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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Right-wing collectivism
    #4838415 - 10/22/05 03:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Collectivism" is a term most often applied to the political left, usually perjoratively by the "individualists" of the right. I find it rather hypocritical to see this only applied to the left, as I can see several examples of collectivism on the right, even among those who often accuse others of it. Here we shall define collectivism as the personification of groups of people and raising their interests above those of individuals. Here are some examples:

Nationalism: The assertion that one should identify with one's nation, and hold its interests above one's personal interests as well as those of others. Often, this implies conformity to government policies.

Racism: Identifying with one's race, and asserting its interests as being in conflict with those of other races. Dividing people along racial lines, and often asserting the superiority of one's own race.

Corporations: This is more an example of de jure collectivism, in that these collective entities are legally recognized as legal persons. They donate money to candidates and are treated in lawsuits as individuals, yet no individuals within them are held responsible.

War: This is often related to nationalism. In war, individuals are sent to fight and die for this collective entity known as a country. They are told they are fighting for "freedom," though their freedom is rarely actually at stake.


Notice that in each of these, each collective entity supposedly has its own interests. A true individualist would have to argue that only individuals can have interests. Now, I am not necessarily saying that individualism is always correct and collectivism is always wrong, nor vice-versa. What I am saying, however, is that those who do consider themselves had better re-examine their beliefs.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Silversoul]
    #4838494 - 10/22/05 03:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

All good points. In fact, in the past, my driftings toward a more rightwing perspective have coincided with strong collectivist feelings.

Very recently, as I've learned more about evolution, I've fallen deeply in love with a sort of collectivism (definitely not the kind that's usually described here, or even in the dictionary, so maybe I need to come up with a new word). Make no mistake, it's part of our biology.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Silversoul]
    #4838738 - 10/22/05 05:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You are quite right to point out the Left doesn't have a monopoly on collectivist ideals. Fascism is a rightist ideology, and it is certainly collectivist. Same with Nazism.

This is why in my discussions here I will often use the term "collectivist" rather than "Leftist" or "Socialist".


Phred


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Phred]
    #4839750 - 10/22/05 11:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think a major point here is that we tend to think of ideological descriptions of being polar opposites of each other (I.E., left vs. right). The way ideology plays out is often different than stated standards of such politics.

It's the major problem I see in politics today; ideas aren't judged on their merit, but rather where the person/idea falls in the ideological spectrum... or at least the perceived spectrum.


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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.


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Offlinenonick
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Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Twirling]
    #4840180 - 10/23/05 12:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Now, I am not necessarily saying that individualism is always correct and collectivism is always wrong, nor vice-versa."

why aren't you saying that? you should be saying that.

Edited by nonick (10/23/05 01:01 AM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: nonick]
    #4840520 - 10/23/05 04:28 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Why should he be saying that? It's silly to make definite statements on things you can't check. There could quite possibly be effective or very intelligent examples of collectvism.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: nonick]
    #4840948 - 10/23/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Collectivism is not always bad. It will often help a group rally around itself and pull itself through rough times, when it may not have originally been able to.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Redstorm]
    #4840972 - 10/23/05 10:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Isn't any group necessarily a collective and isn't any action they take necessarily collectivist?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4840995 - 10/23/05 10:56 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Technically.

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Offlinenonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841092 - 10/23/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Collectivism is not always bad. It will often help a group rally around itself and pull itself through rough times, when it may not have originally been able to."


by definition, a "group" cannot do anything. the very definition of a group prohibits that. a group is an aggregate. in this case, an aggregate of individuals. it is incorrect to state, "the group decided x" rather, it is correct to state, "individuals working together in group A decided x"

collectivism, which is defined as sacrificing your values for the "values" of some undefinable group, is irrational. your life as your moral standard prohibits you from promoting things that are not good for you, such as sacrificing your values for something that doesn't even exist.

for more information, just check out http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Ethics_LifeAsMoralStandard.html

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: nonick]
    #4841193 - 10/23/05 11:55 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That is pure an utter nonsense. If people share the same values and beliefs, they don't have to give up anything when they group up together.

Also, sometimes it may be profitable to give up something when you are going to get something more in return.

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841440 - 10/23/05 01:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

All those opposed to the war on terrorism are members of Al Qaeda.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4841447 - 10/23/05 01:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Nope.

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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Right-wing collectivism [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4841532 - 10/23/05 01:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

prospective members*


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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