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OfflineMoxemerald
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4829012 - 10/20/05 10:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"My view on life hasn't seemed to have any impact on my feelings. I know people who have terrible outlooks on life who are not depressed."

Your view on life has everything to do with your feelings. And your opinion of a terrible outlook on life may not be someone else's. When we say view on life we're not talking about "oh im going to grow up and get a job and have a family" (for example), but rather, your automatic responses in your head to certain situations and about people and everything that is involved in your daily rituals.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4831307 - 10/20/05 06:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm, i am not sure if SSRI's would work for a normal person. I will find out though. Just out of curiosity, how do you know that they will work for everyone?

What word?

umm, that is what i said, i knew that i was feeling bad, but i didn't know it was because of depression. I thought everyone, especially teenagers would feel like that.

I will ask my doctor about cognitive behavioral therapy. How do you know that it is better?


I still don't understand how my view on life is going to help me overcome depression. Honestly, i do not think i can change my view. Maybe i am confused on what you mean by view on life.

Most of the things i have been saying have been my personal experience with depression. Not just some information that has been looked up on the Internet, or my theory on something. I know how i feel, i know what i have been through.
If there is a better way to overcome depression than please tell me, i know that i should "change my view" but i really do not understand what you mean. If you can explain it to me, i defiantly will try it. I very well could be wrong, but it is so hard for me to change my beliefs after i have already gone through it.
Even if there are other ways to get through depression, what is so bad about taking SSRI's. It seems like it would be extremely hard to get through depression not using any medication. Especially at younger ages, or in times of despair.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4833575 - 10/21/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I like cognitive behavioral therapy more that is all.

You were using extrensic in a weird way and I didn't think you understood that we were saying it's an intrinsic problem.
Your "view on life" or I'd rather call it your self-talk really does play a big role in determining your emotions. Believe it or not we are constantly talking to ourselves in our head....you may not even be aware of it all the time....changing the way we talk to ourselves can change our emotions.
You say you know you should change your view yet earlier you said you thought your view on life is fine.....i don't understand. Using SSRI's are ok in my mind to use as a tool for awhile...but to use them as your only form of treatment and to use them for a long time...is a mistake in my mind....you can become dependent on them.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4833860 - 10/21/05 12:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Art, what is it that you consider normal? SSRI's affect everyone in the same way, it floods the brain with serotonin. When taking them, you are directly inhibiting a natural brain function.

To attempt to fully explain what understanding and cognitions one has to go through to stop being chronically depressed would be a very long task.
Im not saying that MY view on life is the correct one, nor am i suggesting that you adopt my view. I am suggesting that you re-evaluate your life and examine your own view, try to step out of yourself, observe your own behavior, observe your own hypocrisy, observe human interaction, find out what it is you want in life.
I suggest you change your understanding/perception of existence, because the one you have right now apparently isnt conducive to living a happy life.

and like I said before...what is a happy life? is there a universal answer to that question? Do you guage your happiness against the people you see? the people on television? happiness is attained, it isnt in a pill.
Basically, what i am hearing from you right now, is that you "are genetically predisposed to not be able to enjoy life as much as the next person, which isnt your fault, and there is nothing you can do about it besides taking drugs with multiple side effects."

See how that view is only condusive to defeatist attitudes and depression? Are you not responsible for your own happiness?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4835622 - 10/21/05 06:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

dont have time to read this whole read but just wanted to share my experience. i was depressed a few years ago, antidepressents did NOTHING. they only make it worse because every time you take a pill you only reinforce the notion that there is something wrong with you. getting off the antidepressents was a bitch too. an exhaustive analysis of antidepressent research showed that 34% of people taking antidepressents get better while 32% of people taking placebo get better. the difference is trivial.

to summarize, in my opinion, if you are depressed, psychiatric drugs are NOT the answer. try a lifestyile change, try therapy, try meditation, try yoga, try spending more time outside, try just completely and unconditionally accepting the way you feel and not letting the depression bother you.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4835635 - 10/21/05 06:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i still don't understand what you mean. How should I change my perception of existence, or any of the other things you mentioned. I know that your view on life can cause people to become depressed, but I don't think I have a problem with my view on life. Maybe an example would help clear things up. Do you know anyone who has cured depression by changing their view on life?


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835683 - 10/21/05 06:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Art....how are we supposed to tell you how to change your perception? We don't know what it is you're thinking (saying to yourself) that is making you depressed. What kind of negative thoughts about life do you have?

