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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified
    #4844271 - 10/24/05 02:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The number of American soldiers killed in Iraq was climbing inexorably towards 2,000 yesterday, with the announcement of the 1,996th casualty since the invasion in 2003. US forces suffered 15,220 wounded over the same period.

Many of the 7,159 soldiers too seriously wounded to return to duty have injuries that would have killed them in previous conflicts.

The significance of the milestone is that it comes at a time when support in the US for military action in Iraq is dwindling. There is no sign of insurgent activity diminishing, with 23 US military personnel killed in the past week, mostly by roadside bombs.

Confidence in the US and Britain that soldiers are dying to protect the great majority of Iraqis from a minority of insurgents will be damaged by a leaked Ministry of Defence poll. It shows 45 per cent of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops are justified.

The poll, commissioned by senior British military officers and published by The Sunday Telegraph, reveals a very high level of hostility towards the occupation. It is striking that resistance is common to Shia and Sunni communities.

The survey, carried out across Iraq in August, shows that 82 per cent of Iraqis say they are "strongly opposed" to coalition troops in Iraq. Less than 1 per cent say the troops are responsible for an improvement in security.

The figures help to explain why the armed resistance has found so many sympathisers. Some 72 per cent of Iraqis say they feel no confidence in the coalition forces, 67 per cent feel less secure because of their presence, and 43 per cent say conditions for peace and stability have got worse.

Washington and London have hitherto drawn comfort from the fact that the insurrection is confined to Sunni Arabs. The Ministry of Defence sought to portray the flare-up in Basra last month, when two British soldiers were captured then freed, as a conflict with a few rogue policemen and their supporters.

But the poll, carried out by Iraqi academics who did not know they were working for the British, shows that 65 per cent of people in Maysan province, supposedly controlled by the British army, say that attacks on British and American troops are justified. In Basra the figure shrinks to 25 per cent, but that is still sizeable.

Given that the Kurds, 20 per cent of the Iraqi population, largely welcome the US and British presence in Iraq, the survey reveals negligible support among Iraqi Arabs.

One of the reasons for the verdict is evident from figures on social conditions. Some 71 per cent of people do not get clean water, 70 per cent say their sewerage system does not work, 47 per cent are short of electricity and 40 per cent of southern Iraqis are unemployed.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article321742.ece


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Alex213]
    #4844322 - 10/24/05 02:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Polls don't work the same way in the arab world as they do here... most arab people won't answer polls honestly for fear of reprisals should their opinions become known... as a result, usually it's only the most vocal dissidents who will give answers...


--------------------
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we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4844778 - 10/24/05 08:51 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Polls don't work the same way in the arab world as they do here... most arab people won't answer polls honestly for fear of reprisals should their opinions become known... as a result, usually it's only the most vocal dissidents who will give answers...




well done but do you actually have a source other than your opinion?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: GazzBut]
    #4844787 - 10/24/05 09:07 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ahh...statistics...bending mathematics with ones own opinion.........they are only reliable 50% of the time  :smile:


--------------------
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OfflinePhred
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: GazzBut]
    #4844873 - 10/24/05 10:29 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It would be interesting to see a second source for the Independent's assertions. I can't help but note the paper reports the poll was done not by professional pollsters, but by a research team from an Iraqi University. The paper also makes no mention of the number of Iraqis questioned, the margin of error, the distribution of those questioned, etc. I am presuming this is because they don't have the entire poll available to them -- just "leaked" results from it.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Phred]
    #4845276 - 10/24/05 01:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

My guess is Iraqis are more likely to answer honestly to other Iraqis rather than occupation forces pollsters.

Very interesting that less than 1% feel the troops are helping security.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Alex213]
    #4845287 - 10/24/05 01:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

So much for "collateral" damage!


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: looner2]
    #4845297 - 10/24/05 01:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Come again?


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Alex213]
    #4845313 - 10/24/05 01:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think he means that not enough innocent Iraqis were killed - if they would have been totally wiped out, the empire wouldn't have to worry about their opinions or their fighting against invaders.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4845315 - 10/24/05 01:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ah....


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Alex213]
    #4845363 - 10/24/05 01:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Very interesting that less than 1% feel the troops are helping security.




Very interesting indeed, with regards to the quality of your source. Seems to be an suspiciously small number.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineUnagipie
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Registered: 08/11/05
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Phred]
    #4845370 - 10/24/05 01:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What does it matter if Iraqis support attacks on coalition troops or not?


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4845676 - 10/24/05 02:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
I think he means that not enough innocent Iraqis were killed - if they would have been totally wiped out, the empire wouldn't have to worry about their opinions or their fighting against invaders.




There are no innocents. There never were any innocents!


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: looner2]
    #4845719 - 10/24/05 03:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

There are no innocents. There never were any innocents!

How many innocents were in the world trade center when it fell?


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4845757 - 10/24/05 03:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Very interesting indeed, with regards to the quality of your source

What do you mean? A nationwide poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defence? Can't see them wanting to find results like this. If anything you'd expect the opposite.

This is the first poll I've seen that's been carried out by Iraqis rather than foreigners. Perhaps people are more willing to be honest under those conditions.

Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troops
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 23/10/2005)

Millions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, a secret military poll commissioned by senior officers has revealed.

The poll, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence and seen by The Sunday Telegraph, shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one per cent think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country.

