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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4854507 - 10/26/05 02:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

Really, got a figure?



No, but judging by the occasional thread here about deserters found and jailed...





I think the amount of deserters is around 5,000 since the war in Iraq began. Seeing that our military is about 1.4 million strong, that would leave

0.003 % of the military as deserters. Sorry, just wishing for the breakdown and failure of the U.S military won't cause it to happen.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4854517 - 10/26/05 02:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
We couldn't attack the North

Come again? You dropped more bombs on South and North Vietnam than were dropped during the second world war. Not to mention the agent orange and napalm. You don't call that "attacking"?




We had to approve targets by the fucking president. The military did not have control over operations, and weren't given the right to move into north vietnam and destroy the threat. Again, ring around the rosie Alex.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Could you tell me what the objective of the Vietnam war was? Because I've read american generals at the time asking LBJ what the objective was and LBJ didn't know.




The politics of the war were disgusting. But our military fought it gallantly. Isn't that what we were talking about? The military duties in Iraq and how its performing?


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4857656 - 10/27/05 02:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We had to approve targets by the fucking president

You're not getting this loon. More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than were dropped during World War II. Are you telling me the President approved each bomb?

But our military fought it gallantly

You ever seen that film of little kids running screaming with their flesh hanging off thanks to napalm? Is that what you call "gallant"?


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4858358 - 10/27/05 09:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
We had to approve targets by the fucking president

You're not getting this loon. More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than were dropped during World War II. Are you telling me the President approved each bomb?




No, I'm telling you the president had to approve targets before we bombed them. Just as I've said before.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You ever seen that film of little kids running screaming with their flesh hanging off thanks to napalm? Is that what you call "gallant"?




How about the limbs hanging off the French kids during the invasion of normandy? What a sham that was, huh?

I suppose no war will ever have been justified, as long as Alex can appeal to emotion for a point that isn't even related to the argument.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4858874 - 10/27/05 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Elaborate Clausewitz!



There's no need to elaborate, I just need someone with the ability to comprehend simple questions. Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements? A simple yes or no would suffice, but since you insist on fantasizing that the U.S. triumphed in Viet Nam, I don't think I can expect that from you.

Quote:

We were in a defensive position.



In actuality, the U.S. had chosen sides in a civil war. North and South Vietnam were the result of outside imperial forces working to secure control by propping up local people in power in compliant regimes.

Quote:

You mean the communists from the north, were the "indigineous people"?



News flash (for the historically impaired), U.S. forces destroyed villages and often couldn't tell who the enemy was so they shot at anybody.

Quote:

No, the military isn't in the buisness of persuading others to stop attacking.



War IS the continuation of politics by other means (Clausewitz). If you are not able to keep the peace, you have not won the war.

Quote:

No there wasn't a pronounced decrease in military engagements.



Wow, finally some honesty!

Quote:

The North Vietnamese had high morale and continued their assault in light of heavy losses.



Don't forget that the indigenous personnel were PISSED at Americans for destroying their villages and indiscriminate killing. It was not all 'North' Vietnamese, contrary to revisionist thinking.

Quote:

They were pushed around and straighjacketed by Washington.



Right, I guess the scorched earth policy is what you call, 'straighjacketed.' Have you ever read the Aesop fable about sour grapes?

Quote:

But, the mission that they did have they carried out successfully.



The proof is in the pudding. You don't have proof on your side, just the history of a quagmire and plenty of dead soldiers. Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4858960 - 10/27/05 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements? A simple yes or no would suffice, but since you insist on fantasizing that the U.S. triumphed in Viet Nam, I don't think I can expect that from you.





Yes, we held South Vietnam. We were not allowed in North Vietnam. No, we didn't see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements.

Now, what effect these factors have on the military performace is mute. Because that is what I was talking about. The leaders did not allow our generals to win the war. Period. I don't expect you to understand. As a self-proclaimed reader of clauswitz you seem unable to discern purely military objectives from the political.

The military continuing to see enemy attacks does not mean they are failing to win militarily. It means the enemy has strong morale. Maybe you should read up on book three, chapter 3 and 4: Moral factors.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
In actuality, the U.S. had chosen sides in a civil war. North and South Vietnam were the result of outside imperial forces working to secure control by propping up local people in power in compliant regimes.




No, it was an ideological war between communist Soviet Union and China and the U.S. Vietnam was stuck in the middle, and it was unfortunate for them.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
The proof is in the pudding. You don't have proof on your side, just the history of a quagmire and plenty of dead soldiers. Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.




There is lots to learn from vietnam. One is that at the homefront we need strong resolve. Two is that the tactics used to defeat us have shown to be implemented in the future in our current war. Three that the military needs to be given clear objectives and the means to carry them out in order to ensure victory.

What have you learned? (I already know)

1.) to hate your own country
2.) to accept defeat at a whim


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4859635 - 10/27/05 04:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
What have you learned? (I already know)

1.) to hate your own country
2.) to accept defeat at a whim



Wrong (yet again).

1.) Disagreeing with actions of those in power does in no way equate with or translate to hating your own country. Only fools believe otherwise.

2.) Being against unwarranted military action does in no way equate with or translate to accepting defeat at a whim. Only fools believe otherwise.

What's worse than being ignorant? Not knowing that you're ignorant. You haven't the foggiest idea as to the extent of your ignorance regarding those you disagree with. Though it may boost the simple ego of one possessing a shallow and dull intellect by assigning wrong-headed characterizations to those he disagrees with, it does not help him to advance his understanding, nor does it help advance his arguments.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4859768 - 10/27/05 05:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
What have you learned? (I already know)

1.) to hate your own country
2.) to accept defeat at a whim



Wrong (yet again).

1.) Disagreeing with actions of those in power does in no way equate with or translate to hating your own country. Only fools believe otherwise.

2.) Being against unwarranted military action does in no way equate with or translate to accepting defeat at a whim. Only fools believe otherwise.

What's worse than being ignorant? Not knowing that you're ignorant. You haven't the foggiest idea as to the extent of your ignorance regarding those you disagree with. Though it may boost the simple ego of one possessing a shallow and dull intellect by assigning wrong-headed characterizations to those he disagrees with, it does not help him to advance his understanding, nor does it help advance his arguments.




I'm ignorant, have a simple ego, and a dull intellect. Is that all?

I really love how you are obsessed with me. It is quite flattering.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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