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Offlineart
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4843777 - 10/23/05 10:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am sorry if I seem naive, which maybe I am, but I honestly don't know what thoughts caused me to become depressed. Maybe there are some thoughts which I am just not paying attention to. Is it not also possible that there is such thing as a chemical imbalance? I am telling you the truth when I say that I have no idea what caused me to become like that.
Anyways, I have took peoples advice, and looked into alternative methods of dealing with depression. I am not sure what exactly I am going to do yet, but hopefully I will find something.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4844603 - 10/24/05 03:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

the way i see the psyche there is very little possibility there is such a thing as "chemical imbalance" that doesn't have an underlying cause. i am not denying the fact that your neurochemistry plays a roll in how you feel, for example if you take a bunch of cocaine one day and then you feel depressed the next day you could say this was because of the chemical imbalance you created when you altered your brain chemistry with the cocaine. similarly a poor diet, lack of exercise, negative thinking and other bad habbits can all contribute to poor mood and mental state which corresponds to a chemical imbalance in your brain. the point here is that the chemical imbalance is the effect and not the cause. when you balance your psyche the chemicals in your brain will also balance and not the other way around. if you seek to balance the chemicals in your brain while ignoring your mind, youre brain will simply repsond by producing less of whatever chemicals you added to it.

according to my psychology proffesor there is simply no evidence that people become depressed for no reason at all (like a chemical imbalance that randomly occurs beyond there control). as common as depression is in today's society, there is no reason to think all these cases of depression are due to chemical imbalances that can only be corrected with drugs or that that is the cause in your case.

according to freud and all psychologists who practise psychoanalysis, what is unconciousness doesn't change, in order to change it, it must become conciousness (interestingly this correlates extremely well with what they teach in buddhism and other spiritual teachings). so we have unconciouss psychological issues which cause us to unknowingly work against ourselves and this manifests as negative feelings consciousness. the only way to end this process is to become more consciouss, more aware, to know ourselves better. taking antidepressents doesn't aid in this process.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4844901 - 10/24/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

this view that analysis provides a cure that antidepressants doesnt is part of the illusion of a mind-body split.

the brain is[i/] the combination of its chemicals, neurons etc.

i think it makes more sense to say that when serotonin increases, an issue is resolved. when serotonin falls, an issue is created. the idea that analysis works on something that drugs don't is inconsistent with the fact that both alleviate symptoms of depression in whichever patient either treatment is effective with.

Quote:

there is simply no evidence that people become depressed for no reason



yet there is evidence that a person's base level of happiness is largely determined by predisposition/genetics, with temporary deviations being provided through the buffets of fortune.

why is it impossible to think that a person can be born with dysthymia or depression? and that antidepressants could never help such a person?

not every treatment works for every person. many scentists claim that psychotherapy is more likely to work with YAVIS individuals - those who are young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, successful. furthermore, antidepressants are cheaper than many other treatments.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4845029 - 10/24/05 09:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

Pyjamas said:
Are you honestly saying that one shouldn't seek attention and take up smoking crack because it can help deal with depression, yet at the same time drugs can mask the problem?

Depression *IS* a disease and it's rampant. Just because it can't spread like the flu doesn't mean that it isn't a "disease" as you might think it. Try telling someone with a chemical imbalance that their depression is as a result of lack of will power and motivation. It's a result of depression, not the cause.

The best advice i can offer you swift is to try and develop simple routines and stick to them as best you can for as long as possible. Having a plan of action is a great way to get through the day when you are so used to waking up and not really thinking about what's coming next. Eat as healthily as possible. Try and get plenty of fresh air and exercise when you can. Go for short 10-15 minute walks listening to some good music.
Don't get me wrong, your depression isn't just gonna vanish like that but the simplest little things help from what I've seen.

Try this for a few weeks and if you feel better, maybe then would be a good time to talk to someone anonymously about what help you can get to reduce this problem in the future.

Take my word for it, don't start taking stuff like crack. Maybe lay off the drugs altogether. You're young, there'll be plenty of time for that stuff later on. The sheer fact that you mentioned crack psilocyberin makes my blood boil. <b>You idiot! </b>The last thing someone with depression needs is a severe addiction that will only make more problems and at the same time not solve any.

Self absorbed my fucking ass.




why do you so vehemently attack my viewpoint on this, going as far as flaming (reference-- "you idiot!" in above post)? would not a simple dissent have done the job?.......

I never gave any advice to go smoke crack. I dont wish for anyone to smoke crack, especially to "cure" their problems. I know it helps your rant/argument out to villify me, but lets try keep this as civil as possible while not losing the big picture that is "we have all posted within this forum to help swiftrance".

