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InvisibleZippoZM
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Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq?
    #4804050 - 10/14/05 04:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

im conflicted on this, i am... but you have to give the guys some applause for what they are doing.

the war they are fighting with the u.s. is no different from the one that won us our independance a few hundred years ago.

they knocked out 70% of the power in bahgdad and 2 surronding cities, the vote on the us based constitution is coming up in a few hours, and im sure that we are going to see massive carnage un-fold.......

on one hand i can understand that they are fighting for their liberty in their country, but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify and or understand


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804072 - 10/14/05 04:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I can understand and even accept their motivations, but I don't have any respect for people who go around blowing up or killing other people.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinedebianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: trendal]
    #4804089 - 10/14/05 04:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you don't have respect for the people who fought the revolutionary war against the oppresive british regime?

i see no difference, really.

you are canoodian...

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: debianlinux]
    #4804111 - 10/14/05 04:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you don't have respect for the people who fought the revolutionary war against the oppresive british regime?

Not really, no.

Human brutality does not command my respect, whether it be justified or not. I can agree with a cause, but I don't have to respect the people who do violence in the name of that cause.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblelatierra
growing
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 41
Loc: world
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: debianlinux]
    #4804113 - 10/14/05 04:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

No matter how you may see the different points of view American or not people are dieing for a cause that was meant to give a country a systematic freedom from a oppressive govt.

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: latierra]
    #4804122 - 10/14/05 04:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You people are acting like they represent every Iraqi. The Sunni insurgents just want their power back so they can keep fucking the Shias and Kurds up the asshole and slicing their kids dicks off.

Then you have the Shia mofos running around kidnapping Sunnis because the Sunnis always slaughtered the Shias and Saddam is a Sunni.

So which ones are you supporting? The ones that were slaughtered by Saddam and the Sunnis, or the ones that lost their power over the majority of the Iraqi population.

By the way, the Sunni insurgents don't want any voting, why would they want their former subhuman neighbors voting? DUH


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

Edited by downforpot (10/14/05 04:36 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804133 - 10/14/05 04:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
on one hand i can understand that they are fighting for their liberty in their country, but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify and or understand



Are they really fighting for liberty, though? I understand them wanting America out of their country, but many of them want to overthrow the constitutional government and establish a Muslim theocracy. That's not what I'd call liberty.


--------------------

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Invisiblelatierra
growing
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 41
Loc: world
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: downforpot]
    #4804169 - 10/14/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

it's funny how people are quick to jump over the situation. I'm not here for anyone that is willing to take a life , but by completing this jester of thought. If you can come to take life, then your ready to come and pay. No matter how you see the the fine line people are dieing and what part are you doing to change in your life to make the situation more calm?(Community). We should be beyond the caveman method! I'm out!!!

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804178 - 10/14/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

they are scum. not because they are fighting the US. but they are slaughtering thousands of iraqi citizens. they are just detonating cars in populated areas to wipe out people. most of the time they arent even getting US troops. also , i might HATE bush. i might wish horrible things for the neocons. but i have a real hard time rooting for an insugency that kills american kids.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: latierra]
    #4804183 - 10/14/05 04:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The insurgents are targeting civilians (women and children) and Iraqi policemen... as well as U.S forces.

But then again, I am not surprised a self-expressed "pacifist" would root for others to kill in the name of something they don't necessarily believe in as long as their own countrymen are dying.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4804188 - 10/14/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
they are scum. not because they are fighting the US. but they are slaughtering thousands of iraqi citizens. they are just detonating cars in populated areas to wipe out people. most of the time they arent even getting US troops. also , i might HATE bush. i might wish horrible things for the neocons. but i have a real hard time rooting for an insugency that kills american kids.




Your not entirely unreasonable. I think i like you. Want to be my girlfriend?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Invisibleivi
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,089
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804189 - 10/14/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify or understand




And american soldiers are not killing people?


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ivi]
    #4804197 - 10/14/05 04:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

zippoz said:
but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify or understand




And american soldiers are not killing people?




Nope. Child-murdering-islamo-facist-dogshit terrorists are not people. This is a fact. They are not human.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Registered: 06/17/03
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4804199 - 10/14/05 04:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i cant support the murder of anyone,i can understand killing in self defense in a person to person battle, but shit how did we let this get so complicated.

i am willing to bet that we will see more carnage than we have in the last month today during the elections...


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4804203 - 10/14/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yea, they sure are. But can you really compare people that target civilians on purpose and soldiers that are trying to get out alive and kill insurgents that are hiding in the population?

The insurgents have nothing to lose, they can kill kids, women, unarmed people, anyone.

Remember how they tried to suicide attack American troops that were giving out candy to kids? Well, no Americans died, THANK GOD, oh wait, at least 20 Iraqi kids were blown to bits.... DAAAAAMN


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Invisibleivi
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,089
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4804215 - 10/14/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

zippoz said:
but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify or understand




And american soldiers are not killing people?




Nope. Child-murdering-islamo-facist-dogshit terrorists are not people. This is a fact. They are not human.




I'm pretty sure that american soldiers are dirty bastards as well, they're just better at hiding it. I think that the Iraq war prisoner abuse is just the top of the iceberg.


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Invisiblelatierra
growing
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: downforpot]
    #4804218 - 10/14/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

All I can say is grab a rifle and make a difference, our make a difference with what you know now and what you feel!!! I do my part every fucking day with this situation!!!

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ivi]
    #4804224 - 10/14/05 05:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

zippoz said:
but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify or understand




And american soldiers are not killing people?




Nope. Child-murdering-islamo-facist-dogshit terrorists are not people. This is a fact. They are not human.




I'm pretty sure that american soldiers are dirty bastards as well, they're just better at hiding it. I think that the Iraq war prisoner abuse is just the top of the iceberg.




American soldiers are dirty bastards? Isn't that nice. They are the ones killing the vermin (terrorists) that are killing children. They are keeping peace, building infastructure, and bonding with the local population. How about you do some research on what is actually going there?


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Invisibleivi
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4804233 - 10/14/05 05:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Off I go to watch some FOX news.


