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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4849755 - 10/25/05 12:35 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

I have no idea what you are talking about with this Kennedy conversation. Was it a private one he had with you? Facts:

When Kennedy was elected there was a small handful of advisors there.

When he was shot there were 16,000.

To tell you the truth, I have no doubt he may have discussed a future withdrawal while committing more and more troops. What, he was going to send them there for eternity? So what. His actions spoke volumes.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4850058 - 10/25/05 02:20 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore

So why do you think Kennedy was talking about withdrawal as early as 1963?




It is incredible hard to understand if you are shifting points in different directions in a hope that they correlate or are just fishing for endless pond skipping and actually tackling nothing.

PLEASE tell me how Kennedy talking about withdrawal has anything to do with hippies protesting or soldiers killing their commanders as bukkaka claimed in vietnam in the early 70's.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4850069 - 10/25/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high.



I hear deserters and the numbers slipping into Canada are pretty high, too.




Really, got a figure?

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers.



The number of troops against Vietnam were high because they acknowledged the war was fruitless and meaningless, much like the war in Iraq is.




Soldiers don't make foreign policy decisions. They fight wars. If communism was deemed a threat, and its expansion would continue to go unopposed, who knows the world dynamics that could have resulted. That is not to say I agree with every aspect of the war at all, but just because you don't see the realistic struggle that was occuring doesn't mean there wasn't one, or that a plan wasn't warranted.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850093 - 10/25/05 02:31 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

It is incredible hard to understand if you are shifting points in different directions

You said we left Vietnam because our population couldn't stand it anymore. So why was Kennedy talking about withdrawing in 1963 when the population wasn't demanding it?

The point is there were clearly many other reasons for withdrawing from Vietnam. Ok?


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4850152 - 10/25/05 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It is incredible hard to understand if you are shifting points in different directions

You said we left Vietnam because our population couldn't stand it anymore. So why was Kennedy talking about withdrawing in 1963 when the population wasn't demanding it?

The point is there were clearly many other reasons for withdrawing from Vietnam. Ok?




What reason? I don't know that Kennedy said that, but it could all very well include not wanting to deal with the situation. Not wanting to escalate military operations. Not want to risk the intervention of China and Russia. Any number of those strategic decisions? WHO CARES?

It is not pertinent to the ACTUAL war that was fought in the coming years, to which support dwindled and American resolve was shattered. THAT is what defeated us in the war, as it is the ONLY thing that could have possibly seeing as we were slaughtering the vietnamese and defending the south from the communists.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850455 - 10/25/05 03:46 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

So far all we have is Alex's assertion that Kennedy said something about withdrawal. Where's the fucking quote Al? Absent this you're just talking out your ass.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850709 - 10/25/05 04:57 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

as it is the ONLY thing that could have possibly seeing as we were slaughtering the vietnamese and defending the south from the communists.

You were doing a lot of slaughtering of innocent people for sure, whether or not it was doing you any good in "winning" the war(against a people who averaged 5' in height - good work studs) is another matter. They appear to have had you on the run.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4850766 - 10/25/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Where's the fucking quote Al? Absent this you're just talking out your ass.

Tell you what, do a little reading around and see what you come up with.

I mean, look at how you performed when I showed you were talking a load of old bollocks about "400,000 in mass graves" - even when I provided the incontrovertible evidence you were talking absolute horseshit you still denied it.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4850790 - 10/25/05 05:17 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
as it is the ONLY thing that could have possibly seeing as we were slaughtering the vietnamese and defending the south from the communists.

You were doing a lot of slaughtering of innocent people for sure, whether or not it was doing you any good in "winning" the war(against a people who averaged 5' in height - good work studs) is another matter. They appear to have had you on the run.




There we have it. Alex123 I like getting in debates, but you just snipe and snide at the corners of a discussion. So now we aren't discussing the U.S holding off the communists and winning the vietnam war, opposed to the lack of support of home... the discussion has switched to us killing civilians. I'm afraid if I even try to get back on target you'll bring up the genocide of the indians. Not a joke either, I'm sure you will.

But yes, we were winning the war.

Was south vietnam communist? No.

Was north vietnam continually attempting to invade and secure south vietnam? Yes

Were they defeated each time they tried? Yes

Did we do this all the while having limited military options because the war being run from the white house? Yes

The bottomline is we slaughtered them in every major confrontation. They then went into guerilla hit and run and we still slaughtered them.

There is NO debating it. It is a fact.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4850839 - 10/25/05 05:28 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

So now we aren't discussing the U.S holding off the communists and winning the vietnam war

When were we discussing this? This is your personal fantasy which has no bearing on reality whatsoever.

opposed to the lack of support of home

Have you ever thought people didn't support it because the army was getting it's fucking ass kicked? If they'd been "winning" do you think they'd have had support at home?

the discussion has switched to us killing civilians

There's not a lot else you can talk about the Vietnam war is there? 3 million innocents dead, kids still dying from chemical warfare and all for fucking what? The propaganda story about communists? That's about as credible as WMD.

Was south vietnam communist?

Are you referring to the puppet government or the people of South Vietnam?

Was north vietnam continually attempting to invade and secure south vietnam?

Before or after the US started bombing raids on both South and North Vietnam?

Were they defeated each time they tried? Yes


Presumably you've never seen the pictures of the americans leaving Saigon?

The bottomline is we slaughtered them in every major confrontation. They then went into guerilla hit and run and we still slaughtered them

Uf things were going so well why did you run away so hard at Saigon?

