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Offlinepolyfractal
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Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 7
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Sulfite for sterilization?
    #4851261 - 10/25/05 05:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm a hobbyist winemaker that is starting to get interested in shrooms. Ive done the reading to understand how the growing works, but I have a small question regarding sterilization. Everything I've read recommends using a pressure cooker.

However, I have absolutely massive amounts of Potassium Metabisulfite (K-Meta) laying around. This is used in winemaking to sterilize equipment before fermenting (winemaking is also highly sensitive to bacterial infections). K-Meta works, when dissolved in water, by releasing sulfur dioxide. SO2 is a powerful antiseptic and kills just about all strains of harmful bacteria. Furthermore, it is not required to rinse or removed the sulfited object/water (wine in my case) because it naturally disperses.

Now, my question. Would it be possible to soak my percolite and grain and such (the bed that the stuff is grown on) in a sulfited solution? I figure that the sulfited solution (sulfited to around 45 ppm, which is sufficient to kill all bacteria) should be able to deal with all the bacteria in grain. After soaking (24 hrs), the grain can be quickly dried and placed in the jars.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

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InvisibleWormholeSurfer
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 180
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: polyfractal]
    #4851433 - 10/25/05 06:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not too familiar with winemaking, but if you mixed potassium metabisulfite with your grape juice, wouldnt it also kill the yeast and prevent fermentation?

It might kill the mycelium too...

But it does sound like an excellent idea for syringes and other glassware (terrariums, petri dishes, etc)

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Offlineiamgod
just some dudesome where

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Crooklyn, New York
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: WormholeSurfer]
    #4851469 - 10/25/05 06:40 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

You say it kills bacteria, through what mechanism? Also what effects does it have on fungi?


--------------------
If what you seek is truth then drugs can not offer truth. Drugs can offer the truth of drugs.......Altered states. Truth is not an altered state of mind. ~ Big Headed Nice Guy Who Loves You And Your Dog

http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/Flash/Think_It_Over.swf

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Offlinepolyfractal
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Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 7
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: iamgod]
    #4851575 - 10/25/05 07:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The potassium metabisulfate is added to the must (the wine juice stuff before fermentation) 24 hours ahead of time. This kills off all the harmful bacteria. After 24 hours a lot of the sulphur dioxide difuses out of the must, leaving a small amount in the liquid (which is further helpful in keeping harmful bacteria away). Yeast is tolerant to sulphur dioxide in moderate amounts, so this works out nicely.

I'm not positive how sulphur dioxide (SO2, what is released from sulfites when dissolved in water) actually kills the bacteria. I'll do some research. Its one of those things that you just learn to do as a winemaker. Sulfite before fermentation. After fermentation, sulfite and sorbate it (sorbate is a good yeast killer, kills off yeast so the bottles don't continue to ferment and explode).

Unknown to many people, yeast is actually a fungus. So I would hazard a guess that the fungi we want to grow behaves similarly to yeast: that is, tolerant to moderate doses of SO2.

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InvisibleWormholeSurfer
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 180
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: polyfractal]
    #4851631 - 10/25/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

polyfractal said:
The potassium metabisulfate is added to the must (the wine juice stuff before fermentation) 24 hours ahead of time.  This kills off all the harmful bacteria.  After 24 hours a lot of the sulphur dioxide difuses out of the must, leaving a small amount in the liquid (which is further helpful in keeping harmful bacteria away).  Yeast is tolerant to sulphur dioxide in moderate amounts, so this works out nicely.

I'm not positive how sulphur dioxide (SO2, what is released from sulfites when dissolved in water) actually kills the bacteria.  I'll do some research.  Its one of those things that you just learn to do as a winemaker.  Sulfite before fermentation.  After fermentation, sulfite and sorbate it (sorbate is a good yeast killer, kills off yeast so the bottles don't continue to ferment and explode).

Unknown to many people, yeast is actually a fungus.  So I would hazard a guess that the fungi we want to grow behaves similarly to yeast:  that is, tolerant to moderate doses of SO2.




In that case, this sulfite might be useful to eliminate bacteria in poo/straw casing...  :plot:

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Offlinepolyfractal
Stranger
Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 7
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: polyfractal]
    #4851871 - 10/25/05 08:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I talked to someone more knowlegable than I about SO2:

Basically, SO2 binds with H2O to form H2SO4 (for you non-chem people, thats Sulfuric Acid). The actual mechanism of death is destruction of the cell wall.

I was told that it is perfectly possible to sterilize the grain with sulfites, assuming the leftover sulphur doesnt effect whatever is growing.

Also, apparently brewing yeasts are cultured to be resistant to sufites, and that wild yeasts are much less resistant. So, this may not apply to fungi as I originally thought.

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InvisibleWormholeSurfer
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 180
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: polyfractal]
    #4851922 - 10/25/05 08:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

so we'd have to breed some cubensis strains to be resistant to sulfites, eh... that might be worthwile

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Offlineblackout
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Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: WormholeSurfer]
    #4853624 - 10/26/05 03:53 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

campden tablets are sodium metabisulphite. It could work in a LC, I doubt it will do much good with grains and endospores. If doing a cold bleach/lime pastuerisation of straw I sure it would do no harm to add a bit.

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Offlineiamgod
just some dudesome where

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Crooklyn, New York
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: blackout]
    #4854942 - 10/26/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Try it out and lets get some experiments going. I don't have access to any k-meta or campden right now but i'll try to track some down. This is pretty interesting. What effect do you think these chemicals will have on mushroom spores?


--------------------
If what you seek is truth then drugs can not offer truth. Drugs can offer the truth of drugs.......Altered states. Truth is not an altered state of mind. ~ Big Headed Nice Guy Who Loves You And Your Dog

http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/Flash/Think_It_Over.swf

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InvisibleWormholeSurfer
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 180
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: iamgod]
    #4855095 - 10/26/05 03:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I would assume that, like any other living organism, there's some spores that are going to die more easily in the presence of sulfites than others.

We'd need to set-up some kind of protocol to expose as many different spores as possible, and then pick the ones which survive, mate those, repeat, etc. until we get spores that produce sulfite-resistant myc

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Offlineiamgod
just some dudesome where

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Crooklyn, New York
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: WormholeSurfer]
    #4855377 - 10/26/05 04:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Polyfractal, this is a great first post by the way. Would you be able to provide samples of the chems to experimenters? Or any advice on where to procure some?


--------------------
If what you seek is truth then drugs can not offer truth. Drugs can offer the truth of drugs.......Altered states. Truth is not an altered state of mind. ~ Big Headed Nice Guy Who Loves You And Your Dog

http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/Flash/Think_It_Over.swf

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InvisibleWormholeSurfer
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 180
Re: Sulfite for sterilization? [Re: iamgod]
    #4855535 - 10/26/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

iamgod said:
Polyfractal, this is a great first post by the way. Would you be able to provide samples of the chems to experimenters? Or any advice on where to procure some?




Any place that sells beermaking or winemaking supplies should have sulfites

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