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OfflineFospher
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The existence of God
    #4852570 - 10/25/05 10:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Many atheists deny the existence of God because it seems illogical to them, a fairy tale made up to escape the "hard facts" of evolution and the big bang, and all energy came from the event and so on. The argument is that all that we see today is a mere happening from chaos, all came from none.

To illustrate my further point, I'd like to make an analogy. The Sistine Madonna,


was painted by Raphael around the 1500's. Now there's no proof that he actually did it. We dont have any evidence that this actually was a painting, even. It could have been a canvas that was found in a man calling himself a painter's possessions, created by a random spill of paint. All the complexity in the picture was mere neglect of someone to properly put the paint in place, and in end result it spilled to create the piece you see in modern museums today. A mere happening of chance.

Or, you could actually trust the manuscripts written about 500 years ago stating that there actually was a man who painted the piece of art.

The beauty of nature could not be created from a single pinpoint of, literally, nothing. Look at the molecular superstructure of a blade of grass, every single cell of it having it's own microworld. Surely there has to be an author? And since there is a script leading to that fact, wouldnt that be the logical thing to believe? Wouldnt it make more sense to believe that an artist has painted a picture than the picture occuring on it's own?

edit: This is an argument of a creator, a theist, not necessarily which one is right, which isnt. Please reply accordingly.


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Edited by Fospher (10/26/05 12:35 AM)

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4852592 - 10/25/05 10:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
The beauty of nature could not be created from a single pinpoint of, literally, nothing.




Yes, it could.

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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852598 - 10/25/05 10:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

jesus fucks children


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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852611 - 10/25/05 10:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Fospher said:
The beauty of nature could not be created from a single pinpoint of, literally, nothing.




Yes, it could.




No, it couldnt.

(Elaborate on a response my thought as a whole, and not single sentences picked out from paragraphs)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of God [Re: DeathCompany]
    #4852618 - 10/25/05 10:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DeathCompany said:
jesus fucks children



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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4852638 - 10/25/05 10:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you'll never convince an athiest to believe in God with an argument like that because they have already closed their minds to the possibility of God existing and therefore will find a reason to dismiss any evidence to the contrary. and because the human mind has the ability to create conflict where there is none its possible to find a flaw in any argument and every philosophy you can possible come up with. And most athiests will go to the ends of earth to find any little thing they can use to reject God, take it from me, i was one most of my life. in fact it took nothing short of the direct realization that everything was God before i was convinced. i had many powerful and convincing experiences before that but i somehow found ways to reject them all. so my point is that if a powerful personal experience of God's glory isn't enough to convince someone, i hardly see any use in rational arguments. athiest is a state of consciousness in which you are hiding from God and in this state it is not impossible to comprehend God, even if he is right under your nose.

note: most religious people are also in this state of consciousness, which causes them to believe God is "somehwere up in heaven" instead of inside them (even though if God is omnipresent he must also be within you).

Edited by Deviate (10/25/05 10:32 PM)

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Deviate]
    #4852669 - 10/25/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
And most athiests will go to the ends of earth to find any little thing they can use to reject God




No, you could go to the ends of the Earth to find any little thing to suggest God and still come up with nothing.

"Anything beyond the limits and grasp of the human mind is either illusion or futility; and because your god having to be one or the other of the two, in the first instance I should be mad to believe in him, and in the second a fool." --Marquis de Sade

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852708 - 10/25/05 10:40 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
And most athiests will go to the ends of earth to find any little thing they can use to reject God




No, you could go to the ends of the Earth to find any little thing to suggest God and still come up with nothing.

"Anything beyond the limits and grasp of the human mind is either illusion or futility; and because your god having to be one or the other of the two, in the first instance I should be mad to believe in him, and in the second a fool." --Marquis de Sade




God isn't beyond the limits of the mind because being omnipresent he exists also within the mind. also its not necessary to go to the ends of the earth to find evidence God does exist, you need only look within yourself (although looking out my window is enough to see plenty of evidence). my whole point is that when i looked out my window as an athiest i interpreted the same sight differently and no matter what anyone said to me id find an argument to counter it just as you have done.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Deviate]
    #4852729 - 10/25/05 10:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So how do you differ between god and intricate biological structure?

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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: DeathCompany]
    #4852755 - 10/25/05 10:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DeathCompany said:
jesus fucks children




Am I supposed to be offended by that? Kid, I've been around atheists and satanists all my life. I'm a big Leftover Crack fan, listen and have been to a ton of shows of bands that aren't exactly christian. I've been exposed to a lot of enviroments, and this belief is the one that makes the most sense. I am not preaching, I am open to all views and opinions to contradict mine. Sounds like you're a little dim-witted and simple to actually have something to say, so you succumb to intimidation.

:laugh:


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Edited by Fospher (10/26/05 01:01 AM)

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852763 - 10/25/05 10:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

why is there a need to differentiate?