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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
J♠
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ivi]
    #4804236 - 10/14/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ivi said:
Off I go to watch some FAUX news.




--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineCherk
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4804237 - 10/14/05 05:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

zippoz said:
but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify or understand




And american soldiers are not killing people?




Nope. Child-murdering-islamo-facist-dogshit terrorists are not people. This is a fact. They are not human.




I'm pretty sure that american soldiers are dirty bastards as well, they're just better at hiding it. I think that the Iraq war prisoner abuse is just the top of the iceberg.




American soldiers are dirty bastards? Isn't that nice. They are the ones killing the vermin (terrorists) that are killing children. They are keeping peace, building infastructure, and bonding with the local population. How about you do some research on what is actually going there?




True but you can't ignore the fact that there wouldn't be nearly as many car bombings or children dying had America not invaded in the first place. Not to mention the fact that the instability in Iraq caused by our invasion is the reason why Al Qaeda is now establishing their new headquarters there...How's that fit into the war on terror?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

Edited by Smoker For Peace (10/14/05 05:13 PM)

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: downforpot]
    #4804243 - 10/14/05 05:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't watch fox news, I don't even watch CNN that much. Most of the shit I get is off the internet. I don't see the insurgents building schools and fixing the public utilities while blowing up civilians on a daily basis. I also don't see them prosecuting eachother for atrocities/abuses.

P.S. Wanna see Sunni insurgents cut off an unarmed Iraqi's head and then place it on his back? And then blindfold 10 men and shoot them in the backs of the heads? I got mad gore shit from Iraq. Just ask. Wanna see the shit they do "IN THE FLESH" ? lol


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Invisibleivi
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Posts: 9,089
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Cherk]
    #4804244 - 10/14/05 05:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Smoker For Peace said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

ivi said:
Quote:

zippoz said:
but on the other hand they are killing people, which is very very hard for me to justify or understand




And american soldiers are not killing people?




Nope. Child-murdering-islamo-facist-dogshit terrorists are not people. This is a fact. They are not human.




I'm pretty sure that american soldiers are dirty bastards as well, they're just better at hiding it. I think that the Iraq war prisoner abuse is just the top of the iceberg.




American soldiers are dirty bastards? Isn't that nice. They are the ones killing the vermin (terrorists) that are killing children. They are keeping peace, building infastructure, and bonding with the local population. How about you do some research on what is actually going there?




True but you can't ignore the fact that there wouldn't be nearly as many car bombings or children dying had America not invaded in the first place. Not to mention the fact that the instability in Iraq caused by our invasion is the reason why Al Qaeda is now establishing their new headquarters there...How's that fit into the war on terror?




Pax Americana


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Offlinedebianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4804250 - 10/14/05 05:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
many of them want to overthrow the constitutional government and establish a Muslim theocracy.  That's not what I'd call liberty.




i call having the government that you want pretty much liberty.
having another country install it's government for you is not.

hmm, why haven't the pub mods moved this "trash" to PA&L? :shocked: :wink:

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
J♠
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: debianlinux]
    #4804255 - 10/14/05 05:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Not a bad idea, at this point...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinecrystallize
Bud Lightspokesman

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 576
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Cherk]
    #4804263 - 10/14/05 05:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I honestly don't know how I feel about this issue. I'm glad our troops are over there fighting for our freedom, and I'm glad it's not happening here in the us. But all the damn violence makes me sick. Why the fuck should we go over there and help a country that obviously doesn't want it? To keep ourselves safe? Look at what it's costing us.

Fuck, I don't know.

I say we all go over there and start passing out doses to everyone. Iraqi's, us troops... Then maybe they'll see the light.


--------------------

Thank you for drinking Bud Light.

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Offlinedebianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: crystallize]
    #4804269 - 10/14/05 05:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

crystallize said:
Why the fuck should we go over there and help a country that obviously doesn't want it? To keep ourselves safe? Look at what it's costing us




but we need this oil-rich nation to have a government that is friendly for us

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: downforpot]
    #4804294 - 10/14/05 05:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Oil rich nation? WHY THE FUCK IS GAS 3 DOLLARS A GALLON?!!?!?!?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804296 - 10/14/05 05:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i don't respect them at all. they actively target innocent civilians, their own countrymen, to create dissent. that strategy is so fucked. they are not guerrillas. they are terrorists.


--------------------


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Offlinedebianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: downforpot]
    #4804299 - 10/14/05 05:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

1stly, $3/gal is cheap as hell

2ndly, a friendly government will keep it that way

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: debianlinux]
    #4804301 - 10/14/05 05:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Is this a marijuana pipe?


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4804302 - 10/14/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

it's a whatever you choose to smoke out of it pipe, it could be a water straw for god's sake

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4804304 - 10/14/05 05:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

that is not a pipe


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Offlinedebianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: wilshire]
    #4804312 - 10/14/05 05:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: debianlinux]
    #4804316 - 10/14/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:
i call having the government that you want pretty much liberty.
having another country install it's government for you is not.



Having the government you want isn't liberty if it involves subjugating others under its rule. The insurgents are in the minority, but they wish to subject the whole country to theocratic tyranny.


--------------------

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Invisibleroby000
me
Trans-male
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? *DELETED* [Re: debianlinux]
    #4804319 - 10/14/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by roby000

Reason for deletion: d

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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: roby000]
    #4804337 - 10/14/05 05:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

This is what the insurgents want http://massgraves.info/

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Invisiblelatierra
growing
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804346 - 10/14/05 05:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

This is for the gas comment.

SOURCES OF US OIL IMPORTS

The Map below is based on data from Energy Information Administration for 2003, and includes both imported crude and petroleum products (see note and table below the map for 2001-2002). Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, and Venezuela are the leading suppliers. The map shows all countries that supply 1% or more of our imports, and the countries shown total about 85% of all imports.
2004 UPDATE: US Imports total about 61% of consumption: 13.12 million barrels per day in July 2004, out of total consumption of 21.4 million barrels per day.
Which companies import oil?
ANSWER: Read this and this and this and this.


