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Offlinekotik
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Howard Zinn - People's History
    #4826718 - 10/19/05 09:36 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

anyone else read this book with good / bad things to say?

I just started reading it a few days ago, and I am really enjoying it, although it is really making me feel less and less comfortable about the foundation of our country and etc.

I just got into chapter 5, so I'm not very deep in it yet, but I do like "alternate history," and this one is less sensational than many others I have read...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4826737 - 10/19/05 09:47 PM (16 years, 2 days ago)

I'm very skeptical of people like Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky. Even if they don't outright lie, they have a tendency to spin things in an extremist way, and they're often guilty of omitting important parts of the story(at least Chomsky is -- I'm not as familiar with Zinn). In any case, enjoy the book, but take it with a grain of salt.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Silversoul]
    #4826891 - 10/19/05 10:30 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I have to say (for a new reader of Zinn.. and dare I say somewhat of a "fan" of Chomsky) this book started out with a very upfront statement.

Zinn actually speaks directly to the reader in the middle of a chapter on Columbus.. something to the effect of telling the reader that the book is not intended to romanticize the injustices of history, but rather to revisit them through the lives which history usually omits.. the people.

either way, long live skepticism

Quote:

they're often guilty of omitting important parts of the story




i cant think of a single book on history that isn't guilty of the same charge, for the simple fact that paper, ink, patience and time are all somewhat of a finite resource.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Silversoul]
    #4827838 - 10/20/05 02:15 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
In any case, enjoy the book, but take it with a grain of salt.



Then all US history books should be taken with a grain of salt. They're all either sort of sexually fixated with how wonderful our slave owning forefathers were or how wretched and greedy. Zinn's description being the latter and the one I'm more willing to agree with. Zinn doesn't deny being biased, most other history books do.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4828873 - 10/20/05 11:36 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
In any case, enjoy the book, but take it with a grain of salt.



Then all US history books should be taken with a grain of salt. They're all either sort of sexually fixated with how wonderful our slave owning forefathers were or how wretched and greedy. Zinn's description being the latter and the one I'm more willing to agree with. Zinn doesn't deny being biased, most other history books do.



I agree. I'm just saying take in the whole picture, not just what Zinn is presenting.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Silversoul]
    #4828882 - 10/20/05 11:39 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

" Even if they don't outright lie, they have a tendency to spin things in an extremist way, and they're often guilty of omitting important parts of the story(at least Chomsky is)

can you show me where he does this paradigm?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: barfightlard]
    #4828931 - 10/20/05 11:56 AM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
" Even if they don't outright lie, they have a tendency to spin things in an extremist way, and they're often guilty of omitting important parts of the story(at least Chomsky is)

can you show me where he does this paradigm?



From pg. 14 of Hegemony or Survival:

Quote:

The goal of the imperial grand strategy is to prevent any challenge to the "power, position, and prestige of the United States." The quoted words are not those of Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld, or any of the other statist reactionaries who formulated the National Security Strategy of September 2002. Rather, they were spoken by the respected liberal statesman Dean Acheson in 1963. He was justifying US actions against Cuba in full knowledge that Washington's international terrorist campaign aimed at "regime change" had been significant factor in bringing the world close to nuclear war only a few months earlier, and that it was resumed immediately after the Cuban missile crisis was resolved.



Now, granted that I managed to figure out that this "international terrorist campaign" he refers to was the Bay of Pigs invasion, and perhaps you figured it out too, but a reader who is not as acquainted with history could easily be confused by this passage. Now, this is a minor point, but what I'm getting at is that the extremely partisan language he uses can be very misleading for the reader.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4829022 - 10/20/05 12:33 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Howard is a true writer. Independent mind, fine grasp of history. As an antidote to the mainstream media you can't get much better.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4829056 - 10/20/05 12:51 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I never read the book, but from the reviews I've read it seems like the perfect antidote for patriotism. Nothing invigorates liberals more than a hefty dose of guilt swelling into their gullet. It is just regrettable that some have to be on the receiving end of the vomit that comes immediately thereafter.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Silversoul]
    #4829072 - 10/20/05 12:55 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Alright I understand what you mean now. I just watched a thing on Howard Zinn and he has a editor that goes over his work for just that reason.

You think thats something chomsky would do because I think his message would be best used by the average man who doesn't have an in-depth knowledge of history or profound linguistic skills. silly chomsky


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: barfightlard]
    #4830323 - 10/20/05 05:55 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

I never read the book, but from the reviews I've read it seems like...




:thumbup:


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4830361 - 10/20/05 05:59 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

I never read the book, but from the reviews I've read it seems like...




:thumbup:




Is it any secret? It is written to breed self-loathing. Endulge!


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4831208 - 10/20/05 08:13 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

i have to smile when someone can write a review on a book, based on other reviews they read.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Silversoul]
    #4831255 - 10/20/05 08:22 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

bellylard said:
" Even if they don't outright lie, they have a tendency to spin things in an extremist way, and they're often guilty of omitting important parts of the story(at least Chomsky is)

can you show me where he does this paradigm?



From pg. 14 of Hegemony or Survival:

Quote:

The goal of the imperial grand strategy is to prevent any challenge to the "power, position, and prestige of the United States." The quoted words are not those of Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld, or any of the other statist reactionaries who formulated the National Security Strategy of September 2002. Rather, they were spoken by the respected liberal statesman Dean Acheson in 1963. He was justifying US actions against Cuba in full knowledge that Washington's international terrorist campaign aimed at "regime change" had been significant factor in bringing the world close to nuclear war only a few months earlier, and that it was resumed immediately after the Cuban missile crisis was resolved.



Now, granted that I managed to figure out that this "international terrorist campaign" he refers to was the Bay of Pigs invasion, and perhaps you figured it out too, but a reader who is not as acquainted with history could easily be confused by this passage. Now, this is a minor point, but what I'm getting at is that the extremely partisan language he uses can be very misleading for the reader.




by most standards, what we were doing to cuba and
later nicaragua would be considered international
terrorism.

is the only quarrel that he uses inflammatory
rhetoric to describe things?

where is the ommission...where's the misleading?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: afoaf]
    #4831289 - 10/20/05 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

I'm just saying that the average reader might not know what he's talking about. There's other stuff that doesn't come to mind immediately, but that was the only one that stuck out in my mind enough that I was able to look it up. What I'm saying is that the rhetoric he uses can tend to distort historical facts in a much more shocking way than one usually reads about them. Granted, this can be a good thing in some cases, but I'm just saying that it's a view that needs to be counterbalanced with some actual historical knowledge.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Silversoul]
    #4831313 - 10/20/05 08:38 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

either way, thats chomsky and not zinn, and this is the first time i had heard their names together.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4831320 - 10/20/05 08:39 PM (16 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
either way, thats chomsky and not zinn, and this is the first time i had heard their names together.



Really? They tend to be grouped together quite frequently, as they've collaborated on many books, and together they comprise the most vocal intellectuals of the American far-left.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: afoaf]
    #4832910 - 10/21/05 03:34 AM (16 years, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
by most standards, what we were doing to cuba and
later nicaragua would be considered international
terrorism.



I once had someone tell me Iran-Contra was liberal propaganda.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: afoaf]
    #4833356 - 10/21/05 11:45 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

bellylard said:
" Even if they don't outright lie, they have a tendency to spin things in an extremist way, and they're often guilty of omitting important parts of the story(at least Chomsky is)

can you show me where he does this paradigm?