I have been depressed before...and I'm no longer depressed now...I didn't use medicine.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4835689 - 10/21/05 07:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

When we say view on life...I think you might be looking too broad of a picture....maybe narrow it down to how you view your life and the situations you encounter or how you feel/think about yourself and your relationships.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835760 - 10/21/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
i still don't understand what you mean. How should I change my perception of existence, or any of the other things you mentioned. I know that your view on life can cause people to become depressed, but I don't think I have a problem with my view on life. Maybe an example would help clear things up. Do you know anyone who has cured depression by changing their view on life?




It isnt even really negative thoughts that i am talking about. It is an indescribable understanding which can vary from person to person.

I dont know anyone who was "cured" of depression, mainly because i usually rid myself of people with "depression". Usually when i express my views on the subject they either want to fight or cry.

But I can tell you that all the people i surroud myself with, which have this certain understanding, 100% of them, dont have depression. Now 1 out of every 5 americans is "afflicted" with depression, which would mean that atleast 2 or 3 of my friends should have depression.

If you really want to take advice, i would suggest watching the movie "13 conversations about 1 thing" a few times, if you would like an idea of the "understanding" i mean.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835761 - 10/21/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

. It seems like it would be extremely hard to get through depression not using any medication. Especially at younger ages, or in times of despair.




antidepressents do not improve 2/3 of the poeple who take them. most depressed people get through it without medication. antidepressents are also not indiciated for young people. in england it is illegal to prescribe them for anyone under 18. SSRIs also increase the suicide risk by a factor of 4.


Edited by Deviate (10/21/05 07:18 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835801 - 10/21/05 07:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

Exactly how is one able to be depressed and not know it? subconscious emotions?




interesting concept.

i imagine examining oneself will only yield difficulties if a person finds emotions they've buried.

i think you are right about a person not being able to change their perspective, art :thumbup:

i think often people who talk about looking on the bright side, are afraid of their own dark feelings, and what they mean.  (nothing wrong with being afraid.)

re: ssris, exercise also affects brain chemistry in a way that tends to help with depression.  everything a person does affects their brain chemistry.  humans are part of nature, and so are their creations, if you ask me.

if a person on their path finds wellbutrin helpful, god bless em i say. :heart:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4835968 - 10/21/05 08:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

there are a lot of things in life that i might find helpful and god better not bless me for them.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4836032 - 10/21/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

but crunchytoast, that certainly doesn't mean it is advisable to take wellbutrin for depression. if people find smoking crack helpful should they be given crack? i mean its certainly possible that it could help but why start out with something that studies have shown is not likely to help? according to research antidepressents are about as effective as placebo so why take something that is going to have side effects, be potentially addictive and doesnt really cure the problem if theres no solid evidence it will help? if someone is already taking it and truly feels it is improving their life, i am not going to stand in their way. however i would not in good faith ever encourage someone to start taking wellbrutrin for depression.


Edited by Deviate (10/21/05 08:29 PM)


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4836194 - 10/21/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

where did you get your information deviate? I have never heard of anyone getting addicted to SSRI's, I even asked my doctors about that and they have never heard of that either. The reason people kill themselves after taking SSRI's is due to there increase in energy, a sign of improvement. If a person has a high risk, then they are evaluated throughout the first couple of weeks. Again with the crack, SSRI's are not addicting, and will not kill you! From what everyone else has been saying, SSRI's just release serotonin, so then how can they not be effective if everyone will see an improvement? I am not sure if that is true but i will find out next Friday.



"Art....how are we supposed to tell you how to change your perception? We don't know what it is you're thinking (saying to yourself) that is making you depressed. What kind of negative thoughts about life do you have?"

That is my problem with your theory, I don't think I have any negative thoughts about life. I will try and try and describe my thoughts though. Maybe I am just missing something. I have a negative view on the world as a whole, but I have gotten over that. Although I think this world is a cruel and terrible place, my goal in life is to help other people. I feel that if I can help out one person then my life is not in vain. So although I have this negative view of the world I am very optimistic about my life. I look forward to growing up and being able to experience new things, and to continue to make a good impact on this world.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4836235 - 10/21/05 09:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"according to research antidepressents are about as effective as placebo so why take something that is going to have side effects, be potentially addictive and doesnt really cure the problem if theres no solid evidence it will help?"

it's my understanding that gererally, antidepressants only get approved when they're showed to be more effective in treating depression than placebo, generally in double-blind studies with statistically significant results. you are standing on semi-solid ground if you are taking issue with how much more effective than placebo antidepressants are. it's arguable that most antidepressants aren't "much more" effective than placebo in the short run. yet there is a difference in effect. also, unless i'm mistaken, placebo effects tend to disappear in the long-run.

side effects- i agree a person should consider the side effects before they take an antidepressant.

