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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4908109 - 11/08/05 08:59 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

So why have you been using the word "lie"?




Because Wilson lied.

Alex213, I realize that you yourself won't believe anything unless an "expert" tells you what it is you are to believe, at which time you will then uncritically swallow everything that "expert" says. Clearly your worship of authority far exceeds that of the average poster here.

The thing is, the rest of us are blessed with the faculty of reason. We are capable of examining the satements Wilson made in public and comparing them with the statments he made to the intelligence community (and even to later statements he made in public when forced to backtrack), and determining that they don't match. That they are in fact diametrically opposed. Being rational beings, we are then able to come to the conclusion that Wilson lied either to the public or to the intelligence community.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4936669 - 11/15/05 12:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Deepdish's question was:

The report also says that the Bush administration rhetoric leading up to the Iraq war was misleading and inaccurate. Does this mean Bush and his administration lied to America?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4940070 - 11/16/05 02:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Come on Phred. You've tried your standard "ignore the point and stick to personal attack" diversionary tactic and it hasn't worked. Now you'll have to calm down and try and think rationally for a change.

What we'd like you to explain is why you believe Wilson making misleading statements amounts to "lying" while Bush making misleading statements about WMD is not lying.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4940545 - 11/16/05 09:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

People who have English as a mother tongue understand the difference, Alex213.

It is correct to conclude Wilson lied because he made conflicting statements about his own personal and direct knowledge --

-- he knew his wife had recommended him for the job yet claimed repeatedly she hadn't (and STILL claims this, astonishingly enough)

-- he knew from his talks with Nigerien government officials that an Iraqi "trade delegation" were seeking to buy something from Niger: something the Nigeriens believed to be yellowcake. He told his debriefers this and told the SSCI this, yet said the opposite in public statements.

-- he claimed he "knew" right away the Italian forgeries were forgeries because the signatures didn't match the dates. Yet the documents he referred to were not unearthed until eight months later.

Bush, on the other hand, didn't know from his personal and direct experience that stockpiles of WMD were no longer to be found in Iraq -- he relied on the same intelligence the Clinton administration had relied on, that the Democrats relied on, that the UN and all the other major intelligence agencies believed as well.

Do you not grasp the essential difference? Because I'm sure the rest of the readers of this thread do.





Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941015 - 11/16/05 12:22 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It is correct to conclude Wilson lied because he made conflicting statements

As I have repeatedly told you, it is only correct in your mind. If you can find any evidence to support your belief that Wilson lied please do so. You claimed the Butler report supported you until that claim was demolished. Butler did not say Wilson lied as you well know.


People who have English as a mother tongue understand the difference, Alex213

Yawn...I presume this is the obligatory childish bit of personal attack?

Are you through now?

Bush, on the other hand, didn't know from his personal and direct experience that stockpiles of WMD were no longer to be found in Iraq -- he relied on the same intelligence the Clinton administration had relied on, that the Democrats relied on, that the UN and all the other major intelligence agencies believed as well.


No, that's utter nonsense. Wild intelligence guess's are not fact and can certainly not be relied on to make a case for war. As the utter rejection of the invasion of Iraq by the UN security council clearly showed. Indeed, as Hans Blix remarked when he followed up on the best "intelligence" America had to offer he found nothing. As Blix put it "My god, if this is their best intelligence what is the rest like". The Bush administration were perfectly aware of this.

Do you not grasp the essential difference?

Do you admit Bush's statements were misleading?

If so, are you are still claiming that Bush believed utterly in every single misleading statement he made? That it was some strange coincidence that every misleading statement he made supported his rush to war?

Because I'm sure the rest of the readers of this thread do.


Presumably you're aware of just how few people share your blind faith in George Bush's "truth-telling".


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4941100 - 11/16/05 12:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213, every point I made above is substantiated by dozens of sources. The New York Times article in which Wilson claimed he found no indication Iraq had tried to purchase yellowcake from Niger is a matter of public record, as is the SSCI report showing that he told his debriefers and the SSCI the opposite.