From pg. 14 of Hegemony or Survival:

Quote:

The goal of the imperial grand strategy is to prevent any challenge to the "power, position, and prestige of the United States."  The quoted words are not those of Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld, or any of the other statist reactionaries who formulated the National Security Strategy of September 2002.  Rather, they were spoken by the respected liberal statesman Dean Acheson in 1963.  He was justifying US actions against Cuba in full knowledge that Washington's international terrorist campaign aimed at "regime change" had been significant factor in bringing the world close to nuclear war only a few months earlier, and that it was resumed immediately after the Cuban missile crisis was resolved.



Now, granted that I managed to figure out that this "international terrorist campaign" he refers to was the Bay of Pigs invasion, and perhaps you figured it out too, but a reader who is not as acquainted with history could easily be confused by this passage.  Now, this is a minor point, but what I'm getting at is that the extremely partisan language he uses can be very misleading for the reader.




by most standards, what we were doing to cuba and
later nicaragua would be considered international
terrorism.

is the only quarrel that he uses inflammatory
rhetoric to describe things?

where is the ommission...where's the misleading?




:yesnod: i wouldn't call it misleading - i'd call it describing an event (bay of pigs, or nicaragua for that matter) from the standpoint of international law. when people make statements that go against the 'mainstream' rhetoric, they are often seen as inflammatory and down-right propaganda - however, in the instance of something like the bay of pigs, Chomsky is more correct calling it 'international terrorism' than a more conservative history book would be calling it 'covert operations' or something like that.

if i wrote a book, and instead of using the term 'collateral damage' i used the terms 'inadvertant murder of bystanders and civilians' would that be bias and/or distorting the truth? or would that description be closer to the 'truth' than the currently accepted one?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Krishna]
    #4833362 - 10/21/05 11:49 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Krishna said:
if i wrote a book, and instead of using the term 'collateral damage' i used the terms 'inadvertant murder of bystanders and civilians' would that be bias and/or distorting the truth? or would that description be closer to the 'truth' than the currently accepted one?




No it wouldn't be closer to the truth because it doesn't make sense. The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together. You might have to redo your sentence. If it still doesn't sound evil enough, load on the adjectives. But whatever you do, don't sound objective.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4833366 - 10/21/05 11:52 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
i have to smile when someone can write a review on a book, based on other reviews they read.




If you only wanted a book discussion, then why post it in this forum? Why not post it in the arts forum? This is politics forum and if you make a thread about a book and describe its general theme, it is asking to be discussed. I went and read reviews and summaries on it and made a post. God forbid? No, I didn't read it and I was wondering if any moonbat would have to make a brainfart comment about it. You win with 2.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833375 - 10/21/05 11:53 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together

Just call it murder then. Unlawfully killing a person.

"Collateral damage" is the kind of bullshit Chomsky and Zinn see through very clearly.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833381 - 10/21/05 11:55 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Krishna said:
if i wrote a book, and instead of using the term 'collateral damage' i used the terms 'inadvertant murder of bystanders and civilians' would that be bias and/or distorting the truth? or would that description be closer to the 'truth' than the currently accepted one?




No it wouldn't be closer to the truth because it doesn't make sense. The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together. You might have to redo your sentence. If it still doesn't sound evil enough, load on the adjectives. But whatever you do, don't sound objective.




but what is objective? from the standpoint of the military, objectivity would be something like 'the inadvertant death of civilians who got in the line-of-fire of military opps', while from the standpoint of the people getting killed, objectivity would be like 'the melting of my brothers skin because some rich fuckwads are fighting each other over our land'

the point i mean to make is chomsky and zinn (and many others) are often seen as extremely biased because of how far from our current 'norm' they often stand. true objectivity does not attempt to satisfy everybody, nor does it attempt to be inoffensive/unblaming - it attempts to paint the full picture of any event.

as to Zinn's book, i'd definitely suggest reading it hand-in-hand with a 'regular' US history text - when I first read it, it was in an AP US History class in high-school, the teacher used the book as a supplement to our normal history text-book - and in such a situation, the book works as a great tool to provide the 'other-half' of the story. certainly, it is missing out on many positive events that occured in US history - but Zinn writes in the beginning that the purpose of the book is not to provide a full spectrum analysis of US history, but rather to tell the stories of many silenced voices...


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4833386 - 10/21/05 11:56 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Just call it murder then. Unlawfully killing a person.





It isn't the intention to kill, so therefore no murder. Try again.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833393 - 10/21/05 11:59 AM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

It isn't the intention to kill, so therefore no murder

Dropping explosives into heavily populated areas isn't intended to kill?

So if Timothy Mcveigh had said "I was aiming at the building not the people in it" would that have cleared him of murder?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4833401 - 10/21/05 12:03 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It isn't the intention to kill, so therefore no murder

Dropping explosives into heavily populated areas isn't intended to kill?

So if Timothy Mcveigh had said "I was aiming at the building not the people in it" would that have cleared him of murder?




This isn't difficult to understand.

It wasn't the intention to kill those that aren't military targets.

Timothy Mcveigh attempted to kill the innocent civilians.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833406 - 10/21/05 12:05 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

if that's what will help you shelve the skeletons
in your closet...that's fine, I guess.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833410 - 10/21/05 12:07 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

It wasn't the intention to kill those that aren't military targets.


It's still obvious if you drop explosives in heavily populated areas innocent people are going to die.

If someone leaves a bomb in a mall with the intention of blowing up a store and instead they kill 20 people my guess is they'd be tried with murder.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: afoaf]
    #4833411 - 10/21/05 12:08 PM (16 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
if that's what will help you shelve the skeletons
in your closet...that's fine, I guess.




What are you blabbering about? We are talking about definitions. Not justifications. Want a try at the topic at hand? Maybe you can even make your own. Don't be upset if its too hard though.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833497 - 10/21/05 12:49 PM (16 years, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together.





try telling that to the author(s) of the Torah.

Quote:

For every transgression against the will of G-d is, by definition, an act of "inadvertent murder": murder, because one has violated the essence and raison d'?tre of one's own life; inadvertent, because man is inherently and intrinsically good, and all evil deeds result only from a lapse of awareness of one's own true will.




let me guess though, religious (con)text doesn't count.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834196 - 10/21/05 03:22 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

What are you blabbering about?




no offense, but aren't you the one that didn't even read the book, and only became involved in this topic because of reviews you read?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834264 - 10/21/05 03:33 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago)

He doesn't even know who Howard Zinn is. He just knows he's on the left side of the political spectrum.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834419 - 10/21/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

What are you blabbering about?




no offense, but aren't you the one that didn't even read the book, and only became involved in this topic because of reviews you read?




Ahh, again you mention I didn't read the book for the 3rd time. So, i'll ask again... why did you post this here if you only wanted discussion on those who read the book? The media forum would probably be the best place for this.

As I've said before... since you made the thread I read reviews and summaries of the book. Is that not enough to comment in your esteemed thread? I apologize.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4834630 - 10/21/05 04:44 PM (16 years, 5 hours ago)

well seeing that i am more interested in the political side of it, rather than the literary side (although he is a good writer) I decided to post in the politics forum.

there are no requirements for posting in my "esteemed thread," (although reading the book would probably help) and there is no need to apologize, but it seems like this entire thread started wandering off into noam chomsky, semantics and left-wingism.

