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Alex213
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Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging?
#4832670 - 10/21/05 12:15 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Remember the referendum? Last weekend the world's airwaves were full of broadcasts about the success of the voting in which millions "defied the insurgents" by turning out to cast their ballots. Then we heard preliminary but "informed" speculation that the constitution had passed. Majorities of Kurds and Shias had given it enthusiastic support in the north and south-east. In Sunni areas, where voters had been expected to reject it, not enough had come forward to turn it down.
The rule was that if two-thirds of voters in any three provinces rejected the constitution, it would fail. Election officials conceded that two-thirds had done so in the two fiercely anti-American provinces that include Falluja, Ramadi and Tikrit. But Nineveh, which Sunnis share with Kurds and Christians, had not produced a big enough no vote. So the message was: "Sorry, Sunnis. Our constitution is safe."
Along comes a second big Iraqi event: the trial of Saddam Hussein. Manipulating the trial's timing is the real story. Why suddenly this week? A fortnight ago, at Chatham House in London, Iraq's president, Jalal Talabani, said he did not know when the trial would take place. Within days a date was fixed, conveniently diverting reporters' attention from the referendum count. With the issue out of the spotlight, it is a fair bet that when the official result is declared - perhaps today - the announcement that the constitution has passed will be treated as pretty dull since we already "know" that from the weekend leaks by Condoleezza Rice, Jack Straw and the Iraqi government.
How could they be sure, since counting was not yet complete? Was the fact that the count would be flawed the real thing they knew? Was the trial an improvised political device to get rigging out of the headlines?
On Monday some Iraqi election officials were beginning to say they had come upon major irregularities and suspiciously high Kurdish voter turnouts, in places exceeding 95%. Below the radar of the Saddam Hussein trial, more questions have been raised. Turnout figures in such cities as Najaf doubled from an initial figure of 45%. In Nineveh and Diyala, another province with a Sunni Arab majority, officials initially talked of startling yes votes of up to 70% in each. Later, they changed the Nineveh figure to say the no votes had won - but the figure was only 55%, and so below the crucial 66% threshold for rejection.
In a rigorous analysis for the Inter Press Service, the American scholar Gareth Porter questions even that figure. He says it is based on an unbelievably low turnout among Sunnis. It implies that Nineveh's Christians, who had declared their opposition to the constitution in advance, changed their mind on the day. He quotes a US military liaison officer who used to work there as admitting that Kurdish officials, who have long vied for control over Mosul, Nineveh's main city, and inflate its population figures, stuffed ballots in January's election and may have done it again.
Does this matter? The constitution will be declared to have passed, because the Bush administration wants it passed. It paves the way for elections in December, which will be spun as further proof of Iraq's gradual democratisation. Yet it will have been bought at a high price. Cheating the Sunnis is not a sensible policy, especially when, out of the other side of its mouth, the Bush administration claims to be trying to get them into the political process.
The fact that large numbers of Sunnis voted last week does not mean they no longer support armed resistance. Reporters in Falluja found voters who said they backed the insurgency even as they cast their ballots. This is logical enough. Iraqis who questioned the legitimacy of the January elections had no option but to boycott. Those who question the constitution's legitimacy had a more complex choice. They could boycott it, as the Association of Muslim Scholars and some other groups close to the resistance proposed. Or they could vote it down. This made pragmatic as well as ideological sense - if you assume the counting will be fair.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1597319,00.html
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: Alex213]
#4833168 - 10/21/05 07:10 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why is his trial begining (after his plea) in late NOVEMBER, if it is supposed to take attention away from voting allegations?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Alex213
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4833359 - 10/21/05 09:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why is his trial begining (after his plea) in late NOVEMBER, if it is supposed to take attention away from voting allegations?
Because it's started in the same week as the referendum result was due?
Or was that just a crazy coincidence?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: Alex213]
#4833387 - 10/21/05 09:56 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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No you are wrong here.
First, the American public has the attention span of a gnat.
If the government wanted the hearing to help blanket voting allegations, the actual, continuous trial, day by day, would be on the docket, right now, not 5+ weeks from now.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Alex213
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4833396 - 10/21/05 10:02 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think so. An awful lot of drama has happened this week. The first shots of Saddam in many months, the charges etc. I doubt many people are going to be so interested in the day by day legal proceedings. Look at how many people even remember what happened in the Milosovich trial.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: Alex213]
#4833414 - 10/21/05 10:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, people are at the most attentive (and therefore,the most distracted from other things) during the trial itself. People could care less about someone's plea. People want the details,the bloodshed, and the verdict. What would most people remember about the Milosovich trail, his plea, or verdict?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Alex213
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Posts: 1,839
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4833420 - 10/21/05 10:12 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, people are at the most attentive (and therefore,the most distracted from other things) during the trial itself
Nonsense. How many people are attentive to the Milosovich trial? The vast majority of the american public probably have no idea what is happening. All they remember is him being charged and the first few shots of him in the dock. Not the years of endless legal argument.
What would most people remember about the Milosovich trail, his plea, or verdict?
You can't time the verdict on Saddam to the week of the referendum result tho. Trials don't work like that. The best thing you can do is make an enormous news splash by getting him to the court.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: Alex213]
#4833445 - 10/21/05 10:23 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, it is very clear, if you wanted to distract America away from voting allegations via a Saddam trial, you would have the actual trial during this time. The allegations are still out there, the trial is not starting till late November.
Plus, Saddam's plea appearance was scheduled for that date, BEFORE voting allegations even occurred.
http://www.africamasterweb.com/AdSense/SaddamDateForTrialConfirmed.html
please note the date of the article, relative to the trial date.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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JesusChrist
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4833471 - 10/21/05 10:36 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Liberals don't care for any election that doesn't go their way.
Take it like a man.
-------------------- Tastes just like chicken
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Alex213
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4833478 - 10/21/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, it is very clear, if you wanted to distract America away from voting allegations via a Saddam trial, you would have the actual trial during this time
Come again? The trial may last years.
Plus, Saddam's plea appearance was scheduled for that date, BEFORE voting allegations even occurred.
But vote-rigging doesn't just happen by accident does it. People have an idea whether they're going to vote rig or not well in advance.
So is your claim that the Saddam appearance in court happened in the same week of the referendum vote purely by accident? If so then there's nothing else I can really say. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: Alex213]
#4833496 - 10/21/05 10:49 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you agree that our troops need to get the fuck out of there? I sure do. The war was just, but mishandled. Stop the killing of our troops!!!!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Alex213
Stranger
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Posts: 1,839
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Re: Saddam "trial" a distraction from vote-rigging? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#4837005 - 10/22/05 02:28 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Doesn't look like there'll ever be any progress with the troops still there. May as well just withdraw and see whether or not the country goes to hell on a shitcart.
All we can do is hope Bush and Blair are tried for war crimes and jailed for the rest of their lives so if any other president and his advisors get a "clever" idea like invading Iraq again they know it won't just be other people suffering instead of them.
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