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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841669 - 10/23/05 04:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think Vietnam qualifies as genocide along with the US backed extermination of the people of East Timor.

As for the US funding the mass slaughter in Pinochet's Chile or the nightmarish terrorism of the Contras...perhaps attempted genocide is more accurate. It wasn't through any lack of trying those bastards failed, they just had too many people against them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841674 - 10/23/05 04:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Those were mass killings to be sure, and absolutely morally repregensible, but I don't think they meet the strict rrequirements to be considered genocides.




Genocides? Please. They were internal political struggles, one side of which we occasionally helped. Sometimes our side won. Sometimes it didn't. Horrible acts were committed by both sides. Bukkake is just mad because there's only one communist state left in SA and only one in the Caribbean.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841681 - 10/23/05 04:33 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To qualify as genocide, one or more of these actions have to be taken or attempted to be taken on an entire group of people:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Vietname was not genocide b/c (for the most part), we were not civilians purposefully. I lack knowledge to judge about Timor, though.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Redstorm]
    #4841715 - 10/23/05 04:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

To qualify as genocide, one or more of these actions have to be taken or attempted to be taken on an entire group of people

Doesn't dropping more bombs on Vietnam than were dropped during the Second World War qualify as genocide? Are we saying that amount of tonnage was somehow "targeted" away from civilians?

Or that spraying agent orange and napalm over huge swathes of the country was somehow targeted to avoid civilians?

Surely dropping that tonnage of explosives and chemicals on a country fulfills all those conditions?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841724 - 10/23/05 04:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't believe so. It was not an explicit plan to exterminate the civilians of Vietname. Intent matters as well.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841742 - 10/23/05 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Bukkake is just mad because there's only one communist state left in SA and only one in the Caribbean.



There isn't a hint of anger or madness in any of my replies in this thread. We would know if communism or socialism can or cannot exist if the US didn't place it upon itself the 'responsibility' to invade or destroy every sovereign country which decides, god forbid, to run its own country by its own guidelines for the betterment of every man or in SA, campesino alike, regardless of what the World Bank, IMF, or USA thinks.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841744 - 10/23/05 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
To qualify as genocide, one or more of these actions have to be taken or attempted to be taken on an entire group of people

Doesn't dropping more bombs on Vietnam than were dropped during the Second World War qualify as genocide? Are we saying that amount of tonnage was somehow "targeted" away from civilians?

Or that spraying agent orange and napalm over huge swathes of the country was somehow targeted to avoid civilians?

Surely dropping that tonnage of explosives and chemicals on a country fulfills all those conditions?




War isn't pretty, obviously.

Was it wrong for the South Vietnamese to oppose the communists?

Should they have just rolled over?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841753 - 10/23/05 04:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841765 - 10/23/05 04:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




Who knows what?

That the South Vietnamese should have rolled over?

Regardless of the business of the U.S or not, if the South Vietnamese were fighting so they wouldn't be taken over, then war was justified as a result. War is not a pretty thing.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841773 - 10/23/05 04:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless of the business of the U.S or not, if the South Vietnamese were fighting so they wouldn't be taken over, then war was justified as a result

Think the point B was making was that it was no business of the US dropping millions of tons of high explosives and chemicals on Vietnam. If the US had a disagreement regarding it's government presumably you wouldn't want the Chinese dropping Agent Orange on America?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841775 - 10/23/05 04:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I think Vietnam qualifies as genocide along with the US backed extermination of the people of East Timor.

As for the US funding the mass slaughter in Pinochet's Chile or the nightmarish terrorism of the Contras...perhaps attempted genocide is more accurate. It wasn't through any lack of trying those bastards failed, they just had too many people against them.




Do you even know what the word means? Yes Vietnam could be potentially characterized as genocide. The N. Vietnamese committed genocide against the S. Vietnamese. That would encompass the most liberal view of genocide to include the systematic killing of a political group. As to the nightmarish terrorism of the Contras it is quite clear that each side committed evil acts. The Sandanistas took over in a military coup in 1979, won an election in '84 and lost to Chamorro in '90. They have gradually lost more and more power ever since. They were not, however, slaughtered. CIA activities in Chile were marginal at best.

Is it your opinion that all wars are genocidal or just on America's part?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841776 - 10/23/05 04:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Regardless of the business of the U.S or not, if the South Vietnamese were fighting so they wouldn't be taken over, then war was justified as a result

Think the point B was making was that it was no business of the US dropping millions of tons of high explosives and chemicals on Vietnam. If the US had a civil war presumably you would want other countries to stay the hell out?




Did the South vietnamese want the U.S out?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841778 - 10/23/05 04:59 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

If Vietnam is having a civil war, who gives a shit? I don't feel it is worth the lives of American soldiers, nevermind a fucking draft.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841784 - 10/23/05 05:01 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
If Vietnam is having a civil war, who gives a shit? I don't feel it is worth the lives of American soldiers, nevermind a fucking draft.




So you've two have passed on the whole, "genocide for dropping bombs in vietnam" spiel? Good.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: bukkake]
    #4841790 - 10/23/05 05:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Who knows, but what business was it of the United States'?




The business of the US is what the US says it is. If you think Vietnam was a provincial little struggle you are very naive. It was a surrogate battlefield. That does not however negate the interests of the S Vietnamese in stopping the N Vietnamese invasion


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841795 - 10/23/05 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Did the South vietnamese want the U.S out?

Yes.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4841812 - 10/23/05 05:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So you've two have passed on the whole, "genocide for dropping bombs in vietnam" spiel? Good.

No but I havn't got the time to explain the origins of US involvement in Vietnam. It certainly had fuck-all to do with the North attacking the South. It isn't accurate to even talk about there being a "civil war". There was no "civil war" before the americans got involved in bombing the North.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841814 - 10/23/05 05:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Really?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4841819 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You mean the north wasn't invading the south? That's news to me.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4841821 - 10/23/05 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, really.


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