I found it interesting that this book was used as a companion to a standard history book.. that would actually make much more sense in establishing 2 opposing points of view on the same subjects.

strange enough, i saw the newest smallville this morning and someone says something to the effect that "history is not about facts, it is about what happens to who, and what the result is from that perspective"

that was probably the worst paraphrasing ever, but it sounds much like the famous Napoleon Bonaparte quote, which I prefer.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4834829 - 10/21/05 05:42 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

Honestly, reading reviews on books, and then claiming that the author is a polarized, biased person is rather hypocritical. Think about it, Howard Zinn is being accused of being inaccurate and taking liberity with information... and we know this because we read someone else's opinion of it?


And so it's an opinion based on other people's opinion of a book. And then comes in the typical "liberal" comment.

Chomsky, on the other hand, has been fairly debunked before in this forum. But that was focusing on the actual content.

All that being said, I agree somewhat with Paradigm that you can't take an author's opinion as truth until you've verified it independantly. That doesn't mean you should dismiss them automatically either, just know that history is interperted subjectively, and that no matter what you read, it's only one portion of the overall event (or multiple positions collected in some cases).


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4834876 - 10/21/05 05:53 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

i just knocked out another 2 chapters since my last post, and I went back to notice that a majority of this book is not by Howard Zinn, but rather quotes from magazine articles, court documents, treaties, books and speeches...

so if anyone should really be accused of misinformation or being sensational, it should be those quoted in the book, and not its author, since his only role is to point out dates and places, and to keep the stories all within a certain context (that context I guess many could argue is biased).

I would like some links to these Chomsky debunking threads though. I have not read much of his work (actually I haven't read any of his books, only bits and pieces from articles.. and a few interviews). I did see the Penn & Teller episode though.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834928 - 10/21/05 06:02 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

Just do a search in PAL forum for Chomsky, you'll find a ton of them.


I think the next step is to research the documents he made reference to and see whether he was accurate in quoting them, or whether he selectively left out material. Probably easier said than done though.


It's also worth noting that an author doesn't have to capture a historical event in its entirity, just the information relevent to his/her thesis. Other wise it would make for a really pointless read with too many tangents. The author DOES have the responsibilty of making sure what s/he publishes is accurate though.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4834960 - 10/21/05 06:09 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
Honestly, reading reviews on books, and then claiming that the author is a polarized, biased person is rather hypocritical. Think about it, Howard Zinn is being accused of being inaccurate and taking liberity with information... and we know this because we read someone else's opinion of it?




Why are you replying to me? Don't put words into my mouth. Show me where I claimed the author is polarized and biased. In fact, show me where I said anything about the author at all.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4834973 - 10/21/05 06:13 PM (16 years, 4 hours ago)

hah, well this thesis (from my own conclusion) being that the poor-whites and the non-whites are of the most oppressed in this country, from 1492 till now.

I don't think I would describe that as a hard thing to portray, quite the opposite.. those who wrote the standard history texts must have had quite a challenge presenting american history as something to hold pride in.

I do agree with this book being the perfect antidote for patriotism.. had I not already been an avid reader of Emma Goldman since 10th grade, it would have probably shattered my concept of patriotism / nationalism.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4835107 - 10/21/05 06:47 PM (16 years, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Why are you replying to me? Don't put words into my mouth. Show me where I claimed the author is polarized and biased. In fact, show me where I said anything about the author at all.




Quote:

looner2 said:
Is it any secret? It is written to breed self-loathing. Endulge!




Quote:

looner2 said:
I never read the book, but from the reviews I've read it seems like the perfect antidote for patriotism. Nothing invigorates liberals more than a hefty dose of guilt swelling into their gullet. It is just regrettable that some have to be on the receiving end of the vomit that comes immediately thereafter.




Alright, so you never directly said he was polarized or biased, but you made a comment that it was written to breed self-loathing, which is quite a comment on the author as well as implying that the book is biased. At any rate, you're dismissing the book without providing any examples why it "is written to breed self-loathing". If you're going to say that "liberals" get invigorated by this type of thing, it ignores whether or not the author's premise in the book is valid. Instead, it's just a rhetorical way of presenting the book as vomit inducing liberal antidote for patriotism.

To your credit, you never directly said that the author was biased or polarized. But your reaction to the book isn't based on the book itself, just rhertoric about liberals. Shouldn't a book be judged based on the quality of it's premise, rather than reducing it to intentions of breeding self-loathing?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4837016 - 10/22/05 04:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just do a search in PAL forum for Chomsky, you'll find a ton of them.

I've been here a few years and never seen one thread that, even remotely, succesfully debunked Chomsky. I've seen an awful lot of right-wingers pull out the moronic "He's a holocaust denier" (because Chomsky said even holocaust deniers have the right to free speech). And I've read a lot of about how bad he is but never with any reliable backup. Just a lot of bellyache and gutwind.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4837043 - 10/22/05 04:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I've been here a few years...




Do tell.

Quote:

... and never seen one thread that, even remotely, succesfully debunked Chomsky.




You probably just missed them. There's certainly no shortage of them.




Phred


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Phred]
    #4837045 - 10/22/05 04:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Then you can link us to em young Phrederick..


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4837064 - 10/22/05 05:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Phred]
    #4837164 - 10/22/05 07:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Like I said. A lot of gutwind and bellyache and no backup.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4837201 - 10/22/05 07:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the accusation about the sources are funny. I believe he is a prof at M.I.T. and in the world of academia, a mistake like this cannot be gone unnoticed.




that was the best reply out of that whole thread. i did read into the links that were posted, but I did not find a single "red-handed" statement regarding chomsky making up numbers or "spewing lies."


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4837203 - 10/22/05 07:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You never will. The general right-wing idea is to say utterly ludicrous things like "Chomsky has been a proven liar for four decades" but never provide any "proof".

Same as it ever was.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4837369 - 10/22/05 11:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You are of course free to ignore the abundant proof of Chomsky's dishonesty if you so choose. No skin off my nose.

Some readers of this forum prefer to form their opinions through the review of factual information, some prefer to form their opinions through other means. I will concede Chomsky may have some appeal to the latter group.



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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Phred]
    #4837497 - 10/22/05 12:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky have both converted to Islam and are working toward converting everyone in the world to this true faith.




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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Phred]
    #4837773 - 10/22/05 01:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You are of course free to ignore the abundant proof of Chomsky's dishonesty if you so choose.

When you can provide any of this "abundant proof" please post it.

BTW, Los Pepes post above does not qualify as "abundant proof".


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4838490 - 10/22/05 05:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

this was the closest article i could find after reading for quite a while, and by "googling" as you suggested. if i am ignoring some huge article let me know, but the links you posted, and the links on the internet no way even hint at chomsky making up quotes or anything of the sort

Quote:

Noam Chomsky?s Jihad Against America
By David Horowitz and Ronald Radosh
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 19, 2001

Note: A reader has pointed out an error in our article "Noam Chomsky?s Jihad Against America", which is important enough to warrant a correction. In his MIT speech, Chomsky referred to a September 16 NY Times article about food supplies in Afghanistan. Through a researcher?s error, we cited an article from the October 16 NY Times in our rebuttal. This led us to accuse Chomsky of making up his quote. In fact, Chomsky was quoting the article accurately. We regret the error. The error, on the other hand, has no bearing on the charge Chomsky was making -- which we rebutted -- that the United States was deliberately planning to starve 3-4 million Afghan civilians. As we point out in this corrected version, the October 16 NY Times article we cited, which described the efforts of the American government to provide food supplies to Afghans, was available to Chomsky at the time he maliciously and falsely described U.S. policy as one of promoting a "silent genocide."

