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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinerobmac9090
typical tadpole

Registered: 08/09/05
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Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 30 days
A strange and hard to explain thought
    #4805773 - 10/14/05 11:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not sure which forum this belongs in...please move it if it is inappropriate.


I was thinking to myself in chemisty class the other day while the prof was discussing the formation of all the elements that exist today. I realised that every single thing in the world/universe is made up of chemicals/atoms. It seems to me, that if it were possible to take a molecular "snapshot" of every atom at any given time, would you not be able to predict the next frame without ever actually having to seeing it? This is terribly hard for me to explain correctly. What I'm trying to say is if you could map everything that existed at a certain time chemically...the laws of physics and chemistry should be able to tell you EXACTLY what will happen in the next second, and the next, and the next.

Anyways, if anyone can actually somewhat understand what I'm talking about, it leads me to the major question, which is...If everything can be mapped out as stated above...do we really have the power to make any of our own decisions? The chemicals in my body and yours are all going to react with the environment in a predetermined way, every thought that races through your mind is made from a set of chemical reactions, that can be traced back to the dawn of time...and any future actions can be predicted in advance by simply following the laws of science.

If this strikes a chord with anyone, please post...I feel like I belong in a crazy house talking about all these things :confused:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: robmac9090]
    #4805799 - 10/14/05 11:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately, our understanding of Quantum mechanics is not predictable and Brownian motion CURRENTLY APPEARS totally random. But, once we overcome that hurtle, its seems reasonable to think we would be able to predict things as you implied. Although, I think we'd have to understand everything 'above' it too. Like how chemisty expands to biology and such.
:shrug: That was a good question! It'll probably keep my up all night.

And,
If you search the Rationality forum for determinism you'll find some damn good discussions.


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Offlinerobmac9090
typical tadpole

Registered: 08/09/05
Posts: 81
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 30 days
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4805844 - 10/14/05 11:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I certainly hope that the world does not end up to be the way that I described....it would be incredibly depressing if everything was already planned out in advance. Almost like some sort of cruel joke that someone would play to get a few laughs. I hope all those scientists know what they're in for when they finally discover how everything works, I bet they'll be pretty damn disapointed.


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OfflineAngeloWish
Sr. Mydriasis

Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 595
Loc: MEXICO-Mushroom Capital
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: robmac9090]
    #4806032 - 10/15/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Nice thoughts for class but nah... nothing predictable around, 'will' can always change the next second.
The world will never be a depressing place by itself. And nature will keep surprising us for while, dun worry.


--------------------
+'this' reality is the one i like the most+


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OfflineBlek
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: AngeloWish]
    #4806439 - 10/15/05 03:09 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's a very interesting idea and I've also pondered this a lot. What's even more interesting though, is that we can completely override this concept if we chose to through free thought. Or are these "free thoughts" just another step in the equation that makes up our craniums?

It is mindboggling to think about but ultimately there can be no correct answer.

I didn't want to go offtopic but MY BELIEF is that organized religion, either subconsciously or consciously, stems from the fear of the above mentioned theory or similar theories. By similar I mean "Human insignificance" type of theories. This frightens people that they may not be unique or may not have "a purpose in life". So they create a counterfeit purpose for their lives. Hence, faith, heaven, hell, etc.

Great topic! Next time I trip, possibly tomorrow, I am going to make a note to myself to think about this.

I hate that I'm even putting a disclaimer in this post, as it is strictly MY belief, BUT.. for the sake of sparing everyone a heated argument..

This post was not meant to offend anyone who takes part in organized religious practices or otherwise.


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OfflineTheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Blek]
    #4806556 - 10/15/05 05:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

hey check out the thread I started on predeterminism versus freewill, there is a great lecture in MP3 format, by Stephen Hawking...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4796941/an/0/page/0

The thing is, the universe has been proven to be predetermined... "god" or whatever deity you want to believe in, indeed did plan everything out...

And if you knew the speed and location of all the particles in the universe, you could accurrately predict the future! but since you don't know the location or the speed of a particle at the same time, it would be impossible...

also, since our brain has over 100,000,000 cells, it is too unpredictable to decipher...

what happens in the universe is the will of the subconscious...

predeterminism fascinates me... there are lots of physicists working on a "grand unified theory", thats suppose to prove how the universe works, and what is planned...




it really bends your mind to understand that everything is predetermined...

the universe isn't suppose to be infinite... it BENDS... so... if you had a space ship, and travelled in one straight line, you would end up at the same place you started!!! our human minds cannot even fathom how this works!

I think the universe is just a chemical reaction, the big bang was the first chemical reaction, which leads to another, then to another then to another...

whoever created the universe supposebly even decided all the trivial details which would happen... within... the universe... IE: wars, history... planets forming... comets colliding with earth, DNA, dinosaurs etc etc


my theory, is that... there have been many, many, many big bangs, an infinite amount, and existence loops in ontself, like the letter 8... and the current, "NOW" moment is merely a peg in an ongoing timeline... and we live within a world within a world, that just keeps looping in on itself...

existence may just be one giant, complicated planned software program, a world, within a world, within a world, within a world... (etc) that ends up invariably, where it begins...


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OfflineTheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: TheProphet]
    #4806558 - 10/15/05 05:59 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I also think your ego, tries to blind you from the truth that we are all one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively... that reality is just an illusion, a planned, persistent illusion! (hopefully, a fun, exhilerating and rewarding existence!)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: robmac9090]
    #4806582 - 10/15/05 06:46 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think, it is not so much an illusion, because it can influence your soul very deeply. I think, both worlds are dependent somehow on each other.
I also think, that we somewhen will discover every secret of our scientific universe, so our range of control will become larger and larger, but I also think, that we have a kind of free will, what will give cause to actions.
Nowadays it is not understood, how determinism and free will can work together, but it is that part of spiritual secret, what is to be discovered.
The paradox includes, how, even, if we have free will, g*d will always know, which decision we will make.
Remember, our free will is the cause of actions.. could it be, that the phenomena of 'free will' itself is also the cause of existence itself ?