Same with his oft-repeated claims that his wife had nothing to do with his being selected for the mission. Those claims are a matter of public record, as are excerpts from the memos his wife sent on his behalf pimping him for the assignment.

Same is true for his claims to have seen the forgeries before they had even been uncovered. Again, thoroughly documented matters of public record.

The man lied, repeatedly, but if it pleases you to pretend he didn't, by all means continue to demonstrate for the readers your preference to live a fact-free life.

This is your standard technique, and pointing it out has nothing to do with "childish personal attack", it's a simple statement that those who speak English as their mother tongue understand the difference between lying (which Wilson did, repeatedly, on several issues, even after he'd been caught at it) and relying on faulty intelligence (which Bush, the UN, the Democrats, the intelligence services of every major country and Hussein's own generals did).

There's no point repeating myself on this. Faced with irrefutable evidence that Wilson lied, you choose to cover your eyes and ears, and scream at the top of your lungs "Did not! Did not! DID NOT!" That is of course your right.

Keep on keeping on, Alex213. Don't ever change.





Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941116 - 11/16/05 12:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213, every point I made above is substantiated by dozens of sources

Then you will have absolutely no problem linking us to a reliable source (not one of your famous far-right op-eds) that states "Wilson lied".

Linking us to this sentence in the Butler Report would be a good start.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4941137 - 11/16/05 12:51 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Links have been provided Alex213, as you are well aware. But since the SSCI report doesn't use the exact phrase, "Wilson lied", you somehow feel this shows he didn't.

I understand that you yourself are incapable of drawing conclusions without some "expert" telling you what to think, but the rest of the native English speakers who read this forum do not lack that capability.

I will allow them to draw their own conclusions on the matter.





Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941156 - 11/16/05 12:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'd like someone a little less, shall we say, "biased" than you to state Wilson lied. That's all. A single, independent verifiable source that supports your position.

And that doesn't mean Ann Coulter or whichever far right goon you've been reading this week.

Nice dodge on the Bush stuff btw.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4941187 - 11/16/05 01:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

And yet again you demonstrate your inability to draw your own conclusions. What is this obssession you have with relying on other people to do your thinking for you?

If you're playing poker and your opponent lays down three Queens and claims he has four, do you call in a poker "expert" to check he really has four Queens?




Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941198 - 11/16/05 01:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What is this obssession you have with relying on other people to do your thinking for you?


Nothing to do with other people doing the thinking, I simply don't believe you tell the truth.

You claim to have many sources that support your position. I have asked you to provide a single, independent, verifiable source that states Wilson lied. What is your problem in doing so?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4941214 - 11/16/05 01:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So you won't believe Wilson lied until someone tells you "Wilson lied". In other words, you are incapable of drawing the simplest conclusions on your own.

I rest my case.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941238 - 11/16/05 01:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I certainly won't believe it just because you say so if that's what you are hoping.

You have claimed you can support your position. I have asked you to provide a single independent, verifiable source to do so. Why are you unwilling to do so?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Alex213]
    #4941260 - 11/16/05 01:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Your inability to draw simple conclusions from well-established facts is amusing for a while. When you draw it out as long as this, it merely gets pathetic.

I could provide dozens of links to sources saying Wilson lied -- links that are not by Ann Coulter or Sean Hannity, but you would claim they were "right-wing goons" so why expend the effort? Especially when it's plain for all who do possess an actual decision-making capability that Wilson did in fact lie, repeatedly, about several different matters.

For the sake of your peace of mind, I sincerely hope you are never called for jury duty.





Phred


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Invisiblecateyes
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941301 - 11/16/05 01:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

who can draw a conclusion without using/relying on facts to help come to a decision?

rational people rely on facts/evidence to come to conclusions


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: cateyes]
    #4941337 - 11/16/05 01:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

And the facts/evidence are matters of public record.

It's a simple matter of contrasting Wilson's statements made to the SSCI with his statements made to the NYTimes or in his hilariously misnamed book.






Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941477 - 11/16/05 02:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here
http://media.nationalreview.com/081686.asp
http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=5630
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1509007/posts
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20082

"An additional mystery surrounding Wilson?s mission was the impetus behind it. In an interview with Wolf Blitzer, Wilson identified an infamous set of forged documents -- provided to the British and the CIA by a dubious ?stringer? -- as the sole basis for his trip:



?The trip I went on was based upon a transcription of these documents that were later shown to be forgeries.?



The only problem with Wilson?s supposition is that the forged documents would not be in the hands of the intelligence community until seven months after he had been sent to Niger, a fact which directly contradicts his public assertions. When interviewed on the matter by staffers of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in 2004, Wilson admitted to being the source of a front-page June 12, 2003 Washington Post story, written by Walter Pincus, in which Wilson -- referred to as a ?retired American diplomat? -- stated that he knew the documents were false because ?the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.? Senate investigators then reminded Wilson that it was simply impossible for him to have seen the documents, considering he had never been allowed access to them. Wilson later admitted he may have ?misspoken,? but continues (as of this writing in early November 2005) to repeat the allegation in the press.



Since Wilson?s charge that he had in fact seen the documents directly contradicted the sworn statement of several CIA officers, Senate investigators saw fit to dig deeper into his claims. Even after additional questioning, CIA officers in the Directorate of Operations (DO) were adamant: they had not provided Wilson with any of the documents he claimed to have read and dismissed as irregular. Asked again about the documents, Wilson could only suggest that Agency ?sources? -- which he was unable to identify -- had given him his information.



One would expect that, given his purported findings -- or lack thereof -- Wilson would have left the CIA officials who he briefed upon his return with the impression that the Niger-Iraq story was categorically false. However, Wilson?s brief -- which he never saw fit to write down -- actually confirmed the Niger-Iraq connection in the eyes of the CIA officers who heard it. As Senate investigators would later report, the CIA deemed Wilson?s information meaningless, except for the confirmation that he provided that Iraqi officials had indeed visited Niger in 1999, and that a former Nigerien Prime Minister had told Wilson that he felt the Iraqis were interested in buying uranium. None of these pertinent facts were included in Wilson?s eventual public statements concerning his trip, a rather telling omission.



Ms. Plame



Robert Novak?s July 2003 identification of Ms. Plame as an employee of the CIA immediately raised the question: had she played a role in procuring the assignment for her husband? Wilson and his allies were effusive in refuting the very idea that Plame had anything to do with sending him to Africa. In his book, he writes ?Valerie had nothing to do with the matter,? while deeming speculation on the subject as ?bullsh*t.? Spokesmen at the CIA concurred, responding to press inquiries by stating, ?she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment.? Still, the mystery lingered, especially since even a cursory reading of Wilson?s resume reveals that he possesses no background whatsoever in weapons of mass destruction. Why then did the Counter-Proliferation Division (CPD) of the CIA?s Directorate of Operations see fit to send him to Niger in the first place?



Finally, a full year after the controversy first erupted, the Senate Select Committee report provided some answers. Not surprisingly, their findings indicated that Wilson had flat-out lied to reporters and interviewers, as his wife was shown to have played an instrumental role in procuring the assignment for her husband. According to the committee report, Plame initiated the process by authoring a memo addressed to the Deputy Director of the CPD on February 12, 2002, in which she alluded to her husband?s ?good relations? with government officials. In order to further stoke the CIA?s interest in utilizing her husband, Plame then facilitated a meeting between Wilson and a senior CIA officer."


Oh well.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4941627 - 11/16/05 03:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the links zappa, but since none are from Michael Moore, Democratic Underground, Jonathan Pilger, Robert Fisk, smashthestate, or Noam Chomsky, Alex213 will continue to pretend Wilson didn't lie.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Libby Indicted. Libby Resigns [Re: Phred]
    #4941818 - 11/16/05 04:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

He can pretend all he wants, but as long as there are good and honest men to point out the obfuscations of the Alex(insert any combo of 132 here) hegemonic lie corporation we can all sleep safely knowing that his corporate lie machine is thwarted in it's goal of global untruth monopolization. Fight the power, brother. Right on.


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