--David Horowitz and Ron Radosh




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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4838590 - 10/22/05 06:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'll presume you meant to respond to me rather than to Alex213. If you click on the link I provide it will take you to a recent thread with tons of links and posts with excerpts from those links showing many examples of Chomsky's lies. You can Google if you want as well, but if you read through the whole thread you'll save yourself a lot of time.




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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4840459 - 10/23/05 05:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Note: A reader has pointed out an error in our article "Noam Chomsky?s Jihad Against America", which is important enough to warrant a correction. In his MIT speech, Chomsky referred to a September 16 NY Times article about food supplies in Afghanistan. Through a researcher?s error, we cited an article from the October 16 NY Times in our rebuttal. This led us to accuse Chomsky of making up his quote. In fact, Chomsky was quoting the article accurately.

:grin:

To be honest this is about as good as the anti-chomsky camp get.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4840924 - 10/23/05 12:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

What makes Chomsky the most menacing is that he isn't quite aligned with any US political party, so they cannot just condemn him as a Democrat hawk and whatnot. Also, because the right-wing doesn't have an anti-Chomsky. Not that there's really any way you can discount the HISTORICAL EVIDENCE the genocide the US has been responsible for in Central America, South America, Indochina, or the Middle East.

I recently heard a "debate" between Chomsky and Richard Perle. Suffice to say, it's very little wonder why no one debates him. He hilariously tore Perle to shreds and Perle's only real response was that Chomsky's point of view was "a very cynical way to view the world."


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4840945 - 10/23/05 12:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not doubting you, but could you tell me whom these genocides were directed at?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4840965 - 10/23/05 12:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
What makes Chomsky the most menacing is that he isn't quite aligned with any US political party, so they cannot just condemn him as a Democrat hawk and whatnot. Also, because the right-wing doesn't have an anti-Chomsky. Not that there's really any way you can discount the HISTORICAL EVIDENCE the genocide the US has been responsible for in Central America, South America, Indochina, or the Middle East.




Bilge like this is exactly the reason why Chomsky and similar nutlogs are totally harmless, ineffectual noise machines. Bleat all you wish but the only place any of this shit gets any traction is with the Lyndon Larouche ex-pats looking for a new loon. Chomsky's influence on America, nil. I have more influence than him.

Quote:



I recently heard a "debate" between Chomsky and Richard Perle. Suffice to say, it's very little wonder why no one debates him. He hilariously tore Perle to shreds and Perle's only real response was that Chomsky's point of view was "a very cynical way to view the world."




Wow, a cult member thinks "der vater" won a "debate". Call the papers.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841111 - 10/23/05 01:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I recently heard a "debate" between Chomsky and Richard Perle. Suffice to say, it's very little wonder why no one debates him. He hilariously tore Perle to shreds and Perle's only real response was that Chomsky's point of view was "a very cynical way to view the world."

I've never seen anyone on the right with the intelligence or depth of knowledge to get anywhere near Chomsky. All they ever do is launch personal attacks.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841535 - 10/23/05 03:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I'm not doubting you, but could you tell me whom these genocides were directed at?



The CIA's reign of terror in Central America in the 80s: From the supporting of the castrating of nuns by the tax payer funded, Negroponte-directed death squads in Honduras(Batallion 316) to the havoc reaked upon Nicaragua, all because the left-leaning Sandinistas were democratically elected and looking to turn the country into a socialist, egalitarian state. The overthrowing of Allende in Chile and installment and support of Pinochet, who is/was a murderous thug and just until recently was immune of punishment for his crimes against humanity. The interventions in 'Nam and Laos which we're familiar with.

Quote:

Bilge like this is exactly the reason why Chomsky and similar nutlogs are totally harmless, ineffectual noise machines. Bleat all you wish but the only place any of this shit gets any traction is with the Lyndon Larouche ex-pats looking for a new loon. Chomsky's influence on America, nil. I have more influence than him.



If you sleep better at night THINKING your country hasn't been responsible for gross atrocities and bloodshed globally, that's your choice, toots.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841556 - 10/23/05 03:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Those were mass killings to be sure, and absolutely morally repregensible, but I don't think they meet the strict rrequirements to be considered genocides.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841659 - 10/23/05 04:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
From the supporting of the castrating of nuns

Quote:

Bilge like this is exactly the reason why Chomsky and similar nutlogs are totally harmless, ineffectual noise machines. Bleat all you wish but the only place any of this shit gets any traction is with the Lyndon Larouche ex-pats looking for a new loon. Chomsky's influence on America, nil. I have more influence than him.



If you sleep better at night THINKING your country hasn't been responsible for gross atrocities and bloodshed globally, that's your choice, toots.




I must admit that I have lost a great deal of sleep over the thought of all those nun testicles sacrificed on the altar of US capitalist hegemony. Where does a nun nut go when it is liberated anyway?

Lunatic. Fringe. Marginalized. Ignored. Enjoy your little session. I prefer pictures of nekkid women for mine.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841669 - 10/23/05 04:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think Vietnam qualifies as genocide along with the US backed extermination of the people of East Timor.

As for the US funding the mass slaughter in Pinochet's Chile or the nightmarish terrorism of the Contras...perhaps attempted genocide is more accurate. It wasn't through any lack of trying those bastards failed, they just had too many people against them.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841674 - 10/23/05 04:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Those were mass killings to be sure, and absolutely morally repregensible, but I don't think they meet the strict rrequirements to be considered genocides.




Genocides? Please. They were internal political struggles, one side of which we occasionally helped. Sometimes our side won. Sometimes it didn't. Horrible acts were committed by both sides. Bukkake is just mad because there's only one communist state left in SA and only one in the Caribbean.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841681 - 10/23/05 04:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To qualify as genocide, one or more of these actions have to be taken or attempted to be taken on an entire group of people:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Vietname was not genocide b/c (for the most part), we were not civilians purposefully. I lack knowledge to judge about Timor, though.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841715 - 10/23/05 04:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To qualify as genocide, one or more of these actions have to be taken or attempted to be taken on an entire group of people

Doesn't dropping more bombs on Vietnam than were dropped during the Second World War qualify as genocide? Are we saying that amount of tonnage was somehow "targeted" away from civilians?

Or that spraying agent orange and napalm over huge swathes of the country was somehow targeted to avoid civilians?

Surely dropping that tonnage of explosives and chemicals on a country fulfills all those conditions?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841724 - 10/23/05 04:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't believe so. It was not an explicit plan to exterminate the civilians of Vietname. Intent matters as well.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841742 - 10/23/05 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Bukkake is just mad because there's only one communist state left in SA and only one in the Caribbean.



There isn't a hint of anger or madness in any of my replies in this thread. We would know if communism or socialism can or cannot exist if the US didn't place it upon itself the 'responsibility' to invade or destroy every sovereign country which decides, god forbid, to run its own country by its own guidelines for the betterment of every man or in SA, campesino alike, regardless of what the World Bank, IMF, or USA thinks.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841744 - 10/23/05 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
To qualify as genocide, one or more of these actions have to be taken or attempted to be taken on an entire group of people

Doesn't dropping more bombs on Vietnam than were dropped during the Second World War qualify as genocide? Are we saying that amount of tonnage was somehow "targeted" away from civilians?

