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Holydiver
Stranger
Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 5,156
Loc: The midnight sea
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
#4876153 - 10/31/05 05:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: won't begininer questions still spill into intermediate and upwards into advanced?
Beginner questions don't spill into advanced as it is, why would they spill into an intermediate forum? If questions appear that aren't in sync with the topics covered for that specific forum, then they get moved back to where they belong.
Quote:
afoaf said: furthermore, by moving slightly more advanced discussion out of the forum robs those users of the experience of observing discussions and discourse on techniques and problem solving. unless of course they come into the intermediate forum and beging to observe and participate...
How would they be robbed of the experience? We aren't suggesting that anyone needs a certain post count to view and/or participate. The advanced forum offers material way over many heads, but there are still tons of users that participate, regardless if they are of skill level to or not.
Quote:
afoaf said: you've simply made basic cult obsolete by putting the interesting conversations in a seperate forum
Nothing is being made obselete, if anything, the material will be managed better and made more accessible to all. The problem is that we have a lot of material that isn't beginner, or necessarily advanced, but right in the middle. People that want to discuss the middle material are getting frustrated, because their posts are being drowned out from "Hey, is this a good strain?" type of threads. There's too much traffic in the beginner forum.
-------------------- To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.
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srgtm1a
Stranger
Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 2,625
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
#4876169 - 10/31/05 05:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread because it starts off on somewhat of a bad foot, but I'm curious...what is it about creating an intermediate forum that helps to mitigate unwanted traffic and gets questions answered?
won't begininer questions still spill into intermediate and upwards into advanced?
breaking the problem into two tiers doesn't do anything to solve the root issue (if there is one), does it?
if 83% agree that they need a intermediate forum because they are tired of all the repetition and laziness, doesn't that imply they would be spending their time in the middle forum, avoiding the beginers forum and leaving basic cult void of many of the voices that were helping to answer questions in the first place?
furthermore, by moving slightly more advanced discussion out of the forum robs those users of the experience of observing discussions and discourse on techniques and problem solving. unless of course they come into the intermediate forum and beging to observe and participate...
in which case, you've simply made basic cult obsolete by putting the interesting conversations in a seperate forum and left the users with the most real need for guidance without many of the supportive voices they used to benefit from.
I knew the start of this thread would put a lot of people off from reading it.
but no, the beginner stuff will not flood over into intermediate. Those threads will have to be moved, and some strict rules will have to be applied about the posts.....like I said, at the beginning, it will be a little rough but it will work out for the best in the end. But if you read the posts that mainly pertain to the forum split, and not the arguing, you will get a better understanding.
It will be up to the members that have a problem with the way things are to make sure that the beginner forum does not go unanswered.
because of the arguing at the beginning of this thread...i'm afraid a lot of it will fall on deaf ears....which is very unfortunate.
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Simisu
taken by gravity
Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 5,435
Loc: Israeli in
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Anno]
#4876659 - 10/31/05 07:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anno said: I don't exactly see how a beginner forum will help combat the laziness of certain individuals. IMO the better solution would be to make the Cultivation FAQ www.shroomery.org/faq even more comprehensive and better.
The fact is, you can't learn about a complex subject by starting a new post about every little problem you occur underway. You learn by STUDYING faq, books and the post archives in order to get the big picture. By creating a beginner forum you only encourage the laziness.
i agree with anno... i remember when i first came here and tried to make sense of the FAQ... i got lost in all the information (which is non liniar to say the least...) what i tried to do is get a mental picture of EVERYTHING i'll need how i can get it and what it takes to make it work... i ended up following a VERY short guide (off site... in hebrew) discribing in general the PF tek... now... if i was stupid and lazy i'd probably fail with the "little things" sterilety and such but i kept searching every time i had a little doubt about a certine process... it wasn't easy but i had patiance and time... most of the annoying noobs don't! so if it's not presented to them in such a way that it can't be missed they'd rather ask in the forums!
i think maybe rearanging the FAQ to a more liniar type thing with LESS pages and less pages like "do i need a pressure cooker"... that question can be answered as part of another section (making the substrate sterile for inoculation) that takes alot of work though... having compiled my guide from misc posts and a rudementary FAQ i know it does it's a labour of love
anyway that might be a good start... but again i strongly segguest having some "mother threads" that noobs can stick to or maybe even asking noobs to post all their questions in ONE thread instead of opening a gezillion threads each time something itches?
