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Offlineswiftrance
Let there be light

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 449
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help
    #4800370 - 10/13/05 07:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hey guys, id like to share whats been goin on with me lately. i consider myself an intellectual person. i always believed that having a dependence on anything was a huge sign of weakness, be it cigs, alcohol or antidepressants. but now i just dont know. im so tired of suffering.

Since i can remember (around 6th grade), every so often id fall into these depressive episodes for weeks or even a few months. everything in the world seemed so fruitless and pointless. like living took so much effort just to exist why even bother. i had a suicidal episode around that time but have never gotten that close to killing myself since. im not a lazy person, actually around this time i joined track/xc and became a very successful runner. running actually helped pull me out of alot of hard times id have. its strange but i think my ups and downs have alot to do with how my life would change every season getting back to the huge commitment that sport was.

every year, i could almost predict the month, id get so down and negative... god it sucked. but i'd beat it somehow or another through lots of meditation, talking about it with friends etc. this turned me into a very solid, chilled, introverted person.

well now im in my 3rd year in college and this just sucks. i quit my sport because instead of relieving stress like it used to it now made me more miserable. i truly have no interest in social interactions. my grades are slipping. lately ive been having trouble sleeping. This all started right before i got to college, during that summer. and has yet to go away.

i attributed my depression then to alot of things: broke up with 3year gf, losing my friends goin to college, sudden drop in drug use. these were all supposed to be temporary though. ive tried lots of things since then, increased meditation, supplements, hobbies, i even started smoking cigs to help deal with the stress but i dont want to do that anymore. im screwing up my life!

i feel like i cant handle this by myself anymore. lately ive been doing alot of research about depression and anxiety and want to see a doc soon to see what kind of help i can get. i absolutely loath psychiatrists and refuse to see one. i dont have a very addictive personality so im not That worried about becoming dependant on meds. i'd like to give em a try but theres just so much out there i dont know what to do. thanks alot if you read this far. this is my cry for help and much needed venting. i sure could use some knowledge about this stuff before i go see a doctor so i know i wont get screwed somehow.
im depressed... i need a temporary fix to get through this time in my life. help
-hunter


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Invisiblepeepeepottypants
Stranger
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Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 1,040
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4800459 - 10/13/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Goodness, SO MUCH of that I can relate to, dare I say it is nearly uncanny to my factors with my depression recently and even the time and age I felt it begin.

LAtely I've been feeling the complete despair subside, so I feel I cant talk to you from a slightly more hopeful place.

1- remember you are NOT alone. Depression is such a highly isolating feeling.

2- Remember that although it may not get better to the point of satisfaction, it always subsides like a wave.

I would recommend comedy. I've found that others comedy as well as comedy I have found in books has made me smile without realizing it at times, and once you catch yourself smiling it can really help the depression wave subsiding. Its almost like tricking yourself.

Also, you are NOT failing in life. Although I completly understand how you can feel that you are by your own standards...remember there are a lot more people digging deeper holes.

If you ever want to talk, I'm here to listen.

If you decide not to go on meds (which Im not in any position to tell you either way will work) remember that depression will subside, as hopeless and daunting as it is, the wave will recede.

I hope you begin to find solace within these dark days


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Invisiblecateyes
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Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: peepeepottypants]
    #4800605 - 10/13/05 08:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

hello swiftrance... all i can say to you is i understand your experience and i hope you can work your way through this... you seem cool

peace

cateyes


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InvisibleMOTH
Wild Woman
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Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4800846 - 10/13/05 09:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You've taken a powerful step in deciding to see a doctor.  Good luck tomorrow.  :heart:


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OfflineCLUTCH
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 879
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4801864 - 10/14/05 12:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

good luck bro.

You are doing the right things for yourself right now.

let us know how it goes.

CLUTCH


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: CLUTCH]
    #4802032 - 10/14/05 01:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

smoking crack is a good remedy for depression.... atleast as good as any other drug out there, legal or illegal.

