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 HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
 
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
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 Right to Privacy and others not enumerated 
#4795317 - 10/12/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Every time I hear supposedly conservative speakers voice their opinion about the Right to Privacy not existing because it isn't in the Constitution my blood boils. Those who listen to favorite pundit spew this shit then go and parrot it when debating, usually in an attempt to declare why Roe vs Wade was such a bad decision.
Using the right to privacy as reasoning was a bad decision though. Not because it doesn't exist, but by using that language and the subsequent pro-life movement, those who wish to have it repealed on that fact undermine the liberties the right to privacy should protect. A person's prerogative to do with their bodies as they choose to is reason enough that abortion should be legal.
How can these supposed originalist, strict constructionist or whatever language they choose to use to describe their method of constitutional interpretation believe this shit?!?
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
What about that is so fucking hard for these morons to understand? Does the Constitution grant the Govt the power to dictate what a person does to their own body?
The Constitution is as great for what it doesn't say as for what it does but it gets depressing to realize how far we've allowed it to be gagged.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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 Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4795427 - 10/12/05 09:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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 Le_Canard
The Duk Abides
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4795561 - 10/12/05 09:41 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would think the Fourth Amendment would make privacy rights pretty clear cut, but apparently there are those who don't think so. And you can blame both conservatives and liberals for that. 
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Le_Canard]
#4795620 - 10/12/05 09:50 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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One would think.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4796443 - 10/13/05 12:48 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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The preamble to the bill of rights is one of my favorite parts of the constitution. Can you believe that it was left out of all of my college and high school textbooks?
Quote:
Effective December 15, 1791
Articles in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.
PREAMBLE
The conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4797469 - 10/13/05 09:21 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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>> Does the Constitution grant the Govt the power to dictate what a person does to their own body?
the answer may surprise you ..
Quote:
Article I Section 8. The Congress shall have power
...
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
and thats where the constitution grants the govt that power...the SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that the earlier commerce clause renders the bill of rights null and void...as such..constitutional protections only apply when they dont involve some commodity which can be carried across a state line...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Annapurna1]
#4797529 - 10/13/05 09:35 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Unfortunately for your argument, it has also been used to protect liberty (see: racial discmination in public amenities).
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Annapurna1]
#4797543 - 10/13/05 09:38 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I looked up 'gross misinterpretation' in the dictionary
and they cite that as an example...
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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: afoaf]
#4797554 - 10/13/05 09:41 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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pls post a link to that dictionary...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Annapurna1]
#4797573 - 10/13/05 09:44 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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2 entries found for sarcasm.
sar?casm Audio pronunciation of "sarcasm" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s?rkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm
7 entries found for humor.
hu?mor Audio pronunciation of "humor" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hymr)
n.
1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd. See Synonyms at wit1.
4. One of the four fluids of the body, blood, phlegm, choler, and black bile, whose relative proportions were thought in ancient and medieval physiology to determine a person's disposition and general health.
5. Physiology.
1. A body fluid, such as blood, lymph, or bile.
2. Aqueous humor.
3. Vitreous humor.
6. A person's characteristic disposition or temperament: a boy of sullen humor.
7. An often temporary state of mind; a mood: I'm in no humor to argue.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humor
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: afoaf]
#4797641 - 10/13/05 09:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said:
I looked up 'gross misinterpretation' in the dictionary
and they cite that as an example...
whether thats true or not..the SCOTUS doesnt seem to think so...i can cite as examples swift vs US (1905).. sprague vs US (1931).. and wickard vs filburn (1942)...just to name a few...it would appear that the SCOTUS doesnt appreciate your sarcasm...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Annapurna1]
#4797716 - 10/13/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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clearly not
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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Annapurna1]
#4797765 - 10/13/05 10:33 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would like to see any quote from an opinion that the Commerce Clause "rules that the Bill of Rights in null and void".
