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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4854994 - 10/26/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)


this view that analysis provides a cure that antidepressants doesnt is part of the illusion of a mind-body split.


how so? that's like saying there's no difference in getting over a break up with a significant other by drinking yourself into obvlivion or by realizing you don't need to dwell on the past.

the brain is[i/] the combination of its chemicals, neurons etc.

i think it makes more sense to say that when serotonin increases, an issue is resolved. when serotonin falls, an issue is created. the idea that analysis works on something that drugs don't is inconsistent with the fact that both alleviate symptoms of depression in whichever patient either treatment is effective with.


i don't agree, there is a difference between conscioussly recognizing a psychological problem and eliminating it and taking a drug to raise your mood despite the problem. at any rate, one treatment is riskier and more side affect prone than the other, even if the end result is the same.


yet there is evidence that a person's base level of happiness is largely determined by predisposition/genetics, with temporary deviations being provided through the buffets of fortune.

why is it impossible to think that a person can be born with dysthymia or depression? and that antidepressants could never help such a person?


i never made either of those claims. i simply stated that the evidence suggests antidepressents are one of the most dangerous treatments and not much more affective than placebo. why is it impossible to think that a person could overcome depression without taking drugs? antidepressents aren't indicated for long term use anyway, so if someone is truly born with depression they are not a good candidate for antidepressents.

not every treatment works for every person. many scentists claim that psychotherapy is more likely to work with YAVIS individuals - those who are young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, successful. furthermore, antidepressants are cheaper than many other treatments.

again, this doesn't refute any of the things i said against antidepressents. i am not saying there are no cases in which antidepressents could be benefit a person, i am saying that i do not agree with the way they are currently being used. prescribed to almost anyone who goes to the doctor saying theyve been feeling depressed or anxious lately. what i don't agree with is the philosophy that as soon as you feel something unpleasant, it means you have a chemical imbalance and the solution is a pill. this a dangerous and irresponsible philosophy to promote and yet it is exactly what the drug companies are doing. are you shy? you need paxil. feel a little nervous? ask your doctor about celexa. feeling down lately? well we've invented a miracle pill called wellbutrin. can you not see the harm in this type of thinking? it completely denies all personal responsibility. any feeling you have can now be blaimed on chemical imbalance. are you lazy? well its not your fault, you must have been born with an imbalance that makes you lazy. in my experience taking SSRIs did nothing to help me with shyness, anxiety or depression. yet consciously recognizing the underlying psychological causes of these feelings completely elimiated them. how do you explain that? did i have a chemical or did i not? if not how do we tell who truly has a chemical and needs medication and who just needs to make a greater effort in their daily life? there is no test for a chemical imbalance. psychiatrists simply obverse your behavior and then inform you that you must have a chemical imbalance. compare it to antibiotics for instance. if you tell a doctor youve been feeling sick does he simply infer that you need an antibiotic and write a prescription? no! because its recognized that giving antibiotics to people who dont need them is bad, doctors make an effort to do biological tests to show that people actually have a condition that demands antibiotics before simply prescribing them at will.


Edited by Deviate (10/26/05 02:53 PM)


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OfflineTameMe
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Registered: 10/24/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4855137 - 10/26/05 03:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:Humans have been shown to have two types of genes encoding the serotonin transporter. They are designated as the "short" (s) and "long" (l) types. The "short" gene is associated with a LOWER transcriptional efficacy, that is, the gene is not transcribed/translated as easily (e.g. it is not expressed as much).




Does the person with the "short" 5-HTT produce less serotonin, or does it affect the reuptake of the serotonin?


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Offlineart
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4855416 - 10/26/05 04:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am not sure, but I don't think SSRI's work for everyone, so if you do not have a chemical imbalance than they will not work. I only base this off of the fact that when I went to my doctors they said that if Lexapro did not work that we would try something else. I think that is why doctors are so easy to give out SSRI's. Most of the real bad side effects are very rare, and just about every medication I know has rare side effects.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4855814 - 10/26/05 05:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:

Does the person with the "short" 5-HTT produce less serotonin, or does it affect the reuptake of the serotonin?




Good question, and to be honest I don't know the answer (or if anyone does conclusively). However, I would approach the question with two scenarios. Both are based upon "homeostasis" or simply, the body wanting to be "normal" (and have "normal" serotonin levels).

1. We could assume these people have less transporters. This would result in more serotonin (5-HT) in the synapse. Thus, a person would need "less" serotonin.