NOTE ON IMPORTS FROM IRAQ: US oil imports from Iraq have fluctuated greatly over the past 15 years. In 1990, imports from Iraq accounted for about 6.4% of our imports. From 1991 to 1996, due to sanctions, Iraq provided NO exports to the US. In 1999 (average 6.7%), 2000 (5.4%), 2001 (6.7%), and 2002 (3.9% - yes, less than four percent), amounts varied a lot from month to month. More data at Energy Info. Administration




In 2002, Canada led the world in our sources of imports, at 17%, with Saudi Arabia (13.7%), Mexico (13.5%), and Venezuela (12%) in a virtual three-way tie for second. The year before the percentages were Canada - 15.4%, Saudi Arabia - 14%, Venezuela - 13%, and Mexico - 12.1%. Canada has been the leader since at least 2001. In 2002, US imports from the Persian Gulf region amounted to 19.8 percent of our total imports. The same year, a total of 40% came from OPEC member nations -- which include countries such as Venezuela and Indonesia that are outside the Persian Gulf. More Information

World Consumers and Importers 2003: see EIA here for more info. Leading Oil Consumers Leading Oil Importers Leading sources of US imports
USA (20 million barrels per day)
China (5.6)
Japan (5.5)
Germany USA (11.1 million b/d)
Japan (5.3)
Germany (2.5)
South Korea (2.2) Canada (17%)
Saudi Arabia (14.5%)
Mexico (13%)
Venezuela (11%)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are gasoline prices so high?
THEY AREN'T.
Compared to 1981, inflation adjusted-prices today are 27 cents CHEAPER than the $3.11 all-time high (inflation-adjusted) gasoline cost in March 1981. SOURCE. For one example of a 1979-2005 inflation-adjusted and nominal price chart for gasoline, click here. And here is another version.

Some Factors in the 2004-2005 cost of gasoline in the US
For an alternative view of costs that go into oil and gasoline, including things that are difficult to quantify, such as the cost to the environment and costs of military and political defense of oil reserves, visit Greenpeace.

The price of Crude is up - as high as $70 per barrel.
This is because worldwide supply is tight and 1) gasoline demand in the US is up despite high prices - 4.3% more than 2003. Americans simply refuse to conserve. This is not trivial considering that the US, with 5% of the world's population, consumes 45% of the gasoline produced on earth. 2) Gasoline demand is surging in China, where crude oil imports increased 30% in 2003.
Refinery capacity in the US is near its maximum. Hurricanes Katrina and Rita impacted some refineries. Even before Katrina, average refinery capacity was less than US gasoline consumption More info. Oil tanker capacity for trans-oceanic shipping is also 100% reserved for the forseeable future, and shipping costs have nearly tripled [more info].
The US deficit, around $500 billion in 2004, causes the value of the dollar to decline. Because oil is priced in dollars, no matter where in the world it comes from, producers want higher prices in order to maintain their income.
The US Government is buying at these high prices supplies for the strategic petroleum reserve. A minor impact, but some.
Local requirements for special gasoline blends to meet environmental regulations result in smaller batches, which are more expensive for refineries to produce. Applies especially to California.
Costs reflect distance from refineries (transportation cost). In the US, 50% of gasoline is refined in the Gulf Coast.
Variations reflect local taxes. Federal excise tax on gasoline is about 19? per gallon; state tax averages about 23? per gallon; in California there is an additional 7.5% sales tax.
Economic woes in Venezuela are impacting US imports more than problems in the Middle East. US imports from Venezuela were down 19% in 2003, and Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, and Saudi Arabia are the US's main suppliers, normally at about 15% each ? but Venezuela in 2003 only provided about 12% of our imports (see table above).
Any time there is a problem with a pipeline or refinery, it can impact the supply of gasoline at least in local markets, and the price can spike.
Credit card fees paid by retailers amount to about 3.5%, or 7 cents a gallon at $2.00 per gallon. This is more than enough to eliminate all profit for the retailer, and in many cases results in an actual loss of several cents per gallon -- absorbed either through increased pump prices or in other elements of a retailer's business. Retailers with no other sources of profit may go out of business, further restricting ability to deliver gasoline. So don't blame the corner gas station -- even the company-owned ones. The latter may absorb such losses through profits elsewhere in the system, but a loss is still a loss.
Even with all of this, the true price of gasoline has fallen more than 40% from its inflation-adjusted price of $3.11 per gallon in 1981. And in the US, at $2.50 per gallon, we pay about one-half to one-third of the price western Europeans and others have paid for many years. Icelanders pay about $6.12 per gallon (2004).
See also the EIA page, Primer on Gasoline Prices.

www.gravmag.com/oil.html

Edited by latierra (10/14/05 05:51 PM)

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: roby000]
    #4804348 - 10/14/05 05:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

the united states cannot fight a popular guerrilla army in iraq, or anywhere, and win. the losses we'd incur and the tactics we'd have to use to win such a war would not be tolerated. public support would be nil. we'd be gone as soon as we got our shit packed.

the insurgents are not fighting a good fight. they are a minority, and their attitude is, "if we ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." people aren't fed up with the occupation as much as they'd like people to be, so they stir things up by blowing up an occasional market full of civilians. it's sick.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: wilshire]
    #4804453 - 10/14/05 06:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i have no problem with the insurgents killing anyone who infringes upon their human rights, whether that person is an iraqi, american, or other.

but i don't agree with your comment that "on one hand i can understand that they are fighting for their liberty in their country"

fundamentalist muslims do not fight for liberty. period. they just fight to be in control, because they would rather be the controllers than the controlled. its a power struggle, that's all.

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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: nonick]
    #4804458 - 10/14/05 06:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

all fights, by definition, are power struggles.

(i think i'm in a rut, here)

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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804466 - 10/14/05 06:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
the war they are fighting with the u.s. is no different from the one that won us our independance a few hundred years ago.






i see a world of difference... the US revolutionaries were fighting for self rule, against an imperialist state that taxed them into poverty and conscripted their children...

the insurgents in iraq are people from other arab countries who want to kill anyone that doesn't follow their religion...

it isn't like these are iraqis fighting for freedom from the US, they're saudis and syrians who can go home anytime they wish...


