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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4833366 - 10/21/05 11:52 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
i have to smile when someone can write a review on a book, based on other reviews they read.




If you only wanted a book discussion, then why post it in this forum? Why not post it in the arts forum? This is politics forum and if you make a thread about a book and describe its general theme, it is asking to be discussed. I went and read reviews and summaries on it and made a post. God forbid? No, I didn't read it and I was wondering if any moonbat would have to make a brainfart comment about it. You win with 2.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833375 - 10/21/05 11:53 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together

Just call it murder then. Unlawfully killing a person.

"Collateral damage" is the kind of bullshit Chomsky and Zinn see through very clearly.


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833381 - 10/21/05 11:55 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Krishna said:
if i wrote a book, and instead of using the term 'collateral damage' i used the terms 'inadvertant murder of bystanders and civilians' would that be bias and/or distorting the truth? or would that description be closer to the 'truth' than the currently accepted one?




No it wouldn't be closer to the truth because it doesn't make sense. The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together. You might have to redo your sentence. If it still doesn't sound evil enough, load on the adjectives. But whatever you do, don't sound objective.




but what is objective? from the standpoint of the military, objectivity would be something like 'the inadvertant death of civilians who got in the line-of-fire of military opps', while from the standpoint of the people getting killed, objectivity would be like 'the melting of my brothers skin because some rich fuckwads are fighting each other over our land'

the point i mean to make is chomsky and zinn (and many others) are often seen as extremely biased because of how far from our current 'norm' they often stand. true objectivity does not attempt to satisfy everybody, nor does it attempt to be inoffensive/unblaming - it attempts to paint the full picture of any event.

as to Zinn's book, i'd definitely suggest reading it hand-in-hand with a 'regular' US history text - when I first read it, it was in an AP US History class in high-school, the teacher used the book as a supplement to our normal history text-book - and in such a situation, the book works as a great tool to provide the 'other-half' of the story. certainly, it is missing out on many positive events that occured in US history - but Zinn writes in the beginning that the purpose of the book is not to provide a full spectrum analysis of US history, but rather to tell the stories of many silenced voices...


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4833386 - 10/21/05 11:56 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Just call it murder then. Unlawfully killing a person.





It isn't the intention to kill, so therefore no murder. Try again.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833393 - 10/21/05 11:59 AM (16 years, 8 days ago)

It isn't the intention to kill, so therefore no murder

Dropping explosives into heavily populated areas isn't intended to kill?

So if Timothy Mcveigh had said "I was aiming at the building not the people in it" would that have cleared him of murder?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Alex213]
    #4833401 - 10/21/05 12:03 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It isn't the intention to kill, so therefore no murder

Dropping explosives into heavily populated areas isn't intended to kill?

So if Timothy Mcveigh had said "I was aiming at the building not the people in it" would that have cleared him of murder?




This isn't difficult to understand.

It wasn't the intention to kill those that aren't military targets.

Timothy Mcveigh attempted to kill the innocent civilians.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833406 - 10/21/05 12:05 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

if that's what will help you shelve the skeletons
in your closet...that's fine, I guess.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833410 - 10/21/05 12:07 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

It wasn't the intention to kill those that aren't military targets.


It's still obvious if you drop explosives in heavily populated areas innocent people are going to die.

If someone leaves a bomb in a mall with the intention of blowing up a store and instead they kill 20 people my guess is they'd be tried with murder.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: afoaf]
    #4833411 - 10/21/05 12:08 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
if that's what will help you shelve the skeletons
in your closet...that's fine, I guess.




What are you blabbering about? We are talking about definitions. Not justifications. Want a try at the topic at hand? Maybe you can even make your own. Don't be upset if its too hard though.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4833497 - 10/21/05 12:49 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

The definition of inadvertant and murder don't go together.





try telling that to the author(s) of the Torah.

Quote:

For every transgression against the will of G-d is, by definition, an act of "inadvertent murder": murder, because one has violated the essence and raison d'?tre of one's own life; inadvertent, because man is inherently and intrinsically good, and all evil deeds result only from a lapse of awareness of one's own true will.




let me guess though, religious (con)text doesn't count.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834196 - 10/21/05 03:22 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

What are you blabbering about?




no offense, but aren't you the one that didn't even read the book, and only became involved in this topic because of reviews you read?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834264 - 10/21/05 03:33 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

He doesn't even know who Howard Zinn is. He just knows he's on the left side of the political spectrum.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834419 - 10/21/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

What are you blabbering about?




no offense, but aren't you the one that didn't even read the book, and only became involved in this topic because of reviews you read?




Ahh, again you mention I didn't read the book for the 3rd time. So, i'll ask again... why did you post this here if you only wanted discussion on those who read the book? The media forum would probably be the best place for this.

