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 Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
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 Re: Solipsism Revisited  [Re: wilshire]
#4846877 - 10/24/05 05:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well done.
Phred
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 it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: wilshire]
#4846888 - 10/24/05 06:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
how do you learn? what are you learning about? where did you learn english? or did you invent english? if so, why?
English is nothing other than symbols and sounds. I don't assume they have any reason for being here other than to assist me in rationalizing the unexplainable.
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whether the world exists as an external reality, or only in your mind, there is clearly a part of it which is outside of your control.
I don't claim to have control over a single aspect of reality. I firmly disbelieve in free will.
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so even if we assume for a moment that the world you experience is indeed only in your mind, it is not, even to the most ardent solipsist, all in your conscious mind. in fact, most of it is not. there is a part outside of your control. it behaves a certain way. it can surprise you, or scare you, or teach you. it is an external reality. solipsism offers no way around this final fact.
The duality between inner reality and external reality is a constructed illusion. Once again, sensation is all we have.
It seems to me that your argument is basically saying: "Solipsism can't be true, this all seems so real!"
But in my experience, things never turn out to be quite what they seem.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
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English is nothing other than symbols and sounds. I don't assume they have any reason for being here other than to assist me in rationalizing the unexplainable.
the point is not what that are but where they came from. did you consciously create the english language?
I don't claim to have control over a single aspect of reality. I firmly disbelieve in free will.
what then, controls reality? what creates it?
if it is only in your mind, then it follows that it is created and controlled by your mind, does it not?
The duality between inner reality and external reality is a constructed illusion. Once again, sensation is all we have.
no, according to your argument. sensation is all you have. i am a figment of your imagination. i do not have sensations.
It seems to me that your argument is basically saying: "Solipsism can't be true, this all seems so real!"
well then it is no wonder that you continue believing as you do! you miss my point entirely:
1. you are not consiously creating the sensations you are experiencing.
2. therefore, they come from a place external to your conscious mind.
3. therefore, something exists which is external to your conscious mind.
do you find fault with any of those statements?
did you read the link i posted?
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it stars saddam
Satan
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Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: wilshire]
#4847117 - 10/24/05 07:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
the point is not what that are but where they came from. did you consciously create the english language?
I could thoroughly describe to you the evolution of written language, but it still doesn't rule out the possibility that its all formulated in my mind. I have only experienced English language in its current state, through my own perception. I have no knowledge of the steps taken to develop it other than what I have read in textbooks.
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if it is only in your mind, then it follows that it is created and controlled by your mind, does it not?
Not necessarilly. I have no idea what controls reality. I'm only suggesting that my mind is singularly perceiving and rationalizing it. You mistakenly assume that there must be some author or reason, while I can find nothing to suggest either one.
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no, according to your argument. sensation is all you have. i am a figment of your imagination. i do not have sensations.
Perhaps not. Currently you exist to me only as text on a screen.
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well then it is no wonder that you continue believing as you do! you miss my point entirely:
1. you are not consiously creating the sensations you are experiencing.
2. therefore, they come from a place external to your conscious mind.
3. therefore, something exists which is external to your conscious mind.
do you find fault with any of those statements?
did you read the link i posted?
I don't disagree with any of those statements. What I do disagree with is the suggestion that any of those statements are able to debunk solipsism. I scanned over the article and I will read it in its entirety either tonight or sometime tomorrow.
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wilshire
free radical
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Posts: 2,421
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and if we explore this further, it gets pretty absurd. are you talking to yourself here? who is it that you are trying to convince, and of what are you trying to convince them?
you're talking to a figment of your imagination and trying to convince him that:
1. you exist and he doesn't
2. he exists and you don't
sound a little absurd?
we've already established that there is a part of reality that you do not consciously create. now we have two possibilities. ignoring the absurdness above for a moment, let's examine these two possibilities.
1. it is your "subconscious" mind that creates the reality your "conscious" mind experiences. it has created a universe that abides by certain physical laws. it also understands these laws to a great extent and has created the illusion that other people have understood them too by putting them in books in libraries of its creation. your conscious mind understands few of these laws however. every peice of art you've ever seen was invented by this unconscious mind. all music. all created by this mind. pop in a new record you've never listened to, and *whoop!* the unconscious goes into overdrive creating a work of art. it's a shame you don't have conscious control over this kind of creativity! i could go on and on in this vein, but you get the picture.
2. the universe actually does exist, i actually exist, you actually exist, and we are all a part of it.
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it stars saddam
Satan
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Posts: 15,571
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: wilshire]
#4847157 - 10/24/05 07:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Absurd indeed.
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wilshire
free radical
Registered: 05/11/05
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I could thoroughly describe to you the evolution of written language, but it still doesn't rule out the possibility that its all formulated in my mind.
and if it is formulated in your mind, did you consciously formulate it?
I have no idea what controls reality.
but you would agree that it is outside of the control of your conscious mind?