Or that spraying agent orange and napalm over huge swathes of the country was somehow targeted to avoid civilians?

Surely dropping that tonnage of explosives and chemicals on a country fulfills all those conditions?




War isn't pretty, obviously.

Was it wrong for the South Vietnamese to oppose the communists?

Should they have just rolled over?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841753 - 10/23/05 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841765 - 10/23/05 04:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




Who knows what?

That the South Vietnamese should have rolled over?

Regardless of the business of the U.S or not, if the South Vietnamese were fighting so they wouldn't be taken over, then war was justified as a result. War is not a pretty thing.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841773 - 10/23/05 04:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless of the business of the U.S or not, if the South Vietnamese were fighting so they wouldn't be taken over, then war was justified as a result

Think the point B was making was that it was no business of the US dropping millions of tons of high explosives and chemicals on Vietnam. If the US had a disagreement regarding it's government presumably you wouldn't want the Chinese dropping Agent Orange on America?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841775 - 10/23/05 04:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I think Vietnam qualifies as genocide along with the US backed extermination of the people of East Timor.

As for the US funding the mass slaughter in Pinochet's Chile or the nightmarish terrorism of the Contras...perhaps attempted genocide is more accurate. It wasn't through any lack of trying those bastards failed, they just had too many people against them.




Do you even know what the word means? Yes Vietnam could be potentially characterized as genocide. The N. Vietnamese committed genocide against the S. Vietnamese. That would encompass the most liberal view of genocide to include the systematic killing of a political group. As to the nightmarish terrorism of the Contras it is quite clear that each side committed evil acts. The Sandanistas took over in a military coup in 1979, won an election in '84 and lost to Chamorro in '90. They have gradually lost more and more power ever since. They were not, however, slaughtered. CIA activities in Chile were marginal at best.

Is it your opinion that all wars are genocidal or just on America's part?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841776 - 10/23/05 04:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Regardless of the business of the U.S or not, if the South Vietnamese were fighting so they wouldn't be taken over, then war was justified as a result

Think the point B was making was that it was no business of the US dropping millions of tons of high explosives and chemicals on Vietnam. If the US had a civil war presumably you would want other countries to stay the hell out?




Did the South vietnamese want the U.S out?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841778 - 10/23/05 04:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If Vietnam is having a civil war, who gives a shit? I don't feel it is worth the lives of American soldiers, nevermind a fucking draft.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841784 - 10/23/05 05:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
If Vietnam is having a civil war, who gives a shit? I don't feel it is worth the lives of American soldiers, nevermind a fucking draft.




So you've two have passed on the whole, "genocide for dropping bombs in vietnam" spiel? Good.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841790 - 10/23/05 05:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




The business of the US is what the US says it is. If you think Vietnam was a provincial little struggle you are very naive. It was a surrogate battlefield. That does not however negate the interests of the S Vietnamese in stopping the N Vietnamese invasion


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841795 - 10/23/05 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Did the South vietnamese want the U.S out?

Yes.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841812 - 10/23/05 05:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So you've two have passed on the whole, "genocide for dropping bombs in vietnam" spiel? Good.

No but I havn't got the time to explain the origins of US involvement in Vietnam. It certainly had fuck-all to do with the North attacking the South. It isn't accurate to even talk about there being a "civil war". There was no "civil war" before the americans got involved in bombing the North.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841814 - 10/23/05 05:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Really?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841819 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You mean the north wasn't invading the south? That's news to me.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841821 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, really.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841823 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

sweet. from zinn to chomsky to vietnam.

i think i missed my stop


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841824 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And there was no French involvement in the nonexistent war before the US involvement either.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841832 - 10/23/05 05:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Did the South vietnamese want the U.S out?

Yes.




Heheh... tell that to the thousands that were executed after the country united under the utopia of communism.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841839 - 10/23/05 05:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




The business of the US is what the US says it is. If you think Vietnam was a provincial little struggle you are very naive. It was a surrogate battlefield. That does not however negate the interests of the S Vietnamese in stopping the N Vietnamese invasion



Who gives a fucking shit about Vietnam? Very few Americans would give a shit about what is happening in Asia or Vietnam, if you had asked them at that time. Or so, as such would hint at the mass protests happening at the time. I wasn't alive in the 60s, but the impression I received from 60s in reaction to the deployment and draft of American citizens was sternly AGAINST it.

Hey, bro. Here's an idea. Why not have our military/Army protect us from oncoming threats onto our own soil, instead of rampant, overseas intervention in Indochina?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841849 - 10/23/05 05:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Heheh... tell that to the thousands that were executed after the country united under the utopia of communism

I think you'll find an awful lot more South Vietnamese died thanks to American bombing.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841887 - 10/23/05 05:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




The business of the US is what the US says it is. If you think Vietnam was a provincial little struggle you are very naive. It was a surrogate battlefield. That does not however negate the interests of the S Vietnamese in stopping the N Vietnamese invasion



Who gives a fucking shit about Vietnam? Very few Americans would give a shit about what is happening in Asia or Vietnam, if you had asked them at that time. Or so, as such would hint at the mass protests happening at the time. I wasn't alive in the 60s, but the impression I received from 60s in reaction to the deployment and draft of American citizens was sternly AGAINST it.

Hey, bro. Here's an idea. Why not have our military/Army protect us from oncoming threats onto our own soil, instead of rampant, overseas intervention in Indochina?




I was alive then and you are not correct about what the people wanted. It wasn't until the late sixties that the majority of the people got fed up. Until that point everyone just assumed that it was a matter of time, and not much time at that, before we were victorous. They were also scared to death of communism. It was not at all clear that the communists would collapse under the weight of their own ideological inadequacy. That was 20 years in the future. Part of the value of that struggle was to stress the resources of the communists, just as it was in Afghanistan. Just as it was with the arms race. They couldn't keep up. It all helped.

The worst effect of Vietnam was that it led some very bad actors to think that we would never act. This was somewhat reinforced by the non-response of both Carter and Reagan to attacks against Americans.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841892 - 10/23/05 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Heheh... tell that to the thousands that were executed after the country united under the utopia of communism

I think you'll find an awful lot more South Vietnamese died thanks to American bombing.




Why do'nt you show us just where that particular nugget might be found.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4842077 - 10/23/05 06:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am POSITIVE if you asked the majority of Americans what they felt about Vietnam, they would have been for the ultimate withdrawl of all US soldiers. They would have certainly not been for the draft of our young men and women to fight for the protection of South Vietnam. And rightfully so. South Vietnam fell to the North, and who gives a fucking shit? Do Americans care about what happened in that part of the world? Not particularly. Why don't we care about our OWN people? Why do we care about North, South, Vietnam? Why do we not care about own isolationist policies? Why are we or must we be the policemen of the world?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4844239 - 10/24/05 02:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why do'nt you show us just where that particular nugget might be found.