-------------------- Shrmery Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum
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Prajna
ReliablyUnreliable
Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 588
Loc: Proud Canadian
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Simisu]
#4877142 - 10/31/05 08:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey guys, I agree wholeheartedly with the thread starting off on the wrong foot hurting the real issue.
I feel it was wrong of me to bring the problems I had with the closure up so publicly and have said as much to one of the parties involved. The other wouldn't accept an apology anyway so I haven't even bothered.
I have deleted all of my original posts, and publicly and privately asked for the good information that's here to be moved to a new thread.
In short, I was in the wrong to start it this way, I accept full responsibility, and I really am doing my best to rectify things so that we may get over it.
Please though, to bring it up further just exasperates the problem and turns us off track from the real issue again.
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Prajna
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Loc: Proud Canadian
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
#4877205 - 10/31/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Back on issue though, anno and otto bring up excellent points. Perhaps things could be solved with updating the FAQ's and leaving the forum the way it is. Someone mentioned an compendium to the FAQ with all of the top beginners questions ie. "which strain is most potent", etc. I think that this is an excellent idea as well.
Perhaps these things would go far enough to answer these questions on there own, and subsequently bring down traffic. It would create far less work for the mods to do this I would think then to organize a completely new forum.
It really is something to consider.
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
#4877264 - 10/31/05 09:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prajna said: It would create far less work for the mods to do this I would think then to organize a completely new forum.
It really is something to consider.
Yes, that really is something to consider indeed! Upon the request of HolyDiver, I've been keeping an active eye on these threads - however at the current time I feel that this task would take such an obscene amount of dedication, coordination, and constant activity by the moderators of the given cult forums, that it will not be feasible unless all the current moderators are on the same page from the get-go.
I also agree that some FAQ robustification would be much more worth the effort, including organizing some of the current database into a "Beginners FAQ" that will comprise information in a step-by-step format for ease of understanding while continually growing upon the previous knowledge gained (instead of forcing a user to wade through a plethora of documents that are seemingly unrelated to the naive cultivator).
Good posts in this thread.
-------------------- -------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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MycoCat
a.k.a. ShroomCat
Registered: 10/09/03
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
#4877705 - 10/31/05 10:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just posted my opinion in a separate thread called "Cultivation Forum Quiz", so some of you migrate over there and tell me what you think.
I am of the opinion it is the only practical solution offered yet, as the mire that the forums would become for the moderators trying to figure out what criteria to judge a beginner by would be ridiculous.
-------------------- No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious. Meow.
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Prajna
ReliablyUnreliable
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
#4877914 - 10/31/05 10:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
geokills said:
Quote:
Prajna said: It would create far less work for the mods to do this I would think then to organize a completely new forum.
It really is something to consider.
Yes, that really is something to consider indeed! Upon the request of HolyDiver, I've been keeping an active eye on these threads - however at the current time I feel that this task would take such an obscene amount of dedication, coordination, and constant activity by the moderators of the given cult forums, that it will not be feasible unless all the current moderators are on the same page from the get-go.
I also agree that some FAQ robustification would be much more worth the effort, including organizing some of the current database into a "Beginners FAQ" that will comprise information in a step-by-step format for ease of understanding while continually growing upon the previous knowledge gained (instead of forcing a user to wade through a plethora of documents that are seemingly unrelated to the naive cultivator).
Good posts in this thread.
Geo thank you for watching the threads.
I think that if the best thing that can come of this is a solution that does not include a split then it is important to at the very least admit that there IS a problem, and take some kind of corrective action.
I as well as many others thought that the split would be best, and I have argued it to the best of my ability, but it is more important sometimes to do what you can do, then do nothing. It was never my intention to present an "all-or-nothing" position on this issue so I think that you and the other mods are to be absolutely commended for making an effort to do what it is in your power to do.
It has become obvious to me that the will of those at the top is not to have a split. If so then there will be no split, it is my only wish now to have that known to the membership to stop the snowball that this issue has become as soon as possible.