As I've said before... since you made the thread I read reviews and summaries of the book. Is that not enough to comment in your esteemed thread? I apologize.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4834630 - 10/21/05 04:44 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

well seeing that i am more interested in the political side of it, rather than the literary side (although he is a good writer) I decided to post in the politics forum.

there are no requirements for posting in my "esteemed thread," (although reading the book would probably help) and there is no need to apologize, but it seems like this entire thread started wandering off into noam chomsky, semantics and left-wingism.

I found it interesting that this book was used as a companion to a standard history book.. that would actually make much more sense in establishing 2 opposing points of view on the same subjects.

strange enough, i saw the newest smallville this morning and someone says something to the effect that "history is not about facts, it is about what happens to who, and what the result is from that perspective"

that was probably the worst paraphrasing ever, but it sounds much like the famous Napoleon Bonaparte quote, which I prefer.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4834829 - 10/21/05 05:42 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Honestly, reading reviews on books, and then claiming that the author is a polarized, biased person is rather hypocritical. Think about it, Howard Zinn is being accused of being inaccurate and taking liberity with information... and we know this because we read someone else's opinion of it?


And so it's an opinion based on other people's opinion of a book. And then comes in the typical "liberal" comment.

Chomsky, on the other hand, has been fairly debunked before in this forum. But that was focusing on the actual content.

All that being said, I agree somewhat with Paradigm that you can't take an author's opinion as truth until you've verified it independantly. That doesn't mean you should dismiss them automatically either, just know that history is interperted subjectively, and that no matter what you read, it's only one portion of the overall event (or multiple positions collected in some cases).


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4834876 - 10/21/05 05:53 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

i just knocked out another 2 chapters since my last post, and I went back to notice that a majority of this book is not by Howard Zinn, but rather quotes from magazine articles, court documents, treaties, books and speeches...

so if anyone should really be accused of misinformation or being sensational, it should be those quoted in the book, and not its author, since his only role is to point out dates and places, and to keep the stories all within a certain context (that context I guess many could argue is biased).

I would like some links to these Chomsky debunking threads though. I have not read much of his work (actually I haven't read any of his books, only bits and pieces from articles.. and a few interviews). I did see the Penn & Teller episode though.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: kotik]
    #4834928 - 10/21/05 06:02 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Just do a search in PAL forum for Chomsky, you'll find a ton of them.


I think the next step is to research the documents he made reference to and see whether he was accurate in quoting them, or whether he selectively left out material. Probably easier said than done though.


It's also worth noting that an author doesn't have to capture a historical event in its entirity, just the information relevent to his/her thesis. Other wise it would make for a really pointless read with too many tangents. The author DOES have the responsibilty of making sure what s/he publishes is accurate though.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4834960 - 10/21/05 06:09 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
Honestly, reading reviews on books, and then claiming that the author is a polarized, biased person is rather hypocritical. Think about it, Howard Zinn is being accused of being inaccurate and taking liberity with information... and we know this because we read someone else's opinion of it?




Why are you replying to me? Don't put words into my mouth. Show me where I claimed the author is polarized and biased. In fact, show me where I said anything about the author at all.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: Twirling]
    #4834973 - 10/21/05 06:13 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

hah, well this thesis (from my own conclusion) being that the poor-whites and the non-whites are of the most oppressed in this country, from 1492 till now.

I don't think I would describe that as a hard thing to portray, quite the opposite.. those who wrote the standard history texts must have had quite a challenge presenting american history as something to hold pride in.

I do agree with this book being the perfect antidote for patriotism.. had I not already been an avid reader of Emma Goldman since 10th grade, it would have probably shattered my concept of patriotism / nationalism.


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Howard Zinn - People's History [Re: looner2]
    #4835107 - 10/21/05 06:47 PM (16 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Why are you replying to me? Don't put words into my mouth. Show me where I claimed the author is polarized and biased. In fact, show me where I said anything about the author at all.




Quote:

looner2 said:
Is it any secret? It is written to breed self-loathing. Endulge!




Quote:

looner2 said:
I never read the book, but from the reviews I've read it seems like the perfect antidote for patriotism. Nothing invigorates liberals more than a hefty dose of guilt swelling into their gullet. It is just regrettable that some have to be on the receiving end of the vomit that comes immediately thereafter.




Alright, so you never directly said he was polarized or biased, but you made a comment that it was written to breed self-loathing, which is quite a comment on the author as well as implying that the book is biased. At any rate, you're dismissing the book without providing any examples why it "is written to breed self-loathing". If you're going to say that "liberals" get invigorated by this type of thing, it ignores whether or not the author's premise in the book is valid. Instead, it's just a rhetorical way of presenting the book as vomit inducing liberal antidote for patriotism.

To your credit, you never directly said that the author was biased or polarized. But your reaction to the book isn't based on the book itself, just rhertoric about liberals. Shouldn't a book be judged based on the quality of it's premise, rather than reducing it to intentions of breeding self-loathing?


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