2. We could assume the transporter is dysfunctional and thus, the neuron has little serotonin (because it is not being taken back into the neuron). Thus, the body may actually produce more serotonin.

a third (and perhaps more likely) scenario focuses on the production of the gene in response to stimuli. I am not sure if this genetic variability effects the actual function of the transporter. Rather, the variants may differ only in the ability to translate/transcribe the transporter. So imagine the following scenario which again, focuses on this concept of homeostasis:

"A person faces an adverse life event. This causes them to be depressed. To combat the depression the body may say: "we need more serotonin stimulation". Sooooo, to get more serotonin, it has to be taken back in, at a greater rate. To do this, the neurons synthesize more transporters. More transporters = more serotonin.

However....since people with the "short" allele have difficulty increasing the transcription/translation of the transporter they are more susceptible to the stress. This scenario would seem to agree with the authors.

Keep in mind though, ALL of the above is my simple speculation. The finding seemed to be significant enough that they could publish it without speculation as to "how" the genetic variation may have led to an increase in depression.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4856437 - 10/26/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

can we even measure serotonin levels?


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4858361 - 10/27/05 07:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Theoretically yes, we can measure serotonin levels. As a practical matter however, it is not done in humans. Rather, we use laboratory animals. Some of the procedures are terminal (lethal). For instance, the microdialysis experiments I do in rats. Not something you'd get a lot of volunteers for.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4859056 - 10/27/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So how do we know then depression is the result of serotonin levels if it isn't even measured in humans?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4862379 - 10/28/05 02:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

because, if they told you that since YOU caused depression and YOU (and only you) can cure it, how would they sell you drugs?

Even the pro-imbalance people have all stated that "if anything, it is a combination of chemical imbalance and emotional trauma".
It doesnt make sense at all... how could one person be GENETICALLY predispositioned to handle traumatic events worse than your "Average" person?
the severity of traumatic events is 100% relative to your personal understanding of existance.
Some people might think that breaking a nail, or getting resin on a nice sweater is a highly traumatic event.
YOU ARE NOT THE CHEMICALS IN YOUR BRAIN!


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4862609 - 10/28/05 06:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, much of the evidence is relatively indirect: Decreased levles of serotonin metabolites in the urine of depressed patients, changes in receptor number/localization in postmortem autopsies etc. (I don't have my references with me at the moment). Another argument for the role of serotonin comes from the drugs themselves. SSRI's bind the serotonin transporter and increase serotonin in the synapse, when this happens depression is usually relieved. Also, there are drugs such as reserpine, which cause a massive depletion of serotonin and monamines. Reserpine can cause depression in otherwise healthy individuals.

As for being genetically predispositioned, you can see the above reference I posted or think about it anecdotally. We inherit physical traits from our parents. In addition, we also inherit personality traits (you may act like your father, or be a jerk like your mom etc.). Why is it so hard to believe you cannot inherit a genetic predisposition to depression?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4863103 - 10/28/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Do you really think that you can inherit the asshole gene from your parents?
You dont think that maybe if your dad is an asshole, and your mom is a lush, that by living with them, and having them set all personal examples and moral precedents for you, that you would have a good chance of becoming...say... an alchoholic asshole?

and for the millionth time, XTC, meth, and crack all affect seratonin and dopamine levels in the brain, and can alleviate depression as easily as any SSRI.

Go back and read the rest of this thread.... we have already covered much of this in detail.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4863895 - 10/28/05 03:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

^yup. except that SSRIs are long acting and crack is short acting there is no difference between taking either of those drug for depression. both impair normal brain functioning and both cause the brain to respond or compensate for their affect and thus CAUSE chemical imbalances rather than fixing them. if taking a an SSRI causes the brain to respond by producing less seretonin (in fact depressed patients on SSRIs were found to have even lower levels of seretonin than non medicated patients), then how does that help anything beyond the initiual overload of serotonin? antidepressents aren't indictated for use longer than 6 months yet most of the people i know who take them have been doing so for years. when you are on drugs long term like that it is not even possible to determine whether they are helping since 80% of severely depressed patients recover in 2 years regardless of treatment. if depression is truly caused a genetic chemical imbalance why is it that so many people recover from it without drugs? how is that possible if they have an imbalance?

depression is not primarily a physical disease, therefore it should be treated a physical disease.


Edited by Deviate (10/28/05 09:54 PM)


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