Nice thread to think about :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineTheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4806665 - 10/15/05 08:05 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Good stuff BlueCoyote... I agree with you how it influences your soul very deeply...

thats cool how you think we'll discover every secret of the scientific universe... I believe that is true... but I also think we'll open up a can of worms or something, like we might be able to scientifically create black holes or some shit and inadvertently destroy earth or something lol

Quote:

The paradox includes, how, even, if we have free will, g*d will always know, which decision we will make.
Remember, our free will is the cause of actions.. could it be, that the phenomena of 'free will' itself is also the cause of existence itself ?




I am not too sure, still thinking on this one...

cool post.


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Offlinerobmac9090
typical tadpole

Registered: 08/09/05
Posts: 81
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 30 days
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: TheProphet]
    #4807204 - 10/15/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I loved that Hawking lecture that is in the other post. He summarizes by saying: "Is everything determined? Yes it is, but it might as well not be because we can never know what is determined."

I think that we can take it one step further (which he briefly mentioned in the lecture) that even if we could see the future, it would alter our actions anyways. Very interesting indeed.

Picking4Peace...good luck with your trip. I have a feeling I would get stuck in a bad thought loop thinking of this stuff. It'd go something like "Everything I do is predetermined, but I can choose to blink my eyes, but maybe I was supposed to blink my eyes...but I can raise my right hand, but maybe I was supposed to raise my right hand..."  lol, I think you get the point  :crazy2:


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OfflineTheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: robmac9090]
    #4810446 - 10/16/05 10:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

robmac, glad you enjoyed the lecture... it really blows my mind... i've listened to the lecture like 20 times, and I am STILL trying to figure out whether or not my life is merely an illusion, if I have freewill or if everything is predetermined...

Shit man, if stephen hawking says everything is predetermined... it must be... he's like the smartest physicist on the planet...

Yeah, if we could see into the future, we can alter it... and to see into the future, we have to develop a mathematical grand unified theory that predicts everything... but the grand unified theory decides when the grand unified theory will be discovered... so it's like a paradox...

damn stephen hawking and his genius!!!

here is the link to the lecture:

stephen hawking's lecture on freewill/determinism


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OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
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Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: TheProphet]
    #4810842 - 10/16/05 12:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheProphet said:
I was automatically writing, prophecizing the future




OK, I know I don't have the answers and if you received insider information then I think you should perhaps think about taking on the Randi challenge and apply the proceeds to whatever way you think is best.

I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavors and I hope you are forever a merit to your guiding spirit and source of inspiration .

Namaste.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.


Edited by Booby (10/16/05 01:39 PM)


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: robmac9090]
    #4810899 - 10/16/05 01:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

even having a map, one could make alternative maps, to find surprises in the moment!.. :P


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Invisibleyousuck
Stranger

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 616
Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Gomp]
    #4812339 - 10/16/05 07:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shit man, if stephen hawking says everything is predetermined... it must be... he's like the smartest physicist on the planet...





i think stephen hawking was predetermined to confuse people with random baseless theories. Not everything is made of chemicals, not everything is made of atoms, photons arent made of smaller particles, they dont even have mass. Our universe has neither physical dimensions, shape, direction or borders, as those properties would defy the principles of infinity. It neither bends nor expands. Math cannot define everything despite the fact reality is mathetmatical in nature.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: yousuck]
    #4813540 - 10/16/05 10:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Huh?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: robmac9090]
    #4815314 - 10/17/05 08:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I firmly believe in the absoluteness of cause and effect: if you were somehow able to make a snapshot of the Anything & All, and knew all variables, you would be abl;e to predict the next "frame" or that 1.643.764 years, 7 months a week anf four days from now at 5:00AM EST.

This indeed implies absolute predestination and eternal reincarnation in every possible way.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OfflineGomp
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Gomp]
    #4815322 - 10/17/05 09:01 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

cause and effect, is the same.. :P


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Gomp]
    #4815331 - 10/17/05 09:04 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

cause and effect would only be the same in my view if time itself were cyclic. But then again I believe it is. If you are in our timeline then 2 is the effect of 1 and the cause of 3, aside from being in it's full 2-ness.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OfflineGomp
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Asante]
    #4815373 - 10/17/05 09:20 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

causing the effect, is the effect of the cause..

saying a cause demands effect, & vice versa, feeds the illusion.. :smile:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Asante]
    #4815710 - 10/17/05 11:20 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

butterfly effect...
chaos


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: Ego Death]
    #4815972 - 10/17/05 12:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

elephant-fart effect...
order

(hehe, sorry...couldn't resist)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinevoooom
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4817214 - 10/17/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

what role to drugs play in all this?

are we cheating the system using them?

on the one hand you can say they are here and we have free will and we are discovering, learning thru there use or on the other hand are we partaking in forbidden fruit? - learning things we aren't suppossed to know and fucking things up?

Sometimes I feel like this, like I never opened the door and things would be simpler.

hmmmmmmm....


--------------------
There where nothing is
everything in fact is.
Penetrate this secret
and you will vanish from yourself
then alone in truth you are"

Indian Mystic


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: A strange and hard to explain thought [Re: voooom]
    #4817451 - 10/17/05 06:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You should check out some choas theory and quantum mechanic... shit will blow your mind...


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