I urge all of you to go truly do some research about this subject...please. True unbiased research, think about it "logically and rationally", ask the simple questions like "what are the statistics and percentage of Americans with depression?".
I could go on and give you mounds of such info, but i dont want to derail this thread, i wish for the focus to remain on swiftrance and his problem.

Swiftrance, please dont just accept that you are a biological and genetical "victim", atleast go research and question exactly what proof there is out there, because i read pages upon pages of newsworthy articles from reputable sources, trying to find someone with concrete proof of the cause of depression.

You were given an easy way out, someone else justifying your misery for you, and you hopped on the answer, without ever questioning it.
Have you read reports, studies, findings current and old which talk about the cause or validity of "chemical imbalance"?

"chemical imbalance" is merely a theory to the cause of depression... why? because it hasnt been proven. There are plenty of other ideas and theories as to the cause of "depression" and i urge you to atleast entertain these other possibilities before trying to find happiness in a bottle, nor is it in a crack pipe.

***back to you pyjamas*** check out the addiction stats on anti-depressants, mood modifyers, amphetamines and anti-psychotics. Maybe even attempt to study some of this information yourself before you attempt to give life altering/scientific advice on a subject you arent learned on.

I am not doing this for fun, nor to be an asshole, nor to stir up shit, nor to argue. I simply feel that there are alternative solutions and various ways of getting at the root of depression, and I want it to be heard because I care just as much as the rest of the people on this thread about "depression" and the people whom are affected by it.




Not to mention the money behind pharmacuticel companies. These doctors are in too.

Set atainable goals and work towards them each time you reach a goal thats self satisfaction. The more you keep doing this the more you acomplish the less time you have wasted self loathing and being introverted. Its ok to be introverted sometimes. But maybe it be good for you to go out and chit chat with some random person. Talking about them only. Learn about others learn to comunicate and reach out. You reap what you sow. You are the master of your mind. Dont let random thoughts control who you are. Cuz you are YOU! not what your thoughts may think you as.

I cant stress enough dont beat yourself up over the thoughts in your mind. Your mind isnt what defines us its our actions and what we have done with our lives. Work Work for the good of all and make yourself happy.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4845524 - 10/24/05 12:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
this view that analysis provides a cure that antidepressants doesnt is part of the illusion of a mind-body split.

the brain is the combination of its chemicals, neurons etc.




And this view provides one with an uncontrollable "chemical destiny"... Do you really think that all of our actions and emotions are controlled by chemicals in your brain.

Quote:

there is simply no evidence that people become depressed for no reason
yet there is evidence that a person's base level of happiness is largely determined by predisposition/genetics, with temporary deviations being provided through the buffets of fortune.

why is it impossible to think that a person can be born with dysthymia or depression? and that antidepressants could never help such a person?




Like I said before, depression and happiness are subjective. Genetics play absolutly no role in feelings and emotions.
What if someone was miserable and depressed because they werent a millionaire and a movie star? would you tell them they need antidepressants, or to get a better grasp on reality?


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4845992 - 10/24/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have a thought that Depression runs through families because of the conditioned communication they use and were also taught by their parents the generation before.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4845993 - 10/24/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Genetics most certainly play a role in emotions and feelings. There is ample evidence showing increases in the rates of "psychological disorders" among relatives of those that suffer from these conditions.

Anecdotally as I grow older I find myself becoming more and more "like my dad". Obviously, environment plays a role but in spite of this you can often see how somone can act like his/her parents or display their personality traits.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4845997 - 10/24/05 02:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So certain people really are doomed then? And the rest would be the "chosen ones"?


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4845999 - 10/24/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

How do you account for people that grew up in abusive house holds...and most likely should turn out crazy and fucked up....but are actually bright and happy people who contribute something positive to the world?


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846017 - 10/24/05 02:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Genetics is only one aspect of this "multifactorial" disorder. The other major "Factor" that is usually focused upon is environment.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846028 - 10/24/05 02:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

so have they actually isolated the depressed gene?


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846070 - 10/24/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No.

For such a complex process (e.g. emotional thoughts/affect), it is likely a combination of MANY genes. In addition the interaction and timing of when particular genese are "turned on" or off during development is also crucial.

There are specific genes however that probably play more dominant roles than others. For instance, there is a genetic polymorphism (e.g. genetic difference)in the serotonin transporter. Humans inherit either the "long" or "short" allele of the transporter. There was a recent study done showing that the rates of depression among a group of individuals were correlated to two things: 1. which allele the person had, AND 2. "adverse life event".