There is NO debating it. It is a fact

Come off it loon. You'll be telling us WMD's were fact next.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4851156 - 10/25/05 06:42 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Where's the fucking quote Al? Absent this you're just talking out your ass.

Tell you what, do a little reading around and see what you come up with.

I mean, look at how you performed when I showed you were talking a load of old bollocks about "400,000 in mass graves" - even when I provided the incontrovertible evidence you were talking absolute horseshit you still denied it.




No link there, no link here

Quote:

Well you sure ain't impressing the Iraqis. Less than 1% think you are aiding the security situation.




No link here either. Nary a link for your rectal exhaust anywhere.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4851556 - 10/25/05 09:05 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

You literally cut my sentence in half and made arguments against each half of the sentence. That is pathetic.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Have you ever thought people didn't support it because the army was getting it's fucking ass kicked? If they'd been "winning" do you think they'd have had support at home?




Fucking ass kicked? What war are you talking about now? I'll say it again and again. We were winning Vietnam. Militarily we weren't getting our asses kicked. We were kicking ass. The support waned because people were dying and the populous didn't accept the loss of life. Now, it is clear you are unable or unwilling to understand the difference between military objectives as it pertains to war, and the morale factors regarding politics and the home-front. They are separate, but also inextricably linked. I suggest you research the topic.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
There's not a lot else you can talk about the Vietnam war is there? 3 million innocents dead, kids still dying from chemical warfare and all for fucking what? The propaganda story about communists? That's about as credible as WMD.




No Alex, we weren't talking about civilians. YOU brought it up. You disregarded the argument and spouted off civilians that died. But i'll play your stupid game. CIVILIANS DIED DURING THE NORMANDY INVASION, OHHHH THE HORROR!!!!!!

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Presumably you've never seen the pictures of the americans leaving Saigon?




Again Alex, you don't know Vietnam history at all. We left saigon because we were told to leave saigon. It wasn't a military battle. Is that hard to comprehend?

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Uf things were going so well why did you run away so hard at Saigon?




Since you said it again, I'll say it again. Saigon wasn't a battle. Do you want to talk about Khe Sahn or the Tet offensive, or any other battle where we wiped out the North Vietnamese? No, you obviously don't. The fall of saigon was a south Vietnam defeat, not an American one.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4851975 - 10/25/05 10:45 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
We were winning Vietnam.



Sorry to break the news to you, but winning does not entail being unable to hold the country and being unable to persuade the indigenous personnel to keep from attacking. Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


Edited by Prosgeopax (10/25/05 10:48 PM)


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4852031 - 10/25/05 10:57 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
We were winning Vietnam.



Sorry to break the news to you, but winning does not entail being unable to hold the country and being unable to persuade the indigenous personnel to keep from attacking. Did 'we' hold the country? Did 'we' see a pronounced diminishing of enemy engagements?





Elaborate Clausewitz! We were in a defensive position. We couldn't attack the North, and our mission of keeping them out of south Vietnam was successful.

You mean the communists from the north, were the "indigineous people"? No, the military isn't in the buisness of persuading others to stop attacking. That is diplomacy and politics. This is really elementary to a military mastermind.

No there wasn't a pronounced decrease in military engagements. The North Vietnamese had high morale and continued their assault in light of heavy losses.

The war wasn't fought correctly. The military didn't have the control to go ahead and win the war. They were pushed around and straighjacketed by Washington. But, the mission that they did have they carried out successfully.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4853370 - 10/26/05 03:04 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

We couldn't attack the North

Come again? You dropped more bombs on South and North Vietnam than were dropped during the second world war. Not to mention the agent orange and napalm. You don't call that "attacking"?

You mean the communists from the north, were the "indigineous people"?

This "communists from the north" is a propaganda story loon. It's like the fantasy now that insurgents in Iraq are all "al-qaeda". Most of the Vietnamese fighting wouldn't know a fucking communist from a hole in the ground. All they knew was the americans were blowing their women and kids up with high explosives.

The North Vietnamese had high morale and continued their assault in light of heavy losses.


I don't think the heavy losses came during their attacks. The heavy losses came during B52 bombing raids.

The military didn't have the control to go ahead and win the war

Could you tell me what the objective of the Vietnam war was? Because I've read american generals at the time asking LBJ what the objective was and LBJ didn't know.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4853542 - 10/26/05 04:16 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

No link there, no link here


Tell you what. When you apologise for repeatedly lying regarding the "400,000 in mass graves" fantasy (even after I'd provided you the link proving you wrong), let me know and I'll see whether I can be bothered going through the same thing again.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4853740 - 10/26/05 08:33 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Militarily we weren't getting our asses kicked. We were kicking ass.




heh, i guess that would depend on who was keeping score.

to honest, people without policital agendas, many lost.

to the power hungry & rich, many won.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4853844 - 10/26/05 10:22 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Kot, think that quote you've mentioned there was by the other kid.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Registered: 05/28/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4854458 - 10/26/05 02:02 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Really, got a figure?



No, but judging by the occasional thread here about deserters found and jailed...

Quote:

Soldiers don't make foreign policy decisions. They fight wars. If communism was deemed a threat, and its expansion would continue to go unopposed, who knows the world dynamics that could have resulted. That is not to say I agree with every aspect of the war at all, but just because you don't see the realistic struggle that was occuring doesn't mean there wasn't one, or that a plan wasn't warranted.



The only struggle I see from history that occured was internal in the US military.

You thought we were kicking ass in Vietnam? I've never heard anyone say that before.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4854495 - 10/26/05 02:12 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
The only struggle I see from history that occured was internal in the US military.





Like what? I want evidence for this.


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