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Deviate]
    #4852777 - 10/25/05 10:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If there is no need to differentiate, then your views do not correspond with those of the original poster. He is suggesting an omniscient creator, while you are simply marveling at the intricacy of observable reality.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

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Invisibleyousuck
Stranger

Registered: 05/22/05
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852807 - 10/25/05 10:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
So how do you differ between god and intricate biological structure?




There is no difference. My dog is god and my god is dog.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852811 - 10/25/05 10:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

explain the need to differentiate for the point of view of the orignal poster then

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: The existence of God [Re: Deviate]
    #4852832 - 10/25/05 11:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There is no need, it's just that you both use the term god as if referring to a seperate being, though you have made that clear that that is not your intention.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852869 - 10/25/05 11:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
If there is no need to differentiate, then your views do not correspond with those of the original poster. He is suggesting an omniscient creator, while you are simply marveling at the intricacy of observable reality.




He said both, and his views are suggesting the intricacy of nature and reality and the creator of which. Re-read his first post.

It would be cool, too, if you concentrated on the thought of the original topic and not catching on who said what and if it was correspondent or not.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4852899 - 10/25/05 11:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
He said both, and his views are suggesting the intricacy of nature and reality and the creator of which. Re-read his first post.




I just did, and it still seems he is using the term "god" metaphorically.

Quote:

It would be cool, too, if you concentrated on the thought of the original topic and not catching on who said what and if it was correspondent or not.




I'm not, I was simply asking him for clarification.


I'm off to bed though guys, talk to you tomorrow.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4852918 - 10/25/05 11:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Why doesn't your "god" come forward and admit it's existence?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4852919 - 10/25/05 11:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
I just did, and it still seems he is using the term "god" metaphorically.





Metaphorically? So he was using the word "God" to describe something else? What then?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The existence of God [Re: daimyo]
    #4852933 - 10/25/05 11:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Why doesn't your "god" come forward and admit it's existence?




Because God is a crazy woman.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4853031 - 10/25/05 11:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
And since there is a script leading to that fact, wouldnt that be the logical thing to believe?




In the case of God, multiple contradictory scripts.
Bibles, Vedas, Korans Pankrits, Avestas, etc
Though, its entirely possible God just has a personality disorder.

If you accept that the Grand Canyon is a product of natural forces, namely erosion, which is a blind and random force. Then, why would it be hard to accept that blades of grass came about through random natural forces too?
"Nature sufficeth unto herself; in no wise hath she need of an author." - Marquis de Sade

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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4853248 - 10/26/05 12:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
In the case of God, multiple contradictory scripts.
Bibles, Vedas, Korans Pankrits, Avestas, etc
Though, its entirely possible God just has a personality disorder.





There's also the church of the flying spaghetti monster. This is an argument of a theist, a discussion on who he actually was is another thread. If you dont believe one exists, then it doesnt matter what book says how he was, when he lived, or what he wore, because you dont believe in him anyway.

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If you accept that the Grand Canyon is a product of natural forces, namely erosion, which is a blind and random force. Then, why would it be hard to accept that blades of grass came about through random natural forces too?





The grand canyon is a giant crack in rocky surface. The whole thing was created by random occurrence, so of course, it in itself is chaotic. It doesnt have any structure to it like that blade of grass. There's no life cycle leading to it's existence, no photosynthesis, it's a big hole, a big mess due to erosion.

"Nature sufficeth unto herself; in no wise hath she need of an author." - Marquis de Sade

The whole quote is a bit contradictory to itself. The fact that nature takes care of itself shows it's harmony. Somebody had to draw the blueprints of a world of micro and macro organisms that work in perfect sync with each other.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: daimyo]
    #4853278 - 10/26/05 12:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Why doesn't your "god" come forward and admit it's existence?




A human mind cannot encounter such a being, our mind can never fully comprehend His existence. The end of days perhaps.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4853284 - 10/26/05 12:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:

Because God is a crazy woman.




Haha, well, you never know.


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Invisibleshymanta
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4853382 - 10/26/05 01:09 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Many atheists deny the existence of God because it seems illogical to them, a fairy tale made up to escape the "hard facts" of evolution and the big bang




The big bang takes quite a leap of faith in and of itself. To believe that everything, suddenly and for no other reason than it could, sprang from utter nothingness is a very hard swallow... but they teach it to us is school, so we believe it.

I am a spiritualist. I don't believe in God, though. At least not the god of scripture. I have read, along with many other religious texts, the Bible and I find it interesting because I don't think most people are reading it quite right. Especially Christians. Fact is most of them don't read the Bible much. They go to church and the minister reads it for them, then he tells them what it means... and they believe him. I have a grudge against organized religion. Its too easy a place to bread structures of control.

The funny thing about existing as an aware, thinking, conscious being is that you have an entire universe inside your head. If you can except this than you can realize that you are omnipresent. You are god. Those last three words are the reason why Joan of Arc was burned as a witch. If you have God within you, why go to church? This is why the Buddha smiles.

Sorry about the rant. God took hold of my fingers...