Im sure i will catch hell for this (cuz i always do!), and I first want to say good job on atleast becoming somewhat proactive towards controlling and "fixing" your life/emotional state.

1)YOU ARE ONLY HELPLESS IF YOU THINK YOU ARE!
2) once you (if you) can stop feeling sorry for yourself, and attempt to see beyond yourself, try helping others out, volunteer somewhere, do something proactive to help improve the environment around you.
3) obesity isnt a disease, it is a lack of willpower and discipline. So is "depression".
4) happiness isnt found in a pill, only instant gratification is.
5) drugs will only mask the problems, like throwing newspaper on dog piss.

depression stems completely from being self-absorbed, which is easy to do in this society. Read the first post and see if it doesnt reek of self-absorbed thought.

maybe I am putting it too harsh, but the last thing you need is people giving you empathy/sympathy and pity, most other forms of attention are much healthier for the mind anyway.
I mean this in all sincerity, and it is something i do truly care about, im not just being an asshole, as a fellow shroomerite, i care about your well-being and only offer this as an alternative viewpoint, because if you look at the others that posted in here, they too are constantly struggling with the exact same thing, and have been (it seems) for years, giving you advice about the drugs that they have been on for years while still being depressed to this day.

good luck, i hope you take this atleast into consideration.


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InvisiblePyjamas
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 48
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4802867 - 10/14/05 09:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Are you honestly saying that one shouldn't seek attention and take up smoking crack because it can help deal with depression, yet at the same time drugs can mask the problem?

Depression *IS* a disease and it's rampant. Just because it can't spread like the flu doesn't mean that it isn't a "disease" as you might think it. Try telling someone with a chemical imbalance that their depression is as a result of lack of will power and motivation. It's a result of depression, not the cause.

The best advice i can offer you swift is to try and develop simple routines and stick to them as best you can for as long as possible. Having a plan of action is a great way to get through the day when you are so used to waking up and not really thinking about what's coming next. Eat as healthily as possible. Try and get plenty of fresh air and exercise when you can. Go for short 10-15 minute walks listening to some good music.
Don't get me wrong, your depression isn't just gonna vanish like that but the simplest little things help from what I've seen.

Try this for a few weeks and if you feel better, maybe then would be a good time to talk to someone anonymously about what help you can get to reduce this problem in the future.

Take my word for it, don't start taking stuff like crack. Maybe lay off the drugs altogether. You're young, there'll be plenty of time for that stuff later on. The sheer fact that you mentioned crack psilocyberin makes my blood boil. You idiot! The last thing someone with depression needs is a severe addiction that will only make more problems and at the same time not solve any.

Self absorbed my fucking ass.


--------------------
. . . Lime and limpid green, the sound surrounds the icy waters underground . . .


Edited by Pyjamas (10/14/05 09:32 AM)


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Pyjamas]
    #4803156 - 10/14/05 11:40 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pyjamas said:
Are you honestly saying that one shouldn't seek attention and take up smoking crack because it can help deal with depression, yet at the same time drugs can mask the problem?






Er, yeah Psilocyberin. That's the worst advice ever....


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Offlineswiftrance
Let there be light

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 449
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Pyjamas]
    #4803175 - 10/14/05 11:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you all for your support! Its so hard to tell other people that 'D' word once youve decided to get help. i really appreciate all of your suggestions/advice.

Well, i just got back from seeing a physician. i started by calling my schools health services and was transfered around at least 5 times before i found an actual doctor who was willing to see me asap. I went in an had my vitals checked etc, then spoke with the doc about my prob and depression for a good 30 minutes. She was very understanding and asked me sincerily if i was ok with taking taking meds to help my situation before laying it on me.