--------------------
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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804479 - 10/14/05 06:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I only have respect for those who refuse to target unarmed noncombatants.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804799 - 10/14/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I have no respect for anyone who harms civilians, insurgents and US soldiers alike. Let all the insurgents and US soldiers kill each other off so we may move on with evolution.

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804951 - 10/14/05 08:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The tree of liberty must be fed with the blood of patriots... Or something..


I say that Sadam was right.. Look at what this country turns into once you take away the threat of discipline...

Liberty my ass.. Until the Christians take over all religions, places like Iraq will never be free.. These places house too many fighting religions (factions)who will die for their cause and no "constitution" will EVER rectify that...

Sadam saw this as a truth and acted accordingly.. Until we came in the county was at general peace with its self.. When people acted up the government stepped in and took care of it.. Sure in the form of genocide but isnt that the foundation of America taking over the Indians?

Huh? Isnt genocide and oppression the same way the Christians took over America?

Not much has changed. Iraq = the new christian America.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4804955 - 10/14/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

It's fucked up that they kill Iraqi citizens.









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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4804968 - 10/14/05 08:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Who is "They"?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4805001 - 10/14/05 08:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
It's fucked up that they kill Iraqi citizens.





As opposed to American troops?


SMASH THE SYSTEM!


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4805235 - 10/14/05 09:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Who is "They"?




The insurgents.



Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Learyfan said:
It's fucked up that they kill Iraqi citizens.





As opposed to American troops?


SMASH THE SYSTEM!




Sorry dude, but we're the bad guys in this war. I'm a human before I'm an American.








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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4805268 - 10/14/05 10:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Learyfan writes:

Quote:

Sorry dude, but we're the bad guys in this war.




Why do you say that?





Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4805291 - 10/14/05 10:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As if we haven't discussed it a million times. We're not going to come to an agreement on it.








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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4805491 - 10/14/05 10:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Live in the now dude! What is going on in the moment man...

American troops are rebuilding infastructure.

American troops are killing insurgents who kill innocent women/children and iraqi police. (Those damn iraqi police risking their lives for a budding democracy, what oppressers!)

American troops who are providing security as the democratic process is continuing.

American troops who are sheding their blood so Iraq can become a stable and free society, devoid of dictators and terrorists.

Those BAD-guys. Fuck them, man.... They just don't get world peace on like a .... totally peaceful dimension.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4805550 - 10/14/05 10:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

We've already killed over 10,000 of their people and turned their country into an even bigger shit hole. We didn't even do it for noble reasons. How would you feel if you were those people? Would you fight us?








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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Cherk]
    #4805576 - 10/14/05 10:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Smoker For Peace said:
Al Qaeda is now establishing their new headquarters there




Source?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4805620 - 10/14/05 11:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
We've already killed over 10,000 of their people and turned their country into an even bigger shit hole. We didn't even do it for noble reasons. How would you feel if you were those people? Would you fight us?




Come on dude...

Live In The Moment (TM)

What part of my above post makes the U.S troops the badguys? That is what we are talking about, right? The U.S troops vs insurgents. Not Bush hating, right? So, why are the U.S troops the bad guys and "I can't believe they are killing civilians!!!" terrorists the good guys?


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: daimyo]
    #4805628 - 10/14/05 11:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

Smoker For Peace said:
Al Qaeda is now establishing their new headquarters there




Source?




If there is in fact a source for that, I think its fabulous news. We've created a front to kill them on. Glorious!


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4805690 - 10/14/05 11:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Quote:

Learyfan said:
We've already killed over 10,000 of their people and turned their country into an even bigger shit hole. We didn't even do it for noble reasons. How would you feel if you were those people? Would you fight us?




Come on dude...

Live In The Moment (TM)

What part of my above post makes the U.S troops the badguys? That is what we are talking about, right? The U.S troops vs insurgents. Not Bush hating, right? So, why are the U.S troops the bad guys and "I can't believe they are killing civilians!!!" terrorists the good guys?




The troops unfortunately represent us and we did a bad, bad thing. I was saying that it's understandable that the insurgents would want to kill US troops. The insurgents who kill Iraqi civilians are doing a bad, bad thing.








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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4805727 - 10/14/05 11:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
The troops unfortunately represent us and we did a bad, bad thing.




Incapable or unwilling? What the troops are doing NOW is what this thread is about. What the insurgents are doing NOW is what we are talking about. Highlighted in my above post are the things U.S troops are currently doing in Iraq, how is it anything other than honorable and selfless?

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I was saying that it's understandable that the insurgents would want to kill US troops. The insurgents who kill Iraqi civilians are doing a bad, bad thing.




Killing is understandable? Gosh LearyFan, all the peace-this and peace-that we've heard over the years don't mean a lick when someone... somewhere... is slaughtering, American troops! My classy meter is going through the roof!


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4806477 - 10/15/05 03:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The problem is there is not 'an insurgency' that exists and a single organized group. There are many factions. To apply logic to the question of what do you think of 'the insurgency' would like be saying, "how do you feel about criminals? they murder and rape they should all be killed."

You have Baathist insurgents, made up of Saddam loyalists and most likely supported by Syria.

Iranian sympathetic Shias, also probably receiving support from Iran. Both Syria and Iran has a great interest in causing as much trouble as possible in Iraq, keeping American/British forces bogged down, and maybe in future fermenting a split that would put resource rich areas of Iraq under sympathatic control.

You have criminals, kidnapping people for ransom, their motive is profit, they are not really insurgents at all, just criminals taking advantage of a lawless state.

Nationalists, many made up of the old army and police force, that was simply disbanded with little thought to how several hundred thousand nationalistic men with military training would react the a foreign power marching into their country and putting them all out of work.

Islamist fundamentalists, the mosts unreasonable of the bunch, impossible to negotiate with, and therefore the best for propaganda purposes to represent as the whole insurgency. These people I have nothing but contempt for.

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4806491 - 10/15/05 03:51 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe a little respect for the resolve of the nationalists, but nothing for anybody else.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4806564 - 10/15/05 06:25 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
Incapable or unwilling? What the troops are doing NOW is what this thread is about. What the insurgents are doing NOW is what we are talking about. Highlighted in my above post are the things U.S troops are currently doing in Iraq, how is it anything other than honorable and selfless?