It has taken a course that is no longer constructive and this is well evedenced by the most recent postings about it in the cult forum.
I would also like to say that there are quite a few of us who will help the effort in anyway possible, if asked.
Thanks again for listening.
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MycoCat
a.k.a. ShroomCat
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
#4877988 - 10/31/05 11:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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So instead of a split or a solution, the problem is going to continue to be ignored?
I understand this has been gone over numerous times, but can someone tell me why no one wants to actually fix the problem? The fact that so many people ask the same questions does not testify to the retardation of the masses; rather, could it point to a possible failing in the way the Shroomery presents information? The sheer bulk of it makes it problematic for the average grower, so what about the many people who are below average? It is easy to say we don't want them here if that's the case, but what about actually doing something to change it?
If you did split the forum into Beginner and Intermediate sections, and implemented a minimum knowledge requirement to post past Beginner, you would be creating an incentive for those users to learn this information. And since a study guide could be created out of the basic FAQ information the quiz questions would be on, it would be a much more compact and feasible goal for many of those who do not know where to begin.
It seems as though everyone wants what's best for the Shroomery, but we can't continue to ignore the problem without trying to fix it, rather than ignore it. So I think serious thought should be given to a minimum knowledge requirement quiz, as it seems to resolve almost every issue I have read. And if you don't agree with me, please tell me why.
-------------------- No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious. Meow.
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agar
old hand
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
#4878005 - 10/31/05 11:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Without argument - one way or another.
I think the POLL will speak for itself, given time.
Say, in a month from it's start date a vast majority vote for a split in the cult forum, or not.
If not, its a dead issue.
If yes, then some good idea's that already exist, as well as any other good suggestions on the HOW of it, should be set down in a succinct manner, then have another POLL, on the best way to do it - from those suggestions.
Then SUBMIT the matter to ADMIN - for consideration.
This is not some traumatic thing, nor should anyone become irate, threaten to leave, call names, get upset, or develop & maintain the attitude - you can either agree with me, or continue to be WRONG.
Mellow out, do a bong hit, be constructive, interact & see what the silent majority have to say. Isn't PATIANCE a primary part of Mush/Cult.
--------------------
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Prajna
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: agar]
#4878062 - 10/31/05 11:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said: Without argument - one way or another.
I think the POLL will speak for itself, given time.
Say, in a month from it's start date a vast majority vote for a split in the cult forum, or not.
If not, its a dead issue.
If yes, then some good idea's that already exist, as well as any other good suggestions on the HOW of it, should be set down in a succinct manner, then have another POLL, on the best way to do it - from those suggestions.
Then SUBMIT the matter to ADMIN - for consideration.
This is not some traumatic thing, nor should anyone become irate, threaten to leave, call names, get upset, or develop & maintain the attitude - you can either agree with me, or continue to be WRONG.
Mellow out, do a bong hit, be constructive, interact & see what the silent majority have to say. Isn't PATIANCE a primary part of Mush/Cult.
Edited by Prajna (10/31/05 11:34 PM)
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MycoCat
a.k.a. ShroomCat
Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 1,042
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Prajna]
#4878089 - 10/31/05 11:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok, could someone explain to me why we SHOULDN'T have a minimum knowledge requirement to post in cultivation?
All other thoughts notwithstanding, does this not seem like it would have positive results for the Shroomery? Regardless of the split, I don't see why this wasn't implemented in the beginning, because informed Shroomerites won't be asking (as many) stupid questions. I feel like this has gotten lost in the middle of the argument, when really it seems beneficial and capable of solving multiple issues.
I'm going to bed now though, so everyone feel free to ridicule me while I sleep.
-------------------- No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious. Meow.
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DragonShroom278
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: MycoCat]
#4878433 - 11/01/05 02:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I like the quiz. And I like the sample questions in the closed thread over in cultivation.....If we got more of those questions, it would be great. I'm guessing this will put a burden on whoever is going to have to program or do whatever to get the quiz up and running...but hey its an idea.
Why would these things have to be graded? The one I took on that other website automatically returned your results right away....
I think people should think about the most repeated questions they hear, and have one person make up some questions about that topic.
The common problem/questions I see are
Casing Layers (too wet, too dry, how thick, wont colonize, what material is better)
Contams (is this a contam?) (make some questions testing their knowledge of the appearance/smell/ect. of the various contams)
Times (colonizing times, pinning times, fruiting times ect)"is my jar taking to long" "is it normal for my cake to not be done yet" and my personal favorite "its been an hour since I inoculated, and theres no growth yet, did I screw up!!!!"
YIELD.....I think we can all agree on this one..."how much will I yield from my cake? casing? bulk?" ect. .....I think there should just be a question saying "What is the average yield"...if they say anything except "Not possible to determine", there wrong.
Potency....."how do I make my shrooms more potent" "which shrooms will f*ck me up more faster better?".....
I think the shroomery should also promote searching the posts more, because theres only so many problems one could possibly have in this hobby, and with as many members as we have, someone is bound to have asked the question/had the problem before, up to this point I have found someone with the same question/problem I was having by searching the posts.
As for the quiz.....What to do with wrong answers.....eather just tell them they got it wrong and to try again after a certain time? Maybe just have a message saying "you have not met the set requirments to post on this forum, please review the FAQ's and search the posts and try again"..........or something.
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Mcdoopy
Fungus Face
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I think most of the ideas are great and should all be considered. Any feedback from any mods?
Edited by Mcdoopy (11/01/05 03:59 AM)
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shirley knott
not my real name
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Mcdoopy]
#4878857 - 11/01/05 09:16 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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i like the idea of a bong hit. agar has the best ideas
-------------------- buh
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srgtm1a
Stranger
Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 2,625
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: agar]
#4878959 - 11/01/05 09:50 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:
This is not some traumatic thing, nor should anyone become irate, threaten to leave, call names, get upset, or develop & maintain the attitude - you can either agree with me, or continue to be WRONG.
Mellow out, do a bong hit, be constructive, interact & see what the silent majority have to say. Isn't PATIANCE a primary part of Mush/Cult.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: geokills]
#4878994 - 11/01/05 10:06 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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first, robustification!?
did he just say that!?
second, for more recent registrants, this very discussion arises every year or so.
in fact, the reason why we have a disclaimer with links to the faq and whatnot for noobs trying to post in cult with less than 10 posts is because about 3 years ago, a bunch of us made this very same point and prodded the admins to do something to curb the influx of newbies cluttering up cult.
that is to say, this problem has existed for as long as this site has existed and will continue to do so unless you curb the root problem. to me, that root is the fact that the search tools are not easily employed and that the faq is not comprehensive enough.
(though, personally, I find the search tool very effective)
the fact of the matter is that you will NEVER stop the cyclical rise and fall of annoying newbie posts.
so all you can do is continue to set precedent and teach them to fish.
as I stated before...splitting the forums only spreads out the problem, creates more moderator and administrative work and does not address the root issue.
noobs will post in intermediate when they perceive that people have stopped responding in basic cult...even if the very question has been asked a million times before...if they can't find it, they will post.
so you will be left with the same clutter among intermediate discussions and moderators will continue to have to toil, moving threads between adv, intermediate and beginner.
perhaps a couple more mods in cult can help to lock the repetitive threads and direct posters to the relevant bits in the FAQ, Wiki or search engine?
perhaps, if you have an intermediate discussion that is of interest, you can have the mod sticky it or you can add it to your favorites so that you can keep an eye on it...bump as needed.
there will always be stupid noob questions and the cult forum will always become busier at the begining of the school year (as kids move out of mom's house for the first time).
build out the faq, begin a campaign of setting examples and precedent in cult by directing goofy posters to the wiki or faq bits and lock the threads...sticky the important ones or otherwise actively keep them moving.
I haven't seen any argument that has convinced me that the split of forums will actively mitigate the root issues that have lead us to this thread.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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MycoCat
a.k.a. ShroomCat
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
#4879016 - 11/01/05 10:14 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Agreed.
-------------------- No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious. Meow.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: MycoCat]
#4879196 - 11/01/05 10:55 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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that robustification isn't a word or the other thing?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙
Registered: 05/08/01
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Re: CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: afoaf]
#4879227 - 11/01/05 11:01 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I robustify the English lexicon at my own willire
PS. You hit on many of the points I also brought up in [this related thread]
-------------------- -------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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