The survey was conducted by an Iraqi university research team that, for security reasons, was not told the data it compiled would be used by coalition forces. It reveals:

? Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;

? 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops;

? less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;

? 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;

? 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;

? 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...xportaltop.html


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Alex213]
    #4846021 - 10/24/05 04:33 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i can't imagine what its like to be an iraqi right now, with roving bands of syrians and saudis running around with machine guns demanding this and that from the populace, telling them they'll die if they help the americans... then americans coming through with machine guns demanding this and that from the populace...

who in their right mind would answer a poll in that situation? if you say you like the americans, and the insurgents get wind of it, somebody will come to kill you... if you say you like the insurgents and the americans get wind of it, they haul you off to abu gharib...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Registered: 06/26/05
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4846107 - 10/24/05 04:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleLos_Pepes
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Registered: 06/26/05
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4846150 - 10/24/05 05:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

We Need American Troops
Thank you for liberating my country. Please don't leave before the job is done.

BY JALAL TALABANI
Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

BAGHDAD--There is no more important international issue today than the need to defeat the curse of terrorism. And as the first democratically elected president of Iraq, I have a responsibility to ensure that the world's youngest democracy survives the inherently difficult transition from totalitarianism to pluralism. A transformation of the Iraqi state and Iraqi society is impossible without a sustained commitment of soldiers from the United States and other democracies.

To understand why, let us recall how we reached this juncture in history. How is it that Iraq today has a democratically elected head of state, government and Parliament? How it is that members of the most repressed ethnic groups now hold the highest offices of state? All these welcome developments are a result of the courage and vision of President Bush and his allies, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Australian Prime Minister John Howard, leaders whose commitment of troops to enforce U.N. Security Council resolutions liberated Iraq.





Without foreign intervention, the transition in Iraq would have been from Saddam's bloodstained hands to his psychopathic offspring. Instead, thanks to American leadership, Iraqis have been given an opportunity of peaceful, participatory politics. Contrary to the new conventional wisdom, Iraq and the history of 20th-century Europe demonstrate that force of arms can implant democracy in the most arid soil.
The rapidity of the democratization and reform of Iraq is staggering. There was no German state for four years after the Second World War. By contrast, Iraq has moved from a centralized, one-man dictatorship to a decentralized, federal republic in half that time.

Inevitably, there have been stresses and strains. In Iraq these have been amplified by the terrorism of the remnants of the fascist Baathist dictatorship and our interfering neighbors. To contain these tensions, and to defend our young democracy, requires the support of American and other troops. Foreign forces are needed to train and equip the new Iraqi armed forces and to give Iraq its own counterterrorism capability. Only the United States and its closest allies are able to provide such assistance.

Creating these Iraqi forces has not been easy, but Iraqis have been undaunted by the difficulties. Every terrorist attack on Iraqi forces leads to a surge in military recruitment--the opposite of the appeasers' myth that resisting terrorism causes more terrorism. For all the short-term problems, the soundness of the long-term strategy of building up Iraqi forces was demonstrated in recent days when Iraqis took over sole control of security in the holy city of Najaf.

As Iraqi forces gain in confidence and capability, so the need for foreign troops will diminish. The number of foreign troops will be determined in consultations between the Iraqi government and its foreign allies on the basis of operational requirements.

American forces are in Iraq at the invitation of the democratically elected government of Iraq, and with the backing of a United Nations Security Council resolution. Your soldiers are in my country because of your commitment to democracy. Moreover, during my visit to Washington, Mr. Bush reaffirmed the United States' complete support for the Iraqi political process toward sustainable democracy, and for the fight to defeat fascist and jihadist terrorism in Iraq.

That commitment to liberty has shaped our opposition to any timetable for withdrawal. There are also two practical, policy reasons to avoid such a scheduled reduction in foreign troop numbers. First, a timetable will aid the terrorists and tell them that all they have to do is wait. Second, military plans must be flexible. We should have the suppleness to respond to the often-changing level of terrorist threat. Indeed, we will require ongoing security assistance in many forms for many years to come.

If we keep progressing at the present rate, Iraqis may be able to take over many security functions from foreign forces by the end of 2006. That is not a deadline, but it is reasonable aspiration. During my visit to the United States, I was fortunate to meet relatives of some of the brave troops serving in Iraq. They were staunch, and I want their loved ones to have to serve in Iraq not a moment longer than is necessary.





Americans should be proud of what its soldiers have achieved. The presence of foreign forces has prevented a renewed civil war in Iraq--renewed because there has already been a civil war in Iraq. For 35 years, Saddam and his Baath Party made war on the Iraqi people. The liberation of Iraq ended that civil war.
Above all, American forces provide Iraq with a much-needed deterrence capability. In the past, Iraq sought an illusory security through the follies of aggression, terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. Today, our external security comes from our alliance with the United States. Our neighbors can thereby be assured that we will settle all of our differences with them peacefully.

Sadly, some of our neighbors have chosen not to understand this. They seem either unwilling or unable to shut off the pipeline of terrorists crossing into Iraq. And in addition to what is at least passive support for the terrorists, some of them are providing financial and material support to them, too. They must desist from this behavior now.

While the problem of some of our neighbors supporting terrorism is bad enough, we can only imagine what our neighbors might have done if American troops had not been present. Most likely, Iraq would have been transformed into a regional battlefield with disastrous consequences for Middle Eastern and global security.

Without American forces, the vision of American leadership and the quiet fortitude of the American people, Iraqis would be almost alone in the world. With its allies, the United States has provided Iraqis with an unprecedented opportunity. Iraqis have responded by enthusiastically embracing democracy and volunteering to fight for their country. By giving us the tools, your troops help us to defend Iraqi democracy and to finish the job of uprooting Baathist fascism.

Mr. Talabani is president of Iraq.



http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007289


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: Alex213]
    #4846345 - 10/24/05 05:52 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think LP just posted all of the pro American respondents in your assinine and ignorant little poll.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 45% of Iraqis think attacks on occupying troops justified [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4848526 - 10/25/05 02:29 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

in your assinine and ignorant little poll.

Contrary to what your mind appears to be telling you, it's not "my" poll. It's the British Ministry of Defence poll.


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