That's like saying "Don't concentrate on what Bin Laden did before. Concentrate on what Bin Laden is doing NOW."



Quote:


Killing is understandable? Gosh LearyFan, all the peace-this and peace-that we've heard over the years don't mean a lick when someone... somewhere... is slaughtering, American troops! My classy meter is going through the roof!




I wish there could be peace in Iraq this very second. However, there can't be and there won't be because of what we've done.








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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4806588 - 10/15/05 06:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

We've already killed over 10,000 of their people...




Coalition troops have killed over 10,000 Iraqi civilians? Nope. Not even close. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the death toll from attacks by dead-enders and jihadis was in that range by now, though.

Quote:

... and turned their country into an even bigger shit hole.




Hmmm. Let's see:

Hundreds more hospitals, schools, satellite dishes, newspapers, political parties. No more rape rooms and disappeared relatives. Repaired water treatment plants and electrical distribution. Higher employment at beter wages. Elected government. New constitution.

Not bigger shithole, smaller shithole.

Quote:

We didn't even do it for noble reasons.




Ah. The standard Libbie "no act can possibly be a good act unless it was undertaken for the right reasons" (i.e. Libbie-approved reasons) non-argument. This they feel trumps all and is pulled out every time they cannot win an argument logically.

"Well sure, the Iraqis and the Middle East and the entire world are better off with Iraq a constitutional democracy, Hussein on trial, and his heirs dead, but I still say it's you guys who are the bad guys for bringing this all about cuz you did it out of your own self interest."




Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4806706 - 10/15/05 08:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hundreds more hospitals




They're going need them. We've turned the country into a war zone.

Quote:

satellite dishes




Haha, they all have cable now huh? Where do you get this stuff from?

Quote:

No more rape rooms and disappeared relatives




Right. We've replaced rape rooms with torture rooms. Missing relatives? We've made a LOT more relatives disappear.

Quote:

Ah. The standard Libbie "no act can possibly be a good act unless it was undertaken for the right reasons" (i.e. Libbie-approved reasons) non-argument. This they feel trumps all and is pulled out every time they cannot win an argument logically.

"Well sure, the Iraqis and the Middle East and the entire world are better off with Iraq a constitutional democracy, Hussein on trial, and his heirs dead, but I still say it's you guys who are the bad guys for bringing this all about cuz you did it out of your own self interest."





Things are not better for Iraqis than they were before, but even if they are, are you saying that the ends justify the means?







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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4806731 - 10/15/05 09:09 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

looner2 said:
Incapable or unwilling? What the troops are doing NOW is what this thread is about. What the insurgents are doing NOW is what we are talking about. Highlighted in my above post are the things U.S troops are currently doing in Iraq, how is it anything other than honorable and selfless?




That's like saying "Don't concentrate on what Bin Laden did before. Concentrate on what Bin Laden is doing NOW."





No, Learyfan it is not like that at all. You are unwilling to answer the question because it might give some credence to the American troops. Your analogy to Bin Laden makes no sense whatsoever

1.) The troops removed the murdering dictator Saddam.

Good or Bad?

2.) The troops are building infastructure, killing terrorists, and propagating democracy all the while risking their lives.

Good or Bad?

There is no way around this Learyfan. Whether you agree with Bush ordering the invasion or not is irrelevent. To say that what the troops have done and are continuing to do is anything less than admirable is unfounded and based on nothing more than bitterness.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4806781 - 10/15/05 09:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Learyfan writes:

Quote:

We've turned the country into a war zone.




Incorrect. You are thinking of the jihadis and the dead enders.

Quote:

Haha, they all have cable now huh? Where do you get this stuff from?




No, they don't all have cable. But there are now thousands and thousands of satellite dishes on the rooftops of Baghdad. They can now get information from sources other than the single state run newspaper and the single state run television channel of the Ba'athist years. There are also dozens of Iraqi bloggers now as opposed to none at all prior to March of 2003.

Quote:

We've replaced rape rooms with torture rooms.




Oh please. Spit out the Galloway/Moore/Zinn koolaid before it's too late. There are no torture rooms run by the coalition forces, though there were plenty run by the Ba'athists.

Quote:

Things are not better for Iraqis than they were before...




This is nothing other than sheer denial of reality. Let me guess... you've never read any of the Iraqi blogs, have you. You've never read any of Arthur Chrenkoff's several dozen reports from Iraq. Or anything by Michael Yon. Nope, a strict diet of MSM selective "coverage" washed down with the occasional cup of Galloway/Moore/Zinn koolaid is just fine by you.

Quote:

...but even if they are, are you saying that the ends justify the means?




As I will repeat for probably the two hundredth time in this forum, I remain unconvinced it was best for Poland, Italy, Spain, Australia, the UK, the US et al to have resumed hostilities in Iraq at the time they did. The non-interventionist in me says it wasn't their problem. They could have left the Iraqis to their fate, as the rest of the world chose to do. Just another bunch of brown people, after all: no more deserving of outside assistance than were the Kosovars or Bosnians or Somalis or Rwandans or Sudanese.

Your assertion was that "we" are the bad guys, not the "insurgents". I responded to that assertion.

As for "do the ends justify the means," that question can be asked of any war. You are of course aware that twenty thousand or so French civilians were killed in the D-Day invasion which resulted in the liberation of Europe. That's just one country in one campaign of World War II. How many more civilians do you think were killed by the Allies before Germany gave up? Did the ends justify the means?

How many died in the Bosnian aerial bombing? Did the ends justify the means?

It's abundantly clear you would prefer to see Hussein still in power in Iraq. What's your opinion on the many other totalitarian regimes around the world? Leave them in place? It's up to the oppressed to free themselves on their own? You believe it was better for 800,000 or so Tutsis to have been slaughtered in Rwanda than have any outside country come to their assistance? I am not being facetious or argumentative here -- I agree there are perfectly good arguments to be made for that position. As I said earlier, it's not our fault those people got killed. Not our problem. We have no business interfering in the internal affairs of another country. Sucks to be them, but that's what they get for being born in a totalitarian country. Sucks to be born blind and crippled in the slums of Capetown too, but that's not our fault either.