What I do disagree with is the suggestion that any of those statements are able to debunk solipsism.
what it shows is that the sensations you experience arise by means of a process that you do not understand or have any control over. it is a reality external to your mind. calling it a "subconscious" as opposed to "reality" is a matter of semantics, and the whole thing is very contrived... invented for no other purpose than to be explained away. why not just do away with all of the extra complexity and baggage and call it for what it is?
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: wilshire]
#4847209 - 10/24/05 07:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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The problem is that the whole issue is a semantics argument. At the core of things, conscious or unconscious, the real question lies in whether or not there is truly anything beyond the moment we perceive.
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wilshire
free radical
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At the core of things, conscious or unconscious, the real question lies in whether or not there is truly anything beyond the moment we perceive.
that question is a little different than the one solipsism addresses.
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Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand
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You do not really believe in solipsism or you wouldn't be here arguing with nobody.
If there is nothing external to you, wouldn't you have to be some sort of god being which has existed for an infinite amount of time? What do you think would happen if you tried to kill yourself? Would you die? How can you make nothing from something?
Edited by Amber_Glow (10/24/05 08:23 PM)
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: Amber_Glow]
#4847507 - 10/24/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amber_Glow said:
You do not really believe in solipsism or you wouldn't be here arguing with nobody.
I admit that I do behave as if everything was real, but why not? Solipsism doesn't have a set of rules.
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Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand
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Why should anyone want to talk to you, if you are not respecting our dignity as truly existing beings? You aren't taking any of our posts seriously. Shouldn't people be offended by your great insult that they do not exist? Do you have friends, and can they truly care about you when they know your feelings towards them are completely hollow and selfish?
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: Amber_Glow]
#4847553 - 10/24/05 08:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Of course I am taking your posts seriously or else I wouldn't take the time to reply to them. If you're experiencing consciousness then why do you care whether or not if I'm questioning your reality? Jesus Christ dude...
And yes, while I may not have an abundance of friends, I do have some that are very close to me and with whom I thoroughly discuss my thoughts and beliefs.
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wilshire
free radical
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i don't mean for you to take this as a personal insult, but throwing around "far out" ideas does not make you a philosopher. solipsism is an interesting concept, but it's quickly, easily, and thoroughly debunked. there are no great solipsist philosophers. it's a fallacy. it's something philosophy students today tend to make jokes about, not debate.
http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/philosophy/solipst.html
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: wilshire]
#4847635 - 10/24/05 08:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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No insult taken, but no I am not trying to create the image of a philosopher by initiating this discussion. Simply discussing a logical problem that seems difficult to work around. At this point I still don't believe that solipsism has been (or can be) "thoroughly" debunked, nor do I attribute much weight to the consensus of contemporary philosophy students.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
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Quote:
At this point I still don't believe that solipsism has been (or can be) "thoroughly" debunked...
Well, if you never get around to it, of course it will never be debunked. Since you are all that exists, you are the only one who can debunk the concept. Get off your lazy solipsist butt and get to work at it!
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... nor do I attribute much weight to the consensus of contemporary philosophy students.
... who would be you, since you are the only thing that exists. Stand tall and tell yourself that you don't attribute much weight to yourself. That'll show you!
Phred
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TameMe
Stranger
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: wilshire]
#4847941 - 10/24/05 10:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
i don't mean for you to take this as a personal insult, but throwing around "far out" ideas does not make you a philosopher. solipsism is an interesting concept, but it's quickly, easily, and thoroughly debunked. there are no great solipsist philosophers. it's a fallacy. it's something philosophy students today tend to make jokes about, not debate.
http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/philosophy/solipst.html
Solipsism does seem pretty useless. I mean I like to argue...but this really is just arguing for the sake of arguing. I really don't see anything practical coming from this theory...or anything good.
itstarssaddam: So why bother?
Edited by TameMe (10/24/05 10:15 PM)
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: Phred]
#4849218 - 10/25/05 04:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
It is true it can never be 100% disproven.
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laotzu
daoist
Registered: 10/08/05
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Here's a question. Does it really matter if solipsism is true or not? If solipsism is true, then your mind has created an extremely elaborate illusion in which a large number of things seem to exist independent of oneself and which behave according to certain rules. If solipsism isn't true, then all these things actually exist. But whether they exist or not, the same consequences occur for all of your actions. If you kill somebody and external reality is real, then you fill face certain consequences. If you kill somebody and everything is a construction of the mind, you will still undergo certain consequences because you seem to have no control over this vast illusion that you are experiencing. Everything one experiences, one experiences through the mind. Thus, whether or not the stuff outside of you is real or not doesn't matter; your experience of life is the same either way. I hope I'm making this point clearly; I have to run to class so I don't have time to write a treatise on the subject... if you don't get what i'm saying, just say so, and I'll rephrase.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Solipsism Revisited [Re: laotzu]
#4851328 - 10/25/05 05:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Room full of mirrors....
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