In sum the study found that rates of depression were highest among people who had BOTH: a specific genetic makeup AND were exposed to adverse life events. A nice illustration of the interplay between genetics and environment.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846085 - 10/24/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds pretty speculative.

Even if it was genetic what would be the benefit of using drugs as your only treatment? Yeah maybe they make us think that we are better....but there is just something not natural about it. Are depressed pill eaters going to start making more depressed baby children that will have to take drugs their whole life too?

Reminds me of creepy futuristic movies.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846097 - 10/24/05 02:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Also....the onset of depression usually occurs around the same time for everyone that gets it, right? Shouldn't this hint more towards environmental factors (events that affected our self-talk)?

Or are there ticking depression genes waiting to explode?


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846127 - 10/24/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Actually the study was published in Science. Arguably the most competitive and respected peer reviewed publications around.

The fact that depression has been linked to genetic causes doesn't do much int he way of treatment options. What it does do however, is lend support to a "chemical imbalance" as the underlying cause of depression.

Ideally one wouldn't use drugs as their only treatment. However, it is unfortunate that many people lack the resources to get adequate help. Like it or not, there simply aren't enough psychiatrists to help people struggling with depression. Few can afford houlry visits several times per week. In light of this we are faced with the option of letting someone continue to be depressed, or treat him/her with medication. From my understanding, most people who are clinically depressed live a nearly agonizing life. If a pill could help me deal with it, I'd give it a try considering the alternative (stay depressed).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846137 - 10/24/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Are you sure they used the word cause? I'm guessing they used the word correlation (or atleast they should have).


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846144 - 10/24/05 03:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Pills can send someone into an even worse state than before...especially if not probably diagnosed.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846173 - 10/24/05 03:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You are correct, they made the correlation.

Normally this leads to a "Chicken or the egg" type of situation: (e.g. did a change in the brain cause depression? or did depression cause the change in the brain?)

However, since (in this specific case) the serotonin transporter is inherited and present from birth the correlation suggests that it is involved. The direct involvement however is speculative(e.g. decreased function of a transporter leads to a compensatory increase in an alternative neurotransmnitter, which leads to another compensatory change and so on and so on.).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846315 - 10/24/05 03:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Transporter? Would you mind going into further detail about these genes and what they do?


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4854527 - 10/26/05 12:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, just so you know, the pubmed link to the article which I am referring to is HERE.
Unfortunately you need institutional access and/or a subscrption to get the full text (e.g. be at a university or other type of research facility where access is available).

Since I have no idea of your background or familiarity with neurobiology I'll give you the simplest version of how I interpreted the paper.

As you may know, neurons fire when a threshold "stimulus" is received. This causes a neuron to "fire" and results in the release of a neurotransmitter which can then act on it's representative target. In order to stop the signal however, the presence of the neurotransmitter must be removed. There are multiple ways to do this but one way is simply to take the neurotransmitter back into the presynaptic neuron. In the case of serotonin, serotonin is taken back up into the cell after is has been released. This occurs via the "serotonin transporter". This is also the target of SSRI's, e.g. you can prevent the reuptake of serotonin by blocking the serotonin transporter. The result will be an increase in serotonin.

Not surprisingly, the serotonin transporter (referred to as: 5-HTT) is encoded for by a gene; the 5-HTT gene. If you dive into DNA replication (transcription, translation etc.) you will learn that genes usually have "promoters" (or promoter regions) which, as the name suggests "promotes" the transcription or expression of the gene.

Humans have been shown to have two types of genes encoding the serotonin transporter. They are designated as the "short" (s) and "long" (l) types. The "short" gene is associated with a LOWER transcriptional efficacy, that is, the gene is not transcribed/translated as easily (e.g. it is not expressed as much).

So, in this study they looked at two populations of people; those with the "s" allele and those with the "l". What they found, was that a persons genetic makeup influenced their propensity to develop depression resulting from "adverse" life events. In summary they came to the conclusion that:

1. Having the "s" allele does not necessarily lead to depression
2. Experiencing "Adverse life events" does not necessarily lead to depression. HOWEVER...

3. Having BOTH the "s" allele AND experiencing adverse life events would increase the incidence of depression relative to those having either factor alone.

4. Conversly, people with the "l" are not destined for happiness, but they may be better able to deal with lifes stressors.

Basically, reaffirming the thought of genetics and environment play a role in the onset of this affective disorder.

As with any published study there are bound to be critques/criticsim's. However, as I stated in an earlier post this was published in Science, arguably, the best research journal in the world.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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