Your stance on this matter reminds me of the stance of some hardline anarcho-libertarians -- Murray Rothbard for one. Rothbard's stance is that the instant a single innocent is killed by the good guys, the good guys become as morally culpable as the bad guys. You ever read any of his work?




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4807011 - 10/15/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I have no respect to someone who targets civilians for killing. Also, there is no comparison between the American Revolution fighters and the insurgents.

Why not?

-The Revolutionary soldiers did not terrorize and kill civilians on a daily basis.
-The Revolutionary soldiers wanted freedom and autonomy, not a return to a brutal dictatorship or a theocracy
-The Revolutionary soldiers fought for the good of their colonists, not just a small portion of them.

Also, anyone who thinks life under Saddam was better is insane. I bet a Kurd would tell you life is better now.

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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4807076 - 10/15/05 11:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Did someone really compare the insurgents with The Revolutionaries of Colonial America? What absurd and completely ignorant sentiment! I know this is a forum designed to inspire thought and conversation, but if you can't carry your weight you should ask for help. The insurgents are more reminiscent of the brutal and unhappy regime which tried to oust the wroking class in Rwanda through xenocide and machettes.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4807179 - 10/15/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Also, anyone who thinks life under Saddam was better is insane. I bet a Kurd would tell you life is better now.



Better for whom? Women's rights under Saddam's regime were much better than pretty much anywhere else in the Middle East. While it probably won't turn into another Afghanistan, it is likely that women will have it worse off under the new regime.


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4807251 - 10/15/05 12:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Man what the hell are you talking about? Just because it ws better than "mostly anywhere else" doesn't mean it was optimum or good!!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #4807259 - 10/15/05 12:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:
Man what the hell are you talking about? Just because it ws better than "mostly anywhere else" doesn't mean it was optimum or good!!



I never said it was. But with the Shi'ites gaining more political control, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that things are going to get worse for women.


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4807287 - 10/15/05 12:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I dunno if it will end up being that bad for women.

There are many, many things in the Iraqi Constitution directed entirely towards women and their rights.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4807293 - 10/15/05 12:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not saying it will get really bad. I'm just saying it will likely be a step back for them.


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4807296 - 10/15/05 12:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm going to have to disagree. Of course, both of us are purely speculating, so I suppose time will tell.

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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4807671 - 10/15/05 02:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Paradigm writes:

Quote:

Women's rights under Saddam's regime were much better than pretty much anywhere else in the Middle East.




Really? How many women were in Iraq's parliament in the Ba'athist days? The new constitution specifies that at least 30% of the members of parliament be women.

I laugh hysterically when people try to claim women's "rights" were good in Iraq under Hussein. Tell that to the families of the women raped and murdered --sometimes before the very eyes of their husbands and children -- by the thugs who held that country hostage for thirty years. I suggest you tell them by e-mail rather than face to face.

Quote:

While it probably won't turn into another Afghanistan, it is likely that women will have it worse off under the new regime.




Really? You figure women will once again be snatched off the streets and out of their homes and delivered to the rape rooms once the constitution has been ratified? Whatever, dude.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4807674 - 10/15/05 02:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Paradigm writes:

Quote:

I'm just saying it will likely be a step back for them.




I presume by now you've read the constitution. What sections of it do you believe allow for this regression?




Phred


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4807705 - 10/15/05 02:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Alright people your concepts on war are fairly simple, Targetting civilians in war is a effective tool in war. It has been done for thousands of years and is no new concept. Such as the US's systematic bombing of tens of thousands of german civilians in Dresden or the firebombing of Tokyo and Yokohoma.

The problem with Iraq is their multiple insurgencies and agendas at play we have the kurds up north with the PKK and peshmerga who just want an autonomous kurdistan, and shias down south who want the rich oil fields in Basra. The sunnies end up getting stuck with central iraq which is most of where the populace and poverty is at.

Al Qaeda is pretty much the brains of the serious operations in Iraq and most other terrorist groups are a odd mix of Fedayeen militia, homegrown sunni insurgents, foreign fighters and ex mujahadeen from afghanistan and hotspots from all over the war including morroco and chechnya.

Its fairly evident that Iraq is treading hot water trying to keep these political groups and agendas at peace with eachother. Even factions within the Shia's like the badr brigade and the mahdi militia. Iraq is more destabilized than anytime before and will only get worse especially when you have people such as Talabani who were in Iran during the Iraq-Iran conflict. Expect cozy relations with Iran.

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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #4807736 - 10/15/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The insurgents aren't fighting for "liberty", they are fighting against it.


They should be pouring over the borders of Gaza and destroying the people who orchestrated the Iraq war and faked the evidence.


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4808459 - 10/15/05 06:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If my country was invaded by a foreign army that didn't speak my language, didn't know a thing about my culture or religion, killed my family and friends in air raids - shit, I too would be planting roadside bombs to knock out a few of those soldiers while screaming victory for my country. That's how political autonomy works. When a foreigner invades your land, you use force against the alien presence until they leave. ANYONE would fuckin' do the same. If America was third world and some rich Arab empire marched in there "for their own good" Americans too would be making homemade bombs and putting their lives on the line to defend their country. It's no different for Iraq or any other country that has experienced an invasion and occupation by a completely different country and culture. I don't know why America thought this didn't apply to them. Maybe they'll get the message with another 5 years of bombs and shots to the head, A progress report on Iraq should be interesting once the insurgency reaches the 8th and 9th year, on average when insurgencies finally drive out foreign occupation.


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4808493 - 10/15/05 06:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The problem with that is many insurgents are not Iraqi's.

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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4808577 - 10/15/05 06:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, that's normally how insurgencies in Muslim countries work. In the 1980's thousands of young men from all over the Arab world travelled to Afghanistan to help the Afghans drive the Soviets out. In the 90's thousands flocked to the Balkans to fight the Serbs. And many have travelled to Chechnya to fight Russian occupation. That's what I like about Muslims - they got the John Lennon mentality. No borders. Just brothers and sisters helping each other out.