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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4853400 - 10/26/05 01:15 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Those that don't believe in God simply lack a conscious relationship with Him.


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Unagipie]
    #4853423 - 10/26/05 01:22 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Unagipie said:
Those that don't believe in God simply lack a conscious relationship with Him.




exactly what i was trying to say.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: The existence of God [Re: shymanta]
    #4853484 - 10/26/05 01:47 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shymanta said:
The big bang takes quite a leap of faith in and of itself.  To believe that everything, suddenly and for no other reason than it could, sprang from utter nothingness is a very hard swallow...  but they teach it to us is school, so we believe it.




I, as many others, dont. (Sorry, come to me with facts and I shall answer with such, opinions will be treated likewise)

Quote:

shymanta said:I am a spiritualist.  I don't believe in God, though.  At least not the god of scripture.  I have read, along with many other religious texts, the Bible and I find it interesting because I don't think most people are reading it quite right.  Especially Christians.  Fact is most of them don't read the Bible much.  They go to church and the minister reads it for them, then he tells them what it means... and they believe him.  I have a grudge against organized religion.  Its too easy a place to bread structures of control. 




Organized religion gets a lot of bad rep. Going to church, or temple or synagogue can be extremely spiritual if you are there to actually cleanse your soul, not stare at the opposite sex. You dont have to go anywhere though, even Jesus said so!

:grin:

Quote:

shymanta said:The funny thing about existing as an aware, thinking, conscious being is that you have an entire universe inside your head.  If you can except this than you can realize that you are omnipresent.  You are god.  Those last three words are the reason why Joan of Arc was burned as a witch.  If you have God within you, why go to church?  This is why the Buddha smiles.




I've been meditating a lot lately, and when I meditate and have a good session, I can sense the energy of my surroundings, my enviroment. And when Im done, the same feeling is still omnipresent with me for the next few hours. I was meditating before church the other day, and I have never felt such clean, divine energy elsewhere. The place was glowing. I wasn't God, but I felt my external surroundings with my internal senses.

:wink:


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Invisibleshymanta
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Fospher]
    #4853581 - 10/26/05 02:55 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Organized religion gets a lot of bad rep. Going to church, or temple or synagogue can be extremely spiritual if you are there to actually cleanse your soul, not stare at the opposite sex. You don't have to go anywhere though, even Jesus said so!




I agree. :thumbup:

I have been to different Churches.  Some I really liked.  I felt cleansed and spiritually rejuvenated.  Others, I felt like I was at a mascaraed party.  Like everyone was wearing a mask; presenting them self a certain way and believing that because one day of the week they "show" everyone they are good, that they really are.  Myself, I think I will stay with meditating in my personal space.  I find truths there that apply to me, which is the point as I am the center of my universe.

Jesus said a lot of radical things.  I think that is why they killed him, because he was saying things that went against the established church and the way they had people doing things. :mad2:

Quote:

I've been meditating a lot lately, and when I meditate and have a good session, I can sense the energy of my surroundings, my enviroment. And when Im done, the same feeling is still omnipresent with me for the next few hours. I was meditating before church the other day, and I have never felt such clean, divine energy elsewhere. The place was glowing. I wasn't God, but I felt my external surroundings with my internal senses.




Meditation is great.  The part about "feeling your external surroundings"...  I run with a group of martial artists who take this experience and run with it.  Mediation on the self/universe and achieving inner calm can bring vast awareness and understanding that can save you life in a confrontation.  The way a lot of them talk, psychedelics may play a roll.  I won't say the name of the organization.  PM me if anyone is interested in a psychedelic martial art.

Meditation is kinda like praying to yourself.  (at least the type where you quiet you inner dialog)  Though you can meditate on things.  Like God or Christ or what ever.  That's advanced praying.  I don't think people pray long enough.  They close their eyes and say "please god give me a happy life" and that's it.  That's supposed to make something happen?!  Intention can do amazing things... but the catch is, you must INTEND.  Pray for the answer to a question long enough and you will receive and answer. :eek:

I have a little theory.  Here goes:
All of us have it wrong, yet we all have it right.  Every religion is a piece of they pie.  Put the whole pie together and you will see the whole picture.  The moral: when someone offers a bite of their slice of pie except it and offer a bite of your own. :heart:

Thanks for the open minded chat! :smile:

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: The existence of God [Re: shymanta]
    #4853661 - 10/26/05 05:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shymanta said:
The big bang takes quite a leap of faith in and of itself. To believe that everything, suddenly and for no other reason than it could, sprang from utter nothingness is a very hard swallow... but they teach it to us is school, so we believe it.




Actually, with the advent of quantum mechanics, we no longer are forced to believe that the big bang just occured for no reason.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The existence of God [Re: Deviate]
    #4853662 - 10/26/05 05:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Unagipie said:
Those that don't believe in God simply lack a conscious relationship with Him.




exactly what i was trying to say.




So you are referring to a seperate entity?!  :confused:

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