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Redstorm]
#4797888 - 10/13/05 11:00 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
I would like to see any quote from an opinion that the Commerce Clause "rules that the Bill of Rights in null and void".
there is no single case that renders the bill of rights null-and-void (in the face of the commerce clause or otherwise) as such...however..the sprague case expressly rules amendment X null-and-void as follows ..
Quote:
The Tenth Amendment was intended to confirm the understanding of the people at the time the Constitution was adopted, that powers not granted to the United States were reserved to the states or to the people. It added nothing to the instrument as originally ratified and has no limited and special operation, as is contended, upon the people's delegation by article 5 of certain functions to the Congress.
other decisions along the same lines might not have been so explicit..but the aggregate effect has been to firmly establish the primacy of the commerce clause (along with the coinage clause) over other constitutional protections...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: Annapurna1]
#4798465 - 10/13/05 12:43 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Though I have great respect for your wistful desire that there be a right to privacy in the Constitution and could argue from the "safe in his person and possessions clause", the two amendments you cite were not in fact the basis for the decision at all.
http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Roe/
"3. State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term. Pp. 147-164."
The decision was based on the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Why Blackmun had to go there for his justification has to do with the fact that there is 200 years of precedent which also have to be respected. Further, one could rather forcefully argue that this particular clause actually lays out the means by which the government can deprive one of life, liberty and property, not, as is often argued, precluding it
From Blackmun in RvW
"VIII
The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 564 (1969); in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 8-9 (1968), Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 350 (1967), Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616 (1886), see Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438, 478 (1928) (Brandeis, J., dissenting); in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights, Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S., at 484-485; in the Ninth Amendment, id., at 486 (Goldberg, J., concurring); or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, see Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 (1923). These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937), are included in this guarantee of personal privacy. They also make it clear that the right has some extension to activities relating to marriage, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967); procreation, Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541-542 (1942); contraception, Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S., at 453-454; id., at 460, 463-465 (WHITE, J., concurring in result); family relationships, Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158, 166 (1944); and child rearing and education, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, 535 (1925), Meyer v. Nebraska, supra."
Thus, Blackmun himself points out that the decision is more a product of the evolution of Constitutional decisions than it is inherent in the original beast itself.
I personally have always felt that RvW was a brilliant piece of legislation. I would also like to see a right to privacy amendment. I do not want to see 9 elites making law against the wishes of the electorate. We got Kelo that way.
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Posts: 10,028
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: zappaisgod]
#4799478 - 10/13/05 04:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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If that was directed toward me instead of Annapurna1 I just want to clarify I wasn't trying to say that 9 and 10 were the basis for the reasoning of right to privacy. After hearing several talk show hosts yesterday all say that there is no such thing as the right to privacy because it wasn't explicity stated I just wanted to bitch that because it or any other rights we possess weren't spelled out for them doesn't prohibit their existence.
I don't think such justification should be needed for abortion to be legal. In retrospect though I guess there probably wasn't another way to effectively legalize it though. I just hate to see the RtP as the basis for the campaign against abortion because of everything else it entails. It seems to make any battle to reclaim our other liberties lost that much more formidable.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4799523 - 10/13/05 04:29 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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It was for you, my mistake. We don't disagree on what we want, just on how we should get it. I do not trust a priest class and the SCOTUS is rapidly getting there.
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 12 days, 7 hours
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Re: Right to Privacy and others not enumerated [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4803845 - 10/14/05 03:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said:
A person's prerogative to do with their bodies as they choose to is reason enough that abortion should be legal.
Which brings us back to the question----when does life begin? Inside the womb or at birth? I would rather the medical community attempt to try to answer that instead of a group of lawyers.
But we have never had the right to do with or own bodies as wish, nor was it ever intended to be so. There should not be any laws restricting human activity provided that, that activity does no harm to another or their property. If we had the freedom to do what we wanted to do with our bodies without no concern on what harm it would cause others then what would stop a person from putting on a belt full of bombs and blowing themselves up in the middle of a crowded theatre?
I don't know. When does life begin?
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