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4808610 - 10/15/05 07:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

But the thing is, in real life, there are borders. Not only that, but they are not fighting for freedom; they are fighting (at least the Sunnis) b/c they want to be in power again.

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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4808623 - 10/15/05 07:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

How do you know?


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Unagipie]
    #4808669 - 10/15/05 07:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You got me there. Deduction, I suppose.

Still, I am not going to support anyone who targets civilians. I understand why they are doing what they do, but I don't agree with it.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4808695 - 10/15/05 07:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Still, I am not going to support anyone who targets civilians. I understand why they are doing what they do, but I don't agree with it.




You understand why they are doing what they are doing? I don't, and I doubt they do besides a blind hatred for America and a call to jihad. Why is this?

They oppose progress for their country. By fighting us, they fight progress. By killing their own people, they show desperation and a complete disregard for any "higher purpose" besides wanting to finally get laid in heaven.

Even if they don't see the American occupation as something positive in the long-run and they truly believe they are fighting for a just cause that will help their country.......they're wrong. They're wrong to the point of potentially causing deaths of millions, and because of that they should be eliminated with the same tenacity as they sex-depraved islamo-facists.


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Redstorm]
    #4808702 - 10/15/05 07:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I see your point, and few people are happy about those who are trying to instigate a civil war - which is mostly Al Qaeda in Iraq which is doing that. Few Iraqi-born insurgents are that happy with Abu Musab's group for targetting other Muslims. In fact, I think in 2004 a bunch of Iraqi insurgents released a video calling for the head of al-Zarqawi for "disgracing Islam". Heck, even Al Qaeda's leadership isn't terribly enthusiastic about Zarqawi's efforts in Iraq. I imagine the thousands upon thousands of insurgent gunmen in Iraq wouldn't care either way if Zarqawi was killed or captured.


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4808711 - 10/15/05 07:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

See, you understand part of it as well. They hate American, which is part of the problem.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4808785 - 10/15/05 07:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't care how you justify it, Phred. We've done 9/11 five times over in Iraq. The damage we've done may have been more justified had we attacked the most evil nation in the world and gone from there. We didn't. We're murderers and idiots.








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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4808791 - 10/15/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think you're speaking for yourself in the last sentence. Don't include all of us in your self-condemnation.

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4808815 - 10/15/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I don't care how you justify it, Phred. We've done 9/11 five times over in Iraq. The damage we've done may have been more justified had we attacked the most evil nation in the world and gone from there. We didn't. We're murderers and idiots.





You haven't addressed one point by either me or Phred, and even said, "i don't care how you justify it".... we understand. Your hiter=bush pictures speak volumes.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4808844 - 10/15/05 08:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I don't care how you justify it, Phred.




Yes, it's abundantly clear by now that you prefer the fact-free life. We get it.

Quote:

The damage we've done may have been more justified had we attacked the most evil nation in the world and gone from there.




Knowing your opinion of the Bush administration, that would mean attacking Washington first, I take it.

So you question the timing. It is okay to resume hostilities in Iraq if the most evil nation in the world has been dealt with first. Obviously you don't consider the Taliban in Afghanistan to have been the most evil, even though they were so universally condemned that just three countries in the entire world recognized Afghanistan. And one of those -- Pakistan -- had to be cajoled into doing so in order that there could be some line of communication with the Taliban by the US. This (recognition by just three of the world's countries) was an all time low for a UN member nation by a long shot. The Taliban was so blatant an example of a rogue "government" that the UN approved the invasion -- only the fourth UN-approved war in its history. But not evil enough for you, I guess.

So which nation was the most evil, in your opinion?





Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: looner2]
    #4808847 - 10/15/05 08:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Because what I said makes the rest of it null and void. Because of our actions 10,000 Iraqi's are dead, almost 2,000 Americans are dead, billions and billions are wasted all to remove someone who wasn't as evil as some of the allies we have to this day.






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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4808862 - 10/15/05 08:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Who's more evil than Saddam?

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4808917 - 10/15/05 08:43 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
So you question the timing. It is okay to resume hostilities in Iraq if the most evil nation in the world has been dealt with first. Obviously you don't consider the Taliban in Afghanistan to have been the most evil, even though they were so universally condemned that just three countries in the entire world recognized Afghanistan. And one of those -- Pakistan -- had to be cajoled into doing so in order that there could be some line of communication with the Taliban by the US. This (recognition by just three of the world's countries) was an all time low for a UN member nation by a long shot. The Taliban was so blatant an example of a rogue "government" that the UN approved the invasion -- only the fourth UN-approved war in its history. But not evil enough for you, I guess.

So which nation was the most evil, in your opinion?





Phred




Afghanistan was bad. That war was much more understandable. By "first" I meant the first country not involved in 9/11. Countries such as Uzbekistan, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia would have been much more understandable. We wasted lives and valuable assets in Iraq and should be ashamed.







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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4809063 - 10/15/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Now we're getting somewhere.

If I'm understanding you correctly here, there's no way you would approve of resuming hostilities in Iraq without first invading say North Korea. Until war had been declared on North Korea, Hussein should have been left in control of Iraq. If war is never declared on NK, Hussein gets a free pass forever.

So as I said, a timing issue. It's not that hostilities were resumed in Iraq that leads you to declare we're the bad guys, it's that North Korea wasn't invaded first. All we had to do in order to go from being the bad guys in Iraq to being the good guys in Iraq was to attack NK first. Gotcha.

I leave it to the other readers of this thread to make their own judgement on the moral "logic" of that position.




Phred


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4809330 - 10/15/05 10:32 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not in favor of any war, really.  I think it should be avoided at all cost.  I'm not saying we should invade North Korea or any nation.  It would just make a lot more sense than invading Iraq.  :confused:







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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4809334 - 10/15/05 10:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

It is not the job of the U.S. government to search the world for monsters to destroy. What does it gain us to overthrow Saddam, throw the Iraq into turmoil, increase international ill will towards our country and our citizens, burden our nation with debt piled upon debt and curtail or liberties? It is an exercise in hubris to think that we can remake other countries of the world into model democracies when our own country spirals away from liberty into a debt ridden corporatist warfare/welfare/police state.