Havn't you learned your lesson from when you got owned after claiming "400,000" people had been recovered from mass graves in Iraq?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4846282 - 10/24/05 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So where's the nugget.
(I posted a link. You didn't back up your 5,000 with any. Leave it junior. You are unteachable and no one else was listening. Swami's assinine satire put forth
Reporter2: "How can we be against the slaughter of civilians when our collateral damage was far worse than any crimes Husein committed?
I called this a lie. Here we go with a money-mouth deal. I say there are more Iraqi civilians buried in mass graves during Saddam's reign than were killed as collateral damage. I'm giving you so much extra it's ridiculous. I will not however give you the dead due to "insurgent attacks". Money-mouth.)
Bukkake I assure you that the majority were not in support of total withdrawal, with or without surrender. Most 18 year olds were, but America was not then nor has it ever been run by 18 year olds. The tide did not turn until right around 1970. Woodstock movies are cool and all but hippies didn't constitute the majority opinion. The "finest generation" was in charge and I really think they wanted to make us go through what they had to. I don't worship at that altar but I do know that they were the majority at the time and they really didn't want to lose.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4846509 - 10/24/05 06:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The withdrawl of 'Nam was not only because of the hippies and the drumming of support for the complete withdrawl, but also because soldiers rebelled against their commanders. Much like will happen in Iraq soon enough when they're fed up with the bullshit going on there. If either wars were justified or really in defense of America, they wouldn't be as resistant or bitter.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4846906 - 10/24/05 08:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Please post any link you like that indicates that there is a large scale troop dissatisfaction with the command. From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high. You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers. It was when their parents gave up that was the end. The hippies and the draftees were always against it


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4847032 - 10/24/05 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
The withdrawl of 'Nam was not only because of the hippies and the drumming of support for the complete withdrawl, but also because soldiers rebelled against their commanders. Much like will happen in Iraq soon enough when they're fed up with the bullshit going on there. If either wars were justified or really in defense of America, they wouldn't be as resistant or bitter.




So incredible wrong.

First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore. Those precious hippies stopped protesting after the draft ended. Hell, their asses were safe. The soldiers didn't "rebel" against their commanders. There was isolant incidents, but the army was functioning and performing its military mission, and that was keeping south vietnam safe from the communists and inflicting HEAVY damage on the north vietnamese.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4848514 - 10/25/05 02:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers

I've seen documentaries with american soldiers in Nam where they were openly walking smoking dope and doing whatever they wanted and their officers darn't say a word to them. Officers who tried telling them what to do tended to be come back dead whenever they went into action.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4848519 - 10/25/05 02:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore

So why do you think Kennedy was talking about withdrawal as early as 1963?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4849212 - 10/25/05 06:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high.



I hear deserters and the numbers slipping into Canada are pretty high, too.

Quote:

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers.



The number of troops against Vietnam were high because they acknowledged the war was fruitless and meaningless, much like the war in Iraq is.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4849496 - 10/25/05 10:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers

I've seen documentaries with american soldiers in Nam where they were openly walking smoking dope and doing whatever they wanted and their officers darn't say a word to them. Officers who tried telling them what to do tended to be come back dead whenever they went into action.




I'm sure you've seen quite a few documentaries. They remain inapplicable to the situation in general. "Tended to be come back dead". No. The few instances of fragging were generally related to glory seeking assholes who consistently volunteered their patrols for hazardous duty, not for officers who made their troops hide their drug use. There never was a wholesale assassination of officers. Most of the soldiers did not join VVAW upon their return and few were junkies. I knew several then and I know several now. There has been far too much hysterical bullshit about both of these things


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4849537 - 10/25/05 11:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high.



I hear deserters and the numbers slipping into Canada are pretty high, too.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-soldiers-re-enlist_x.htm
"Re-enlistment rates the past three years have been at least 6% above the service's goals for the 500,000-member active Army."

Recruitment is down but that is irrelevant to my point.

Got any stats for your assertion about deserters and new Canadians? What do you think is high? 1? 12? You?


Quote:

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers.



The number of troops against Vietnam were high because they acknowledged the war was fruitless and meaningless, much like the war in Iraq is.




No, again. It was because they were drafted. The enlistees tended to be pretty gung-ho. You can say they were stupid but that is completely beside the point.

Don't forget that the phrase "Silent Majority" was coined then. There was a reason for that. The noisy protesters got a lot of attention but the general poulation didn't share their opinion until quite late in the game. Your assertion that the American people were sternly against it is incorrect. Until very late in the sixties "The Greatest Generation" (spit) was all for it.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4849554 - 10/25/05 11:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore

So why do you think Kennedy was talking about withdrawal as early as 1963?




We were barely even there then. It was not much more than a blip on the American consciousness in 1963.

http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/history/index.html

"At the time of the Kennedy and Diem assassinations, there were 16,000 military advisers in Vietnam. The Kennedy administration had managed to run the war from Washington without the large-scale introduction of American combat troops. The continuing political problems in Saigon, however, convinced the new president, Lyndon Baines Johnson, that more aggressive action was needed. Perhaps Johnson was more prone to military intervention or maybe events in Vietnam had forced the president's hand to more direct action. In any event, after a dubious DRV raid on two U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, the Johnson administration argued for expansive war powers for the president."

This was well before the hour of discontent and is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Further, Kennedy may have spoken, but he sure didn't act. By the way, nice link to the Kennedy quote where he talked about withdrawal.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4849664 - 10/25/05 12:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You're missing the point. If the only reason we went there was to "save them from the communists" why would Kennedy talk about withdrawing?


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4849755 - 10/25/05 12:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I have no idea what you are talking about with this Kennedy conversation. Was it a private one he had with you? Facts:

When Kennedy was elected there was a small handful of advisors there.

When he was shot there were 16,000.

To tell you the truth, I have no doubt he may have discussed a future withdrawal while committing more and more troops. What, he was going to send them there for eternity? So what. His actions spoke volumes.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4850058 - 10/25/05 02:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore

So why do you think Kennedy was talking about withdrawal as early as 1963?




It is incredible hard to understand if you are shifting points in different directions in a hope that they correlate or are just fishing for endless pond skipping and actually tackling nothing.

PLEASE tell me how Kennedy talking about withdrawal has anything to do with hippies protesting or soldiers killing their commanders as bukkaka claimed in vietnam in the early 70's.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4850069 - 10/25/05 02:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high.



I hear deserters and the numbers slipping into Canada are pretty high, too.




Really, got a figure?

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers.



The number of troops against Vietnam were high because they acknowledged the war was fruitless and meaningless, much like the war in Iraq is.




Soldiers don't make foreign policy decisions. They fight wars. If communism was deemed a threat, and its expansion would continue to go unopposed, who knows the world dynamics that could have resulted. That is not to say I agree with every aspect of the war at all, but just because you don't see the realistic struggle that was occuring doesn't mean there wasn't one, or that a plan wasn't warranted.


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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850093 - 10/25/05 02:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It is incredible hard to understand if you are shifting points in different directions

You said we left Vietnam because our population couldn't stand it anymore. So why was Kennedy talking about withdrawing in 1963 when the population wasn't demanding it?

The point is there were clearly many other reasons for withdrawing from Vietnam. Ok?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4850152 - 10/25/05 02:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It is incredible hard to understand if you are shifting points in different directions

You said we left Vietnam because our population couldn't stand it anymore. So why was Kennedy talking about withdrawing in 1963 when the population wasn't demanding it?

The point is there were clearly many other reasons for withdrawing from Vietnam. Ok?




What reason? I don't know that Kennedy said that, but it could all very well include not wanting to deal with the situation. Not wanting to escalate military operations. Not want to risk the intervention of China and Russia. Any number of those strategic decisions? WHO CARES?

It is not pertinent to the ACTUAL war that was fought in the coming years, to which support dwindled and American resolve was shattered. THAT is what defeated us in the war, as it is the ONLY thing that could have possibly seeing as we were slaughtering the vietnamese and defending the south from the communists.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850455 - 10/25/05 03:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So far all we have is Alex's assertion that Kennedy said something about withdrawal. Where's the fucking quote Al? Absent this you're just talking out your ass.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850709 - 10/25/05 04:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

as it is the ONLY thing that could have possibly seeing as we were slaughtering the vietnamese and defending the south from the communists.

You were doing a lot of slaughtering of innocent people for sure, whether or not it was doing you any good in "winning" the war(against a people who averaged 5' in height - good work studs) is another matter. They appear to have had you on the run.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4850766 - 10/25/05 05:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Where's the fucking quote Al? Absent this you're just talking out your ass.

Tell you what, do a little reading around and see what you come up with.

I mean, look at how you performed when I showed you were talking a load of old bollocks about "400,000 in mass graves" - even when I provided the incontrovertible evidence you were talking absolute horseshit you still denied it.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4850790 - 10/25/05 05:17 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
as it is the ONLY thing that could have possibly seeing as we were slaughtering the vietnamese and defending the south from the communists.

You were doing a lot of slaughtering of innocent people for sure, whether or not it was doing you any good in "winning" the war(against a people who averaged 5' in height - good work studs) is another matter. They appear to have had you on the run.




There we have it. Alex123 I like getting in debates, but you just snipe and snide at the corners of a discussion. So now we aren't discussing the U.S holding off the communists and winning the vietnam war, opposed to the lack of support of home... the discussion has switched to us killing civilians. I'm afraid if I even try to get back on target you'll bring up the genocide of the indians. Not a joke either, I'm sure you will.

But yes, we were winning the war.

Was south vietnam communist? No.

Was north vietnam continually attempting to invade and secure south vietnam? Yes

Were they defeated each time they tried? Yes

Did we do this all the while having limited military options because the war being run from the white house? Yes

The bottomline is we slaughtered them in every major confrontation. They then went into guerilla hit and run and we still slaughtered them.

There is NO debating it. It is a fact.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850839 - 10/25/05 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So now we aren't discussing the U.S holding off the communists and winning the vietnam war

When were we discussing this? This is your personal fantasy which has no bearing on reality whatsoever.

opposed to the lack of support of home

Have you ever thought people didn't support it because the army was getting it's fucking ass kicked? If they'd been "winning" do you think they'd have had support at home?

the discussion has switched to us killing civilians

There's not a lot else you can talk about the Vietnam war is there? 3 million innocents dead, kids still dying from chemical warfare and all for fucking what? The propaganda story about communists? That's about as credible as WMD.

Was south vietnam communist?

Are you referring to the puppet government or the people of South Vietnam?

Was north vietnam continually attempting to invade and secure south vietnam?

Before or after the US started bombing raids on both South and North Vietnam?

Were they defeated each time they tried? Yes


Presumably you've never seen the pictures of the americans leaving Saigon?

The bottomline is we slaughtered them in every major confrontation. They then went into guerilla hit and run and we still slaughtered them

Uf things were going so well why did you run away so hard at Saigon?

There is NO debating it. It is a fact

Come off it loon. You'll be telling us WMD's were fact next.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4851156 - 10/25/05 06:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Where's the fucking quote Al? Absent this you're just talking out your ass.

Tell you what, do a little reading around and see what you come up with.

I mean, look at how you performed when I showed you were talking a load of old bollocks about "400,000 in mass graves" - even when I provided the incontrovertible evidence you were talking absolute horseshit you still denied it.




No link there, no link here

Quote:

Well you sure ain't impressing the Iraqis. Less than 1% think you are aiding the security situation.




No link here either. Nary a link for your rectal exhaust anywhere.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4851556 - 10/25/05 09:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You literally cut my sentence in half and made arguments against each half of the sentence. That is pathetic.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Have you ever thought people didn't support it because the army was getting it's fucking ass kicked? If they'd been "winning" do you think they'd have had support at home?




Fucking ass kicked? What war are you talking about now? I'll say it again and again. We were winning Vietnam. Militarily we weren't getting our asses kicked. We were kicking ass. The support waned because people were dying and the populous didn't accept the loss of life. Now, it is clear you are unable or unwilling to understand the difference between military objectives as it pertains to war, and the morale factors regarding politics and the home-front. They are separate, but also inextricably linked. I suggest you research the topic.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
There's not a lot else you can talk about the Vietnam war is there? 3 million innocents dead, kids still dying from chemical warfare and all for fucking what? The propaganda story about communists? That's about as credible as WMD.




No Alex, we weren't talking about civilians. YOU brought it up. You disregarded the argument and spouted off civilians that died. But i'll play your stupid game. CIVILIANS DIED DURING THE NORMANDY INVASION, OHHHH THE HORROR!!!!!!

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Presumably you've never seen the pictures of the americans leaving Saigon?




Again Alex, you don't know Vietnam history at all. We left saigon because we were told to leave saigon. It wasn't a military battle. Is that hard to comprehend?

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Uf things were going so well why did you run away so hard at Saigon?




Since you said it again, I'll say it again. Saigon wasn't a battle. Do you want to talk about Khe Sahn or the Tet offensive, or any other battle where we wiped out the North Vietnamese? No, you obviously don't. The fall of saigon was a south Vietnam defeat, not an American one.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4851975 - 10/25/05 10:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
We were winning Vietnam.



Sorry to break the news to you, but winning does not entail being unable to hold the country and being unable to persuade the indigenous personnel to keep from attacking. Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


Edited by Prosgeopax (10/25/05 10:48 PM)


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4852031 - 10/25/05 10:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
We were winning Vietnam.



Sorry to break the news to you, but winning does not entail being unable to hold the country and being unable to persuade the indigenous personnel to keep from attacking. Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements?





Elaborate Clausewitz! We were in a defensive position. We couldn't attack the North, and our mission of keeping them out of south Vietnam was successful.

You mean the communists from the north, were the "indigineous people"? No, the military isn't in the buisness of persuading others to stop attacking. That is diplomacy and politics. This is really elementary to a military mastermind.

No there wasn't a pronounced decrease in military engagements. The North Vietnamese had high morale and continued their assault in light of heavy losses.

The war wasn't fought correctly. The military didn't have the control to go ahead and win the war. They were pushed around and straighjacketed by Washington. But, the mission that they did have they carried out successfully.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4853370 - 10/26/05 03:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We couldn't attack the North

Come again? You dropped more bombs on South and North Vietnam than were dropped during the second world war. Not to mention the agent orange and napalm. You don't call that "attacking"?

You mean the communists from the north, were the "indigineous people"?

This "communists from the north" is a propaganda story loon. It's like the fantasy now that insurgents in Iraq are all "al-qaeda". Most of the Vietnamese fighting wouldn't know a fucking communist from a hole in the ground. All they knew was the americans were blowing their women and kids up with high explosives.

The North Vietnamese had high morale and continued their assault in light of heavy losses.


I don't think the heavy losses came during their attacks. The heavy losses came during B52 bombing raids.

The military didn't have the control to go ahead and win the war

Could you tell me what the objective of the Vietnam war was? Because I've read american generals at the time asking LBJ what the objective was and LBJ didn't know.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4853542 - 10/26/05 04:16 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No link there, no link here


Tell you what. When you apologise for repeatedly lying regarding the "400,000 in mass graves" fantasy (even after I'd provided you the link proving you wrong), let me know and I'll see whether I can be bothered going through the same thing again.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4853740 - 10/26/05 08:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Militarily we weren't getting our asses kicked. We were kicking ass.




heh, i guess that would depend on who was keeping score.

to honest, people without policital agendas, many lost.

to the power hungry & rich, many won.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4853844 - 10/26/05 10:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Kot, think that quote you've mentioned there was by the other kid.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4854458 - 10/26/05 02:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Really, got a figure?



No, but judging by the occasional thread here about deserters found and jailed...

Quote:

Soldiers don't make foreign policy decisions. They fight wars. If communism was deemed a threat, and its expansion would continue to go unopposed, who knows the world dynamics that could have resulted. That is not to say I agree with every aspect of the war at all, but just because you don't see the realistic struggle that was occuring doesn't mean there wasn't one, or that a plan wasn't warranted.



The only struggle I see from history that occured was internal in the US military.

You thought we were kicking ass in Vietnam? I've never heard anyone say that before.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4854495 - 10/26/05 02:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
The only struggle I see from history that occured was internal in the US military.





Like what? I want evidence for this.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4854507 - 10/26/05 02:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

Really, got a figure?



No, but judging by the occasional thread here about deserters found and jailed...





I think the amount of deserters is around 5,000 since the war in Iraq began. Seeing that our military is about 1.4 million strong, that would leave

0.003 % of the military as deserters. Sorry, just wishing for the breakdown and failure of the U.S military won't cause it to happen.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4854517 - 10/26/05 02:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
We couldn't attack the North

Come again? You dropped more bombs on South and North Vietnam than were dropped during the second world war. Not to mention the agent orange and napalm. You don't call that "attacking"?




We had to approve targets by the fucking president. The military did not have control over operations, and weren't given the right to move into north vietnam and destroy the threat. Again, ring around the rosie Alex.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Could you tell me what the objective of the Vietnam war was? Because I've read american generals at the time asking LBJ what the objective was and LBJ didn't know.




The politics of the war were disgusting. But our military fought it gallantly. Isn't that what we were talking about? The military duties in Iraq and how its performing?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4857656 - 10/27/05 02:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We had to approve targets by the fucking president

You're not getting this loon. More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than were dropped during World War II. Are you telling me the President approved each bomb?

But our military fought it gallantly

You ever seen that film of little kids running screaming with their flesh hanging off thanks to napalm? Is that what you call "gallant"?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4858358 - 10/27/05 09:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
We had to approve targets by the fucking president

You're not getting this loon. More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than were dropped during World War II. Are you telling me the President approved each bomb?




No, I'm telling you the president had to approve targets before we bombed them. Just as I've said before.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You ever seen that film of little kids running screaming with their flesh hanging off thanks to napalm? Is that what you call "gallant"?




How about the limbs hanging off the French kids during the invasion of normandy? What a sham that was, huh?

I suppose no war will ever have been justified, as long as Alex can appeal to emotion for a point that isn't even related to the argument.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4858874 - 10/27/05 01:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Elaborate Clausewitz!



There's no need to elaborate, I just need someone with the ability to comprehend simple questions. Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements? A simple yes or no would suffice, but since you insist on fantasizing that the U.S. triumphed in Viet Nam, I don't think I can expect that from you.

Quote:

We were in a defensive position.



In actuality, the U.S. had chosen sides in a civil war. North and South Vietnam were the result of outside imperial forces working to secure control by propping up local people in power in compliant regimes.

Quote:

You mean the communists from the north, were the "indigineous people"?



News flash (for the historically impaired), U.S. forces destroyed villages and often couldn't tell who the enemy was so they shot at anybody.

Quote:

No, the military isn't in the buisness of persuading others to stop attacking.



War IS the continuation of politics by other means (Clausewitz). If you are not able to keep the peace, you have not won the war.

Quote:

No there wasn't a pronounced decrease in military engagements.



Wow, finally some honesty!

Quote:

The North Vietnamese had high morale and continued their assault in light of heavy losses.



Don't forget that the indigenous personnel were PISSED at Americans for destroying their villages and indiscriminate killing. It was not all 'North' Vietnamese, contrary to revisionist thinking.

Quote:

They were pushed around and straighjacketed by Washington.



Right, I guess the scorched earth policy is what you call, 'straighjacketed.' Have you ever read the Aesop fable about sour grapes?

Quote:

But, the mission that they did have they carried out successfully.



The proof is in the pudding. You don't have proof on your side, just the history of a quagmire and plenty of dead soldiers. Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4858960 - 10/27/05 01:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements? A simple yes or no would suffice, but since you insist on fantasizing that the U.S. triumphed in Viet Nam, I don't think I can expect that from you.





Yes, we held South Vietnam. We were not allowed in North Vietnam. No, we didn't see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements.

Now, what effect these factors have on the military performace is mute. Because that is what I was talking about. The leaders did not allow our generals to win the war. Period. I don't expect you to understand. As a self-proclaimed reader of clauswitz you seem unable to discern purely military objectives from the political.

The military continuing to see enemy attacks does not mean they are failing to win militarily. It means the enemy has strong morale. Maybe you should read up on book three, chapter 3 and 4: Moral factors.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
In actuality, the U.S. had chosen sides in a civil war. North and South Vietnam were the result of outside imperial forces working to secure control by propping up local people in power in compliant regimes.




No, it was an ideological war between communist Soviet Union and China and the U.S. Vietnam was stuck in the middle, and it was unfortunate for them.

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
The proof is in the pudding. You don't have proof on your side, just the history of a quagmire and plenty of dead soldiers. Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.




There is lots to learn from vietnam. One is that at the homefront we need strong resolve. Two is that the tactics used to defeat us have shown to be implemented in the future in our current war. Three that the military needs to be given clear objectives and the means to carry them out in order to ensure victory.

What have you learned? (I already know)

1.) to hate your own country
2.) to accept defeat at a whim


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4859635 - 10/27/05 04:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
What have you learned? (I already know)

1.) to hate your own country
2.) to accept defeat at a whim



Wrong (yet again).

1.) Disagreeing with actions of those in power does in no way equate with or translate to hating your own country. Only fools believe otherwise.

2.) Being against unwarranted military action does in no way equate with or translate to accepting defeat at a whim. Only fools believe otherwise.

What's worse than being ignorant? Not knowing that you're ignorant. You haven't the foggiest idea as to the extent of your ignorance regarding those you disagree with. Though it may boost the simple ego of one possessing a shallow and dull intellect by assigning wrong-headed characterizations to those he disagrees with, it does not help him to advance his understanding, nor does it help advance his arguments.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4859768 - 10/27/05 05:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
What have you learned? (I already know)

1.) to hate your own country
2.) to accept defeat at a whim



Wrong (yet again).

1.) Disagreeing with actions of those in power does in no way equate with or translate to hating your own country. Only fools believe otherwise.

2.) Being against unwarranted military action does in no way equate with or translate to accepting defeat at a whim. Only fools believe otherwise.

What's worse than being ignorant? Not knowing that you're ignorant. You haven't the foggiest idea as to the extent of your ignorance regarding those you disagree with. Though it may boost the simple ego of one possessing a shallow and dull intellect by assigning wrong-headed characterizations to those he disagrees with, it does not help him to advance his understanding, nor does it help advance his arguments.




I'm ignorant, have a simple ego, and a dull intellect. Is that all?

I really love how you are obsessed with me. It is quite flattering.


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