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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841823 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

sweet. from zinn to chomsky to vietnam.

i think i missed my stop


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841824 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And there was no French involvement in the nonexistent war before the US involvement either.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841832 - 10/23/05 05:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Did the South vietnamese want the U.S out?

Yes.




Heheh... tell that to the thousands that were executed after the country united under the utopia of communism.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841839 - 10/23/05 05:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




The business of the US is what the US says it is. If you think Vietnam was a provincial little struggle you are very naive. It was a surrogate battlefield. That does not however negate the interests of the S Vietnamese in stopping the N Vietnamese invasion



Who gives a fucking shit about Vietnam? Very few Americans would give a shit about what is happening in Asia or Vietnam, if you had asked them at that time. Or so, as such would hint at the mass protests happening at the time. I wasn't alive in the 60s, but the impression I received from 60s in reaction to the deployment and draft of American citizens was sternly AGAINST it.

Hey, bro. Here's an idea. Why not have our military/Army protect us from oncoming threats onto our own soil, instead of rampant, overseas intervention in Indochina?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841849 - 10/23/05 05:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Heheh... tell that to the thousands that were executed after the country united under the utopia of communism

I think you'll find an awful lot more South Vietnamese died thanks to American bombing.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841887 - 10/23/05 05:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




The business of the US is what the US says it is. If you think Vietnam was a provincial little struggle you are very naive. It was a surrogate battlefield. That does not however negate the interests of the S Vietnamese in stopping the N Vietnamese invasion



Who gives a fucking shit about Vietnam? Very few Americans would give a shit about what is happening in Asia or Vietnam, if you had asked them at that time. Or so, as such would hint at the mass protests happening at the time. I wasn't alive in the 60s, but the impression I received from 60s in reaction to the deployment and draft of American citizens was sternly AGAINST it.

Hey, bro. Here's an idea. Why not have our military/Army protect us from oncoming threats onto our own soil, instead of rampant, overseas intervention in Indochina?




I was alive then and you are not correct about what the people wanted. It wasn't until the late sixties that the majority of the people got fed up. Until that point everyone just assumed that it was a matter of time, and not much time at that, before we were victorous. They were also scared to death of communism. It was not at all clear that the communists would collapse under the weight of their own ideological inadequacy. That was 20 years in the future. Part of the value of that struggle was to stress the resources of the communists, just as it was in Afghanistan. Just as it was with the arms race. They couldn't keep up. It all helped.

The worst effect of Vietnam was that it led some very bad actors to think that we would never act. This was somewhat reinforced by the non-response of both Carter and Reagan to attacks against Americans.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841892 - 10/23/05 05:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Heheh... tell that to the thousands that were executed after the country united under the utopia of communism

I think you'll find an awful lot more South Vietnamese died thanks to American bombing.




Why do'nt you show us just where that particular nugget might be found.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4842077 - 10/23/05 06:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I am POSITIVE if you asked the majority of Americans what they felt about Vietnam, they would have been for the ultimate withdrawl of all US soldiers. They would have certainly not been for the draft of our young men and women to fight for the protection of South Vietnam. And rightfully so. South Vietnam fell to the North, and who gives a fucking shit? Do Americans care about what happened in that part of the world? Not particularly. Why don't we care about our OWN people? Why do we care about North, South, Vietnam? Why do we not care about own isolationist policies? Why are we or must we be the policemen of the world?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4844239 - 10/24/05 02:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why do'nt you show us just where that particular nugget might be found.

Havn't you learned your lesson from when you got owned after claiming "400,000" people had been recovered from mass graves in Iraq?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4846282 - 10/24/05 05:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So where's the nugget.
(I posted a link. You didn't back up your 5,000 with any. Leave it junior. You are unteachable and no one else was listening. Swami's assinine satire put forth
Reporter2: "How can we be against the slaughter of civilians when our collateral damage was far worse than any crimes Husein committed?
I called this a lie. Here we go with a money-mouth deal. I say there are more Iraqi civilians buried in mass graves during Saddam's reign than were killed as collateral damage. I'm giving you so much extra it's ridiculous. I will not however give you the dead due to "insurgent attacks". Money-mouth.)
Bukkake I assure you that the majority were not in support of total withdrawal, with or without surrender. Most 18 year olds were, but America was not then nor has it ever been run by 18 year olds. The tide did not turn until right around 1970. Woodstock movies are cool and all but hippies didn't constitute the majority opinion. The "finest generation" was in charge and I really think they wanted to make us go through what they had to. I don't worship at that altar but I do know that they were the majority at the time and they really didn't want to lose.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4846509 - 10/24/05 06:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The withdrawl of 'Nam was not only because of the hippies and the drumming of support for the complete withdrawl, but also because soldiers rebelled against their commanders. Much like will happen in Iraq soon enough when they're fed up with the bullshit going on there. If either wars were justified or really in defense of America, they wouldn't be as resistant or bitter.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4846906 - 10/24/05 08:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Please post any link you like that indicates that there is a large scale troop dissatisfaction with the command. From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high. You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers. It was when their parents gave up that was the end. The hippies and the draftees were always against it