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4809749 - 10/16/05 01:06 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm with you

:hug:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Learyfan]
    #4810360 - 10/16/05 09:50 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
We're murderers and idiots.






You speak only for yourself


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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4810572 - 10/16/05 11:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Prosgeopax writes:

Quote:

It is not the job of the U.S. government to search the world for monsters to destroy.





For probably the two hundredth and first time in this forum, I repeat that I remain unconvinced it was best for Poland, Italy, Spain, Australia, the UK, the US et al to have resumed hostilities in Iraq at the time they did. The non-interventionist in me says it wasn't their problem. They could have left the Iraqis to their fate, as the rest of the world chose to do. Just another bunch of brown people, after all: no more deserving of outside assistance than were the Bosnians or Kosovars or Rwandans or Somalis or Sudanese. Those people have no claim on the resources of others.

In the specific case of Saddam Hussein, however, there are many who argue he was America's monster -- that he was a creation of the CIA aided and abetted in his adventurism against Iran at the least. If it was America who unleashed Hussein on his own countrymen and his neighbors, is it not America's responsibility to clean up their mess? To neutralize their monster?

Clearly, when deciding between two admittedly imperfect alternatives you would prefer to see Hussein still in power in Iraq. What's your opinion on the many other totalitarian regimes around the world? Should they be left in place? Is it up to the oppressed to free themselves entirely on their own? Do you believe it was better for 800,000 or so Rwandan Tutsis to have been slaughtered than to have any outside country come to their assistance? I am not being facetious here -- I agree there are perfectly good arguments to be made for that position. As I said earlier, it's not our fault those people got killed. Not our problem. We have no obligation to interfere in the internal affairs of another country. It sucks to be them, but that's what they get for allowing totalitarians to seize their country. It sucks to be born blind and crippled in the slums of Rio de Janeiro too, but that's not our fault either.

It appears that unlike Learyfan, you are not categorizing the actions of the coalition as "bad" in the ethical sense, merely as non-obligatory -- a position I agree with, by the way. The coalition countries most certainly had no obligation to assist the enslaved.

Quote:

It is an exercise in hubris to think that we can remake other countries of the world into model democracies when our own country spirals away from liberty into a debt ridden corporatist warfare/welfare/police state.




For an exercise in hubris, it is doing pretty well. Iraq now has a constitutionally limited government whose parliament was democratically elected. Their constitution (while imperfect) is head and shoulders above that of any other Arab state. Their challenge now is to hew more closely to that constitution than the US has to theirs. Perhaps the Iraqis will surprise us all and learn from the US's mistakes.



Phred


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4810618 - 10/16/05 11:23 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Their challenge now is to hew more closely to that constitution than the US has to theirs.

Do as I say not as I do? Never happens. They will soon learn to circumvent this new document with ease as Americans politicians have, thereby rendering it basically meaningless.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Swami]
    #4810646 - 10/16/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

They will soon learn to circumvent this new document with ease as Americans politicians have, thereby rendering it basically meaningless.




That is of course a possibility.

Is your position that a written constitution was therefore not required for the Iraqi government? Or for any government, for that matter?





Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4810666 - 10/16/05 11:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Please tell me Phred, how will words on a piece of paper guarantee compliance of those who grasp for power in Iraq? How will words on a piece of paper reverse the process of society moving back towards tribalism (which was initiated by the U.S.)? How will these words reduce the great amount of hate and fanaticism engendered by U.S. actions in the region? How will these words rebuild the infrastructure and restore people's livelihoods? Without the cultural history, the will of those making up the government and the will of those they rule, a constitution is meaningless as a instrument for preserving liberty or ensuring justice in a society. It does not work in the U.S. and we have (or rather, had) the cultural history to support it. Even then, it was put on life support at the start of the war between the states.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4810700 - 10/16/05 11:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Although this is from the first elections back in february.. it is fitting now...



--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4810715 - 10/16/05 12:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

All treaties and accords, whether between nations or between a people and it's government, are broken when it in the self-interest for those in power to do so.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Swami]
    #4810733 - 10/16/05 12:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So it would be better just to have no limits on the government in form of text, then?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4810788 - 10/16/05 12:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Please tell me Phred, how will words on a piece of paper guarantee compliance of those who grasp for power in Iraq? How will words on a piece of paper reverse the process of society moving back towards tribalism (which was initiated by the U.S.)? How will these words reduce the great amount of hate and fanaticism engendered by U.S. actions in the region? How will these words rebuild the infrastructure and restore people's livelihoods? Without the cultural history, the will of those making up the government and the will of those they rule, a constitution is meaningless as a instrument for preserving liberty or ensuring justice in a society. It does not work in the U.S. and we have (or rather, had) the cultural history to support it. Even then, it was put on life support at the start of the war between the states.




Is your position that a written constitution was therefore not desireable for the Iraqi government? Or for any government, for that matter?

Look, the hackneyed argument that those in power are free to ignore the agreed-upon limits to that power is of course applicable to any form of government with the exception of true anarchy. Even Jefferson recognized that, fa cryin' out loud.

I've seen more than a few of your posts excoriating the US government for ignoring its consitutional limits, but I have yet to see a post from you suggesting the Constitution be abandoned entirely. The point is that with a written constitution the populace has a standard against which to hold their government. If the government fails to obey, they get voted out of office. If they refuse to vacate that office, they may end up being forceably removed from office. Recent events in Iraq show the Iraqis to be made of sterner stuff than the average American voter. Perhaps their reaction to their government violating their constitution would be violent overthrow.




Phred


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Phred]
    #4811244 - 10/16/05 02:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So would you say that the chances of a stable Iraq in the next year are better or worse than finding imaginary WMDs?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4811423 - 10/16/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, thats relevant.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: anyone else have respect for the insurgents in iraq? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4819039 - 10/18/05 12:07 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So would you say that the chances of a stable Iraq in the next year are better or worse than finding imaginary WMDs?

About the same.

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