After answering questions about my sleep habits, anxiety, stresses and school she let me know which medication might work best. Her first suggestion and the one i did accept was Lexapro. She told me it was one of the newer antidepressants out there and that it had minimal side-effects. I asked her how it compared to other meds like Zoloft, Prozac, or Wellbutrin, and she said this new one had the least amount of side effects in her experience and is most similar to Wellbutrin. It's hopefully going to help me regain some motivation to start getting to class and keep going regularly as well as help regain my confidence to beat this thing. My prescription is for 20mg tablets but she told me i should go the first week with half tabs (10mg) and if thats all i need i could stay there or i can start taking the regular 20mg dose.

I have 2 more appointments. one a week later with the same doctor to see how the dosage is working for me. And another later in the month to see a psychiatrist (not counselor) who focuses mainly on the meds and who i can talk to about the antidepressants further.

Again thank you so much for your support. This is something ive been dealing with for a few years now and although ive tried just about everything to help myself get over this on my own, its still getting worse. Im still going to keep working out, taking meditating walks etc to beat this thing. 
thank you guys, youve all been such a great help.  :heart:
hunter


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4803183 - 10/14/05 11:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Glad you're about to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Believe me, you're not alone in this.  :smile:


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InvisiblePyjamas
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 48
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4803760 - 10/14/05 02:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Absolutely fantastic. Good job.


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. . . Lime and limpid green, the sound surrounds the icy waters underground . . .


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OfflineHB
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Registered: 04/06/01
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Pyjamas]
    #4803933 - 10/14/05 03:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

im glad you are getting help, i deal with depression and anxiety more than i don't every day, and will be going back to therapy ...

i think it should be important to note, however, that antidepressants are a temporary relief, but they only make it easy so that you can then figure out what is wrong and fix it and then go off antidepressants ... they don't seem so safe for very long term usage, but until you get back on your feet they may help you

best of luck :smile:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Pyjamas]
    #4804749 - 10/14/05 07:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pyjamas said:
Are you honestly saying that one shouldn't seek attention and take up smoking crack because it can help deal with depression, yet at the same time drugs can mask the problem?

Depression *IS* a disease and it's rampant. Just because it can't spread like the flu doesn't mean that it isn't a "disease" as you might think it. Try telling someone with a chemical imbalance that their depression is as a result of lack of will power and motivation. It's a result of depression, not the cause.

The best advice i can offer you swift is to try and develop simple routines and stick to them as best you can for as long as possible. Having a plan of action is a great way to get through the day when you are so used to waking up and not really thinking about what's coming next. Eat as healthily as possible. Try and get plenty of fresh air and exercise when you can. Go for short 10-15 minute walks listening to some good music.
Don't get me wrong, your depression isn't just gonna vanish like that but the simplest little things help from what I've seen.

Try this for a few weeks and if you feel better, maybe then would be a good time to talk to someone anonymously about what help you can get to reduce this problem in the future.

Take my word for it, don't start taking stuff like crack. Maybe lay off the drugs altogether. You're young, there'll be plenty of time for that stuff later on. The sheer fact that you mentioned crack psilocyberin makes my blood boil. <b>You idiot! </b>The last thing someone with depression needs is a severe addiction that will only make more problems and at the same time not solve any.

Self absorbed my fucking ass.




why do you so vehemently attack my viewpoint on this, going as far as flaming (reference-- "you idiot!" in above post)? would not a simple dissent have done the job?.......

I never gave any advice to go smoke crack. I dont wish for anyone to smoke crack, especially to "cure" their problems. I know it helps your rant/argument out to villify me, but lets try keep this as civil as possible while not losing the big picture that is "we have all posted within this forum to help swiftrance".

I urge all of you to go truly do some research about this subject...please. True unbiased research, think about it "logically and rationally", ask the simple questions like "what are the statistics and percentage of Americans with depression?".
I could go on and give you mounds of such info, but i dont want to derail this thread, i wish for the focus to remain on swiftrance and his problem.

Swiftrance, please dont just accept that you are a biological and genetical "victim", atleast go research and question exactly what proof there is out there, because i read pages upon pages of newsworthy articles from reputable sources, trying to find someone with concrete proof of the cause of depression.

You were given an easy way out, someone else justifying your misery for you, and you hopