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CULT FORUM SPLIT
    #4865290 -

Edit:

This is something I should have not made so public. It is a problem that perhaps could better have been dealt with in PM's or through other means.

The thread here is being hurt by this drama. I have deleted it because it is NOT the issue that should be being focused on.

The desire for making changes in mush cult IS.


--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/30/05 10:42 AM)

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Re: I'm pissed... [Re: Prajna]
    #4865434 -

Your thread was locked because...

Quote:
I have already told everyone that the idea of an Intermediate forum was turned down 2 to 2 1/2 years ago...
by my fellow Mods and Admin at that time.

I was all for the split at that time.

I'm not at liberty to say what was said in the Mod forum on this matter.

If you would like to persue this issue further...
I suggest making a thread in the Website Announcement and Feedback forum and asking the Admins to reconsider this issue.

This thread is what I would consider political at this point...
and the Website Announcement and Feedback forum is the forum for such matters.

Basically your not going to get anywhere talking about it in here!~

so I am closing this thread.




I was telling you to post your desires here in this forum...
where they belong...rather than in the Mush Cult.

and don't start this Road's buddies crap!~
I saw several of my buddies that agreed with you in that thread.

the whole point of the matter was this...
if you want changes done on the Shroomery...this is the forum to start in.


tc


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!

Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.


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UNFAIR MODERATION *DELETED* [Re: Roadkill]
    #4865548 -

Post deleted by Prajna

Reason for deletion: Drama



--------------------

Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 12:02 AM)

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Re: I'm pissed... [Re: Prajna]
    #4865614 -

A little revolt now & then is a HEALTHY THING.

As things grow, so do the needs of the community.

Otherwise, the tragedy of the COMMONS occurs.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4861357/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

I don't think this thread (above)should have been locked, as it has to do with how the general cultivation forum is managed.

But, I'm not a moderator (having turned the position down).

The object is - THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT & a need for it.

Who cares if the issue was discussed 2.5 years ago.
Thing change in 2.5 years, don't they. :confused:

As for anyone thinking CHANGE for the BETTER is BAD KARMA. :confused:
Well, they are entitled to their opinion. :wink:
But, a productive member threatening to leave this arena for that reason is IMHO......childlike.......in itself. :rolleyes:

Change doesn't come easy. But, it will. Otherwise the general cultivation forum will become such a mad house, it will no longer be a useful place to learn. Or, advice in - for that matter.


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UNFAIR MODERATION.. [Re: agar]
    #4865934 -

My original intention wasn't to start a revolt...But AGAR is right...

A beginners forum NEEDS to be born.

The original thread was started by me solely for the purpose of a discussion. Specifically for those in the cult forum who have been expressing problems about the current system.

Keep in mind that I WAS NOT here 2+ years ago when this suggestion was brought up originally, so re-hashing it should not be held against me, I had NO clue that this was anything but my own idea at the time that I posted it.

Also in my defense, at the time, it WAS JUST a suggestion, among what I hoped would be many that would come out of the thread. I WAS NOT trying to be a rabble-rouser or start a wave of discontentment with it at all, just the opposite in fact.

But fine Road...if WE can't be heard in that forum than *I* will speak in this one, because I doubt that the general membership will follow the thread here. Perhaps for the very same reason that I am upset at you, a large portion of the general membership here are AFRAID to cross the mods!

Putting my post here is like putting it in the dragons lair, and some will just not speak out in this forum, for fear of reprisals from some who OBVIOUSLY bend their duties to suit their will.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


I would like to refer to segments of another of Ythans posts that can also be found here also, entitled -

"Official Statement On New Forum Creation"


----------------------------------------------------------------------

In this post Ythan said -

Of course all these issues are, to some degree, inherent in running a bulletin board and we can't expect to avoid them entirely. We're not going to sit on a good forum idea just because it might create a little more work for us. The problem is that the vast majority of forum suggestions are redundant because people come at it the wrong way. Instead of asking yourself "What would be a cool new forum?", ask "Which existing forums are overcrowded and how could they be logically split?"


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


I think this applies here.

We are not talking about a request for a forum to be dedicated to Pet care, or Art history... This is the cultivation section of the message board. It is the BREAD AND BUTTER behind what the shroomery is ultimately about! Mushroom cultivation...

The current cult board is for EVERYONE, except those at the very upper echelon of the cultivation food chain, and it is NOT running smoothly.

I think that my post was getting at the heart of WHY it is not running smoothly. It IS time for a split...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ythan expressed in his post -


"We're not going to sit on a good forum idea just because it might create a little more work for us."

--------------------------------------------------------------------



I believe that this is a LARGE part of why the idea is being shot down NOW, before it can even be fully discussed.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

He also said in that post:


For instance, I like PHP programming. If we had a PHP forum I'd be posting in there every day. At the same time, we have the perfectly good, moderately trafficked Science and Technology forum which is absolutely appropriate for PHP discussion. If I want to get more specific, I can head to any one of the numerous PHP developer communities on the Internet. There is no reason to create an additional forum when an existing one would suffice, no matter how cool I think it would be.

On the other hand, if we saw a sudden influx of computer geeks for whatever reason and the Science and Technology forum took off, then we'd have a reason to reconsider.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


This too applies to general cult, only instead of "computer geeks" the influx has come in the form of BOTH intermediate level AND beginner level cultivators.

Which is great for the forum in general, and the sponsors in particular. BUT THE TWO GROUPS ARE NOT MIXING WELL...

The trend toward "newbie bashing" is getting out of hand, and the mods KNOW it, yet nothing is done. I must confess that I am guilty of this myself, although I am normally a very level headed individual.

It is a level of frustration among the intermediates that is causing this trend. Because there is just too much new influx for us to have the kind of quality conversations that we desire.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ythan also said:


We won't create a forum because it's "cool", but we'd definitely create one to fill a void. When it becomes difficult to keep up with the Science and Technology forum because of the glut of PHP topics, then I'll get my forum. Likewise for you guys. Before suggesting a forum, consider: is it really necessary or is it just a "pet" topic of yours?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


General cult is far from a "pet topic".

On any given day, at any given time, if you look at the amount of bodies in the rooms, general cult will have more people in it than ANY other forum.

I also believe that there is a void here, at least for us older "kindergardeners" as someone so affectionately called us recently.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally...Ythan asks...



Would the new forum generate enough traffic to justify its existence?

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Considering that I posted a thread that was directed directly at the "intermediate crowd", and that in a short amount of time it received over 500 views and almost 80 responses, I would say that there is a demand...




So there it is, my argument for why I think that the idea of a splitting of the general cult is an idea whose time has come.

With this said...can someone PLEASE tell me WHY the desire to create an intermediate or beginners forum is such a bad idea NOW, not 2.5 years ago!


On a side note...I think AGAR is right, the bickering on this board will eventually tear it apart, push people away, or just generally degrade it into a state of utter bedlam...

Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 01:27 AM)

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION.. [Re: Prajna]
    #4866426 -

well... like you i've done a whole load of lurking and reading befor i started a grow or became a member
i had enough time and respect, been reading cannabis cultivation forums for years befor i got here and belive me it's the same problame where ever you clicky :smirk:

maybe there's a good reason for making a new forum but even so that might not solve the problame and might infact make the cultivation forums stagnant... you'll get the noob forum that'll look even worse then mushcult is right now, an advanced forum with some interesting posts but probably most post will be stuff that should/could go in grow log and pictures forum
and advanced mycology for the bigguns...

now this might make you a home indeed BUT it would make the noob expiriance a lot worse then it already is...
it's a shame that people are not willing to do the work needed to learn and simply wish that everything will be handed to them spesifically tailored to their needs on a golden platter
but i'm pretty sure there's NOTHING you can do about it (i hope i'm wrong)

personally when i came to the shroomery i didn't bother reading much of anyone alses questions in mushcult (becouse it was all covered in the faqs) and only posted about three or four questions my self
what helped me better was the grow logs forum which made all the words come to life

having only growen mushrooms once (and not even that) i never felt free to give advice but maybe one day when i am finelly able to grow i'll give you a hand with the noobs

also i'd like to ask...
if you were an admin and you just split the forums what would be your guidlines for each of the new forums?


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
      Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
      :sun: Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum :sun:


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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4866767 -

I don't agree with it being locked, as it was a positive discussion for the well being and future of the cultivation forum(s). As it stands, we are losing valuable people because everyone is fed up with the bullshit, off-topic posts, and lazy newbs who refuse to commit any actual energy to the hobby. As Agar stated--a little revolution is healthy. Isn't that what founded this country? The majority are demanding a change, and it's time to look at our options, which may include a split in the forum. That mentality of "this is how it's been, and always will be" is just ridiculous. I'm with Prajna 100%.

FYI, this isn't the way it has always been. Once upon a time, people actually read the grow teks and FAQ, and most invested a tremendous amount of time into learning this hobby, inside and out. This is not the case today, obviously.

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4867002 -

I'm not against change. Just against the way peeps have been treating each other.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony.
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace,Love and Happiness
:heart: HC :mushroom2:

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose..............

I LUV My Greenhouse
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848

My First Pans
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4867006 -

I agree totally with splitting the forums into basic and intermediate. I also was not happy about the thread being locked, it was imperative for it to remain in the cult forums, as it related to them and had given it the most exposure. But it is not under my influence, so I don't see the use in getting upset about it anymore. Whats done is done, and we have to concentrate on what happens from this point on.

The whole comparison of the cult forums to kindergarten, is getting a little out of hand. While there is some grain of truth to it. Even a kindergarten teacher is going to get pissed when the finger paint is out on the table in front of the students, and they repeatedly ask her where it is over, and over, and over, and over again


--------------------
molon labe.

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: lid]
    #4867013 -

I CALL FOR A CIRCLE JERK!


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4867397 -

This is why I don't post in the MC forum any longer. A beginner section would be a great idea.

And

If this wasn't posted in WA&F I wouldn't have seen this.

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Prajna]
    #4867398 -

That thread did have some pretty good suggestions in it for change and I agree with what Agar and yourself, and other users posted in it 100%.

But to say that Roadkill locked it just because of hippiechick's comment, is a little extreme. He is not the kind of person to play favorites, not in my experience with him anyway.

I don't agree with hippiechick's comment or threat to leave the boards, but I also do not think that is the reason the thread was locked.

Road was right when he said that this is the forum that post belongs in...this is where the admins read stuff like that. I don't think the thread should have been locked, but rather moved to WA&F for other mods and admins to read.

That thread had many good suggestions in it. I think a lot of people involved in the cult forums need to read it, as well as other admins, but accusing a mod of playing favorites is really taking away from the initial threads purpose.

I'm sure if you ask him he'd probably move it here for you.

Mods do make mistakes sometimes, it happens, but I don't think it was in any attempt to silence you.

I agree there is change needed, and a possible split in the cult forum, and it was a great thread, just in the wrong place that's all.

I personally have noticed A LOT of the seasoned cultivators have not been posting as much or even at all after this wave of new cultivators. Just by seeing this, I know that there are problems that need to be fixed in the cult forums.

Otherwise, you will have new cultivators giving advice to new cultivators and that is how misinformation begins.

I still try to post and help as much as I can, but with other seasoned cultivators not posting, a lot of questions go unanswered, or answered incorrectly.

Changes are needed in the cult forums, so let's concentrate on that, instead of reasons a thread was locked.

Edited by srgtm1a (10/29/05 03:29 PM)

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4867498 -

This site is going to grow and continue to grow

The site itself must grow so we don't lose any of you good people or your idea's.

I think that everyone has had great input. Hopefuly the people that run this place will listen.

PEACE
:sun:


--------------------
Child of the 60's, Tripping ever since.


:sun:

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: srgtm1a]
    #4867529 -

srgtm1a said:
I know that there are problems that need to be fixed in the cult forums.

Otherwise, you will have new cultivators giving advice to new cultivators and that is how misinformation begins.


what do you think will happen if they split the forums?
the mods can't correct answers all the time or give them... a comuunity such as this one has to have a bunch of people to help along and i assume once a split accours most of you guys will avoide the noob playground (and those who actualy have a question with merit might as well post it in the intermidiate forum right?)
it might solve YOUR problame but it's still just ignoring THE problame...

i'm not against a split though... i'm just making an argumant i think should be considered and discussed
i'm also no a regular poster on the cultivation forums but belive me i've seen enough of those to know EXECTLY what you're talking about and, i've been in the same position to give good advice and refute bad advice as well

maybe the cultivation forums should not be available for posting untill a user has a month old account (but of course viewable)?
what i like about the shroomery was the amount of respect it's members hold to the mushroom... where ever i read people stated over and over how important it is to take this thing siriusly and respct and then respect some more... well... that way they'll have a good month to creat some respect to the issue befor jumping in the BS boat and asking for answers as if they're the only ones in the universe that still don't know what's what and HAVE to catch up NOW!

or maybe we should have a couple or more mods and strict regulation to the cult forum with some added rules?

or maybe split the forums in a diffrent way...
one for setup and equipment questions (also for ideal conditions in each step of growing)?
and one for substrate, spores and culture making (and also to discusse ideal conditions of fruting)?

or something of that sort...


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
      Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
      :sun: Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum :sun:


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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #4867575 -

I have compiled a list of the suggestions that were made on the original thread. I am posting them here to achieve two goals.

Number one is for the mods and the admin guys to see these suggestions and get feedback from the forum membership. So that they may decide to mull them over for future use, and perhaps make some changes, as was the point of the thread.

Two is to show that this WAS a productive thread and that although there are problems, there are also solutions to be had.

If any of my fellow members object to their names, suggestions or comments being posted here, or think I have taken any liberties with what they had said, then please let me know and I will change and/or delete them to your liking immediately.


Prajna

- A three tiered system developed with a Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Level
- A pop up page that a new member would have to ?skip button? through to continue on to post. Limited to a short period after which they are not burdened by it.
- Create a 100% optional test for new members and reward them with a special insignia or something that they can show off to other members to prove that they have mastered the FAQ
- More dialog about the issue in general



Agar

- Establishment of a beginners forum
- Establish a general guideline for types of questions that each forum would cover topically,
- ie)?PF for beginners, bulk substrates for interm...etc?
- More dialogue about the issue in general


Holydiver

- Possible new FAQ - based on the 10 most frequently asked questions asked by beginners and no split.
- Is generally against a split as it would be a logistical problem, but not against the concept of talking about it if it were something that the membership really clamoured for?



Hippiechick

- Ignore repeated posting, and ?stupid? questions, as we have all been there
- More mature members should be more patient
- No one should have the right to bash on anyone for lack of knowledge?a good reminder to those of us who were getting a bit carried away with this?



KisgardfromSRQ

- Create a new search function for non members, as the old one does not produce results as well as the member function.

?Also? having a circle jerk? but I don?t know that that is needed JUST yet?lol



Jarroddupont

- Create a quiz limiting access to the boards, based on the FAQ, so that the extreme basics are established for new members before they are allowed to even post.



Wormhole surfer

- A Bit torrent file covering FAQ with video, for those who cannot read and write well, have disabilities, and generally to attract younger members as that medium tends to do?



McDoopy

- Create a volunteer force of members from the board to create the video FAQ



X24

- Create a system in which new members need to gain the privilege to post in more advanced forums



CaptainKirk

- The info is easy to search for as it is, it is a matter of the newer members just not doing it.



ScatmanRav

- In his own words he is ?ALL about a test?
- Strongly feels that some changes should be made, as the current system is keeping him away from the board at times?



Srgtm1a

- Three tiered forum beginner, intermediate, advanced. His topic suggestions:

- Beginner -cakes, kits, silly questions, etc
- Mid - LC, casings, bulk, cloning, etc
- Adv - same as it is now

- Direct links that point newer members to the forum that is most appropriate for their questions.
- Create a new sticky that has links to basic things?his suggestions -

- Direct Link to glossary
- Direct Link to pf tek
- Direct Link to Dunk tek
- Direct Link to verm casing
- Direct Link to 60/40 casing
- Direct Link to 50/50



Cloudcity

- Have more patience for these problems
- Create an update to the existing FAQ, something along the lines of ?FAQ 2005? and sticky it
- Additions to the FAQ to include things such as

- Board etiquette
- Patience in growing, and on the boards, and of it?s importance to the hobby in general
- Respect for other members of the forum

- Other members simply ignoring questions blatantly covered in the FAQ, or alternatively simply posting things like ?do a search?, in response to such questions?with the intention of forcing these members to seek the information themselves.
- Is generally against changing the FAQ, useless as a suggestion in his opinion


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Edited by Prajna (10/29/05 05:52 PM)

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Holydiver]
    #4867637 -

Holydiver said:
I don't agree with it being locked, as it was a positive discussion for  the well being and future of the cultivation forum(s).  As it stands, we are losing valuable people because everyone is fed up with the bullshit, off-topic posts, and lazy newbs who refuse to commit any actual energy to the hobby.  As Agar stated--a little revolution is healthy.  Isn't that what founded this country?  The majority are demanding a change, and it's time to look at our options, which may include a split in the forum.  That mentality of "this is how it's been, and always will be" is just ridiculous.  I'm with Prajna 100%.

FYI, this isn't the way it has always been.  Once upon a time, people actually read the grow teks and FAQ, and most invested a tremendous amount of time into learning this hobby, inside and out.  This is not the case today, obviously.


:thumbup:

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Re: UNFAIR MODERATION [Re: Mcdoopy]
    #4867921 -

Thanks for your input here too simisu. You bring up some good points and it's obvious that you know quite a bit about how a split would work out in reality, not just on paper. And I fear from your first post here that you may be right.

You had asked me what I would do if I were an admin?

I would just realize that there is a problem, read the members view points about it, and then come to a decision whether or not it merited some kind of change...that's pretty much what it needs, at this point, a good looking over.

I would also issue a statement over what types of threads deserved to be MOVED VS. what threads deserve to CLOSED. Just to set the record straight. But I may be a bit biased...lol

You should come over to cult more, man, your just the kind of voice that's needed there.

You have some great ideas yourself, however I think that a "cracking down" by the mods might cause some backlash with the newer members. This might cause the site to be looked at as "heavy handed", or "overmoderated" and put people off.

You sound like someone that is involved with the wider entheogen community on the net, is this really a problem that no one has found a good solution to? Just wondering how the other sites handle these kinds of problems...


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CULT FORUM SPLIT [Re: Simisu]
    #4867989 -

simisu said:
srgtm1a said:
I know that there are problems that need to be fixed in the cult forums.

Otherwise, you will have new cultivators giving advice to new cultivators and that is how misinformation begins.


what do you think will happen if they split the forums?
the mods can't correct answers all the time or give them... a community such as this one has to have a bunch of people to help along and i assume once a split occurs most of you guys will avoid the noob playground (and those who actually have a question with merit might as well post it in the intermediate forum right?)
it might solve YOUR problem but it's still just ignoring THE problem...

I'm not against a split though... I'm just making an argument i think should be considered and discussed
I'm also no a regular poster on the cultivation forums but believe me I've seen enough of those to know EXACTLY what you're talking about and, I've been in the same position to give good advice and refute bad advice as well

maybe the cultivation forums should not be available for posting until a user has a month old account (but of course viewable)?
what i like about the shroomery was the amount of respect it's members hold to the mushroom... where ever i read people stated over and over how important it is to take this thing seriously and respect and then respect some more... well... that way they'll have a good month to create some respect to the issue be for jumping in the BS boat and asking for answers as if they're the only ones in the universe that still don't know what's what and HAVE to catch up NOW!

or maybe we should have a couple or more mods and strict regulation to the cult forum with some added rules?

or maybe split the forums in a different way...
one for setup and equipment questions (also for ideal conditions in each step of growing)?
and one for substrate, spores and culture making (and also to discuss ideal conditions of fruiting)?

or something of that sort...



I really don't think it will be ignored...at least by me anyway. It really will be the job of the people that have a problem with the way things are now to make this work, and it will.

I see what you are saying about people ignoring it, but that is exactly what is going on right now. A lot of seasoned cultivators are not posting anymore because they are put off by a lot of the posts currently being put up.

If there was a "beginners" forum, you know to expect questions like that. I would be more than happy to answer those in an appropriate forum. And it would also bring down the "thread traffic". With the new forum separation, they could see that there is an existing thread that pertains to their question that wasn't already lost on page 2 or higher because of the huge amount of postings.

With the way the current forum is, there is both beginner and middle of the road questions. Some new members may get intimidated, or put off from posting, in fear of sounding dumb, and will often times get bashed for asking the same question, or what others would consider a silly question.

And it is intimidating for a new cultivator to go into a forum and see post about LC's, Agar, G2G, and want to know if they should ask a simple question about substrate.

With a beginners forum they could ask questions like "what is the best strain to start with" etc and not get bashed because of it. Questions like that would be expected and welcomed there. New cultivators, IMO, would be less afraid to post, based on the name of the forum. Makes for a more comfortable environment for them.

Just "ignoring" them if they post a thread isn't going to make them search. If no one answers their question, they will just create another thread when the first one falls to page 2 or higher.

A forum split is needed, and seems to be what most people in the cult forums really want.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4865636/an/0/page/0


It may be a little bit of a rough transition at first, but I think everything will work out for the better in the end.

Edited by srgtm1a (10/29/05 08:03 PM)

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save the drama... for ... no fuck it do away with it. [Re: Prajna]
    #4868003 -

each and every member is important. both hippie chick and pranja have helped me incredible amounts without even knowing it. if hippie chick has sway on a mod, so be it. prajna you might wanna try bein sexy and gettin in good with a mod if you want that kinda clout. theres notthing you can do short of sounding like a baby about this. maybe work your way twords bein a mod and this thing your doin here isnt gonna get you to that position. good luck.


--------------------
X II IV

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Re: save the drama... for ... no fuck it do away with it. [Re: X24]
    #4868061 -

you should be the one "saving the drama"... i'm sorry but your post is pretty much all around wrong!

if anything these kinds of posts show that a user actualy cares... unlike your self (if you cared at all you'd bother READING this thread and comenting on the actual discution rather then the topic name... meh...)

i should actualy simply ignore your post becouse replaying it IS making "drama" but i think it's more important to stay with the topics general direction rather then have you sway it back to it's unfotunate creation...


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