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4847032 - 10/24/05 08:39 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
The withdrawl of 'Nam was not only because of the hippies and the drumming of support for the complete withdrawl, but also because soldiers rebelled against their commanders. Much like will happen in Iraq soon enough when they're fed up with the bullshit going on there. If either wars were justified or really in defense of America, they wouldn't be as resistant or bitter.




So incredible wrong.

First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore. Those precious hippies stopped protesting after the draft ended. Hell, their asses were safe. The soldiers didn't "rebel" against their commanders. There was isolant incidents, but the army was functioning and performing its military mission, and that was keeping south vietnam safe from the communists and inflicting HEAVY damage on the north vietnamese.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4848514 - 10/25/05 02:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers

I've seen documentaries with american soldiers in Nam where they were openly walking smoking dope and doing whatever they wanted and their officers darn't say a word to them. Officers who tried telling them what to do tended to be come back dead whenever they went into action.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4848519 - 10/25/05 02:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore

So why do you think Kennedy was talking about withdrawal as early as 1963?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4849212 - 10/25/05 06:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high.



I hear deserters and the numbers slipping into Canada are pretty high, too.

Quote:

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers.



The number of troops against Vietnam were high because they acknowledged the war was fruitless and meaningless, much like the war in Iraq is.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4849496 - 10/25/05 10:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers

I've seen documentaries with american soldiers in Nam where they were openly walking smoking dope and doing whatever they wanted and their officers darn't say a word to them. Officers who tried telling them what to do tended to be come back dead whenever they went into action.




I'm sure you've seen quite a few documentaries. They remain inapplicable to the situation in general. "Tended to be come back dead". No. The few instances of fragging were generally related to glory seeking assholes who consistently volunteered their patrols for hazardous duty, not for officers who made their troops hide their drug use. There never was a wholesale assassination of officers. Most of the soldiers did not join VVAW upon their return and few were junkies. I knew several then and I know several now. There has been far too much hysterical bullshit about both of these things


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4849537 - 10/25/05 11:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
From what I have heard re-enlistment is pretty high.



I hear deserters and the numbers slipping into Canada are pretty high, too.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-soldiers-re-enlist_x.htm
"Re-enlistment rates the past three years have been at least 6% above the service's goals for the 500,000-member active Army."

Recruitment is down but that is irrelevant to my point.

Got any stats for your assertion about deserters and new Canadians? What do you think is high? 1? 12? You?


Quote:

You know absolutely nothing at all about Vietnam if you think it was about the soldiers.



The number of troops against Vietnam were high because they acknowledged the war was fruitless and meaningless, much like the war in Iraq is.




No, again. It was because they were drafted. The enlistees tended to be pretty gung-ho. You can say they were stupid but that is completely beside the point.

Don't forget that the phrase "Silent Majority" was coined then. There was a reason for that. The noisy protesters got a lot of attention but the general poulation didn't share their opinion until quite late in the game. Your assertion that the American people were sternly against it is incorrect. Until very late in the sixties "The Greatest Generation" (spit) was all for it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4849554 - 10/25/05 11:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
First off, we left vietnam because our populous couldn't stomach the fight anymore

So why do you think Kennedy was talking about withdrawal as early as 1963?




We were barely even there then. It was not much more than a blip on the American consciousness in 1963.

http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/history/index.html

"At the time of the Kennedy and Diem assassinations, there were 16,000 military advisers in Vietnam. The Kennedy administration had managed to run the war from Washington without the large-scale introduction of American combat troops. The continuing political problems in Saigon, however, convinced the new president, Lyndon Baines Johnson, that more aggressive action was needed. Perhaps Johnson was more prone to military intervention or maybe events in Vietnam had forced the president's hand to more direct action. In any event, after a dubious DRV raid on two U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, the Johnson administration argued for expansive war powers for the president."

This was well before the hour of discontent and is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Further, Kennedy may have spoken, but he sure didn't act. By the way, nice link to the Kennedy quote where he talked about withdrawal.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4849664 - 10/25/05 12:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You're missing the point. If the only reason we went there was to "save them from the communists" why would Kennedy talk about withdrawing?


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