Quote:

be potentially addictive


are you referring to physical or psychological addiction? i don't know any studies of physical addiction. do you?

as for psychological addiction- i think that's a misunderstood process. scientists have shown that falling in love excites the "addiction" parts of the brain. if you ask me, this doesn't mean that love is addictive, but that scientists have mis-labelled the "addiction" parts of the brain. i'd argue it's the growing-attached-to-something parts of the brain that scientists have noticed get excited during addiction- and they conclude that because this part of the brain gets excited during addiction as the addict grows psychologically attached to the physically addictive drug, that it must be addiction.

IOW, if you ask me, there's no difference between "psychological addiction" and any other kind of growing-attached-to-something, besides the existence of a stigma attached to whatever behavior is in question.

as for your claim that it doesn't cure the problem- what is your evidence for that statement? personally, i havent researched the topic enough to share studies about relapses, but i know a number of people who used antidepressants years ago, and stopped without having serious relapses into depression. (yea i admit, that's merely anecdotal evidence.)


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4836535 - 10/21/05 11:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

today in class my psychology professor told us that an exhaustive review of all the studies done on the effectiveness of antidepressents came up with the result that 34% of patients who take antidepressents improve while 32% of patients who take placebo improve. this difference is trivial and i think this alone is enough to throw out antidepressents as an effective treatment for depression. you'd be far better off if youre doctor simply gave you some sugar pills and told you they were a powerful antidepressent. also keep in mind 66% of patients given antidepressents do not improved. that means if you decide to take antidepressents there is a 66% chance that you are exposing yourself to a potentially harmful drug with many side affects and possible unknown long term consequences for no benefit.

when i said addictive i meant physically addictive, most antidepressents produce potentially severe withdrawal symptoms. it was hell getting effexor and i don't know if i could have done it without weed, tapering did not relieve the withdrawal symtoms i experienced. it took me 4 attempts to get off the drug and i experienced mild withdrawal symptoms for months after wards. all the while i was on it, i experienced no benefits, only side affects. there are countless cases of people who had far worse times getting off their drugs than i did, just do a search to find out some the nightmare withdrawals people have experienced. there are all kinds of reports of weird side effects like elelctric shock feelings in the head and other strange stuff along with worsened depression and suicide ideation. SSRIs have also been demonstrated to increase the suicide rate by 4 and people who have been been considered not at risk for suicide have mysteriously killed themselves while on them. i myself experienced a strange desire to commit sucide several times while on the drug, something which i have never felt at any other point in my life. the feeling was extremely powerful and it was only because i told myself that it was only the drug making me feel that way that i didn't act on it. in general, it is my opinion that being on drugs is undesirable and should always be a last resort. there are so many chemical changes that go on in the body when it is chronically exposed to drugs which the long term affects of are not even known. basically you are slowly poisoning yourself and it was the very feeling that i was poisoning myself that drove me to get off effexor despite the withdrawal.

also as i said before, taking pills every day only reinforces the notion that there is something wrong with you and you don't have the ability to deal with life on your own. there is a much greater sense of accomplishment when you get over depression on your own than when you take a drug.

when i said it didn't cure the problem i meant that there is no evidence that antidepressents cure depression, it is possible they relieve the symptoms for a while but no solid evidence that they cure or correct the underlying problem.

anyway for these reasons i am against the use of antidepressents. they are tremendously over prescribed and harm more people than they help. since i think use is undesirable, comes with great risk and is cleary not very affective i see no reason for someone to take that risk, especially when there are many less risky and statistcally more affective treatments for depression. its possible that that they may help certain people but they should be an absolute last resort, not the first treatment offered to people who go to their doctor and tell him they are depressed. i don't buy into the "feeling blue? take this pill" philosophy. doctors hand them out like candy. it took me one doctors visit and just a few sentences to get on high doses of effexor, my doctor did not even fully inform me of the risks or suggest i try a non drug treatment first. i didn't even have to submit any real proof i was even depressed. there are so many people who think "im not enjoying life, i dont know what to do about it so ill go on one of these drugs" and these are the same people who are still depressed years later and they often end up on multiple medications to treat the side affects of the first drugs they began taking. my proffesor told me hes had patients on as many as 14 different drugs who were still depressed.


Edited by Deviate (10/21/05 11:16 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4836606 - 10/21/05 11:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i'd like to see that study- here are two possible flaws from the information you provided-

*32 vs 34% for ALL anti-depressants. this implies a population of anti-depressants, IOW that some anti-depressants are more successful than the 34% (and some less sucessful). what's wrong with taking a more effective anti-depressant?

*is the measure just of improvement, or was degree of improvement in the study? because if i put a cast on my broken leg, or take a motrin, either one improves my condition, yet plainly one option offers greater improvement than the other.

*anti-depressant effects outlast placebo effects.

"when i said addictive i meant physically addictive, most antidepressents produce potentially severe withdrawal symptoms"
all the people i know who've gotten off anti-depressants, got off without withdrawal effects like you're describing. i'm sure the potential for the withdrawal symptoms are there with most of them; yet that doesn't mean every person will suffer that withdrawal.

"also as i said before, taking pills every day only reinforces the notion that there is something wrong with you"
a person may be experiencing issues where they believe that there's something wrong with them if they're depressed. yet that's dependant on the individual psychology of the person, not the anti-depressants themselves.

"and you don't have the ability to deal with life on your own."
it may be true that a person doesn't have the ability to deal with life on their own because they're so depressed. what's wrong with a person being honest with themselves about that?

"there is a much greater sense of accomplishment when you get over depression on your own than when you take a drug. "
i'm sure this is true in many cases.

"when i said it didn't cure the problem i meant that there is no evidence that antidepressents cure depression, it is possible they relieve the symptoms for a while but no solid evidence that they cure or correct the underlying problem. "
hmm, i dont know of any evidence either. yet if this topic hasn't been studied, then that means it's an open question. who knows.

in any case, anti-depressants nevertheless are certainly useful for treating the symptoms of depression.

"especially when there are many less risky and statistcally more affective treatments for depression"
seems like the best thing to do would be combining antidepressants with other methods such as exercise and talk therapy (assuming the person is prepared for antidepressants' side-effects.)


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4836699 - 10/22/05 12:21 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i wil ask my proffesor about the study or check the book, i havent started reading the book yet but its called "your drug may be your problem" and according to my proffessor it's well written.

antidepressents may be useful for treating the symptoms of depression but that by itself doesn't say much. so are many safer things, so why use antidepressents unless absolutely necessary? heroin is an affective treatment of the symptoms of depression yet no doctor would prescribe it.

i dissagree with the idea that the best treatment would be to combine antidepressents with other methods. explain how that would be better than a succesful non drug treatment. according to my proffesor, patients who were givin a combined treatment of antidepressents and psychotherapy had a greater relapse rate than those treated with psychotherapy alone. if cogntive therapy, psychoanalysis, diet changes and exercise and other non drug methods can be as affective or more affective at treating depression than antidepressents, why risk using antidepressents? why alter body and brain chemistry with a drug whose affects are not even fully understood when it might be completely unecessary? my proffesor also said people on antidepressents are more likely to commit murder and homicide and as i mentioned before, 4 time more lilkely to commit suicde. obviously they have the potential to cause some major behavioral changes and i do not see this as a good thing.

there is no real prognosis for people taking antidepressents either. suppose you take the drug and it works, then what are you supposed to do? stop taking it? this leaves the potential or withdrawal or relapse which often promts peopel to go back on the drug. then you have people on drugs for years and years, this obviously less desirable than finding a non drug treatment. i fail to see any good reasons why antidepressents should be used in situations other than as a last resort.

also i didn't mention that most of the studies on antidepressents were done by the drug companies or paid for by the drug companies and corruption has been exposed in the past. according to my professor, when an article appeared about a drug in a medical journal, if the research was paid for by the drug company making the drug the drug was found to be useful 80% of the time but if the research was paid for by a party unrelated to the maker of the drug , the drug was only found affective 20% of the time. yet even the drug companies own studies don't demonstrate a high rate of affectiveness for antidepressents.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help *DELETED* [Re: Deviate]
    #4837084 - 10/22/05 03:30 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by MJF<p>Reason for deletion: wrote that when i was drunk...

although i was sincere...it did come off to harsh


Edited by MJF (10/22/05 11:47 AM)


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4837776 - 10/22/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

come on man, you don't need to be so harsh. Maybe you are really being sincere, and it is because of the Internet that you sound like you are being a prick. Maybe I seem the same way, but I really do want to learn how to improve my life without meds. From your advice there you are telling me that I just need to grow up to get over my problems, maybe so, but SSRI's have helped me, and I do not want to wait 2-3 years with depression just so I can avoid using some sort of medication.
I know I might ignorant, and stubborn, but I am always apprehensive of people over the Internet. I have depression, I have talked to doctors, and I have talked to friends who contradict some of the things people have said. Obviously I am going to believe a doctor over someone over the Internet.

So are you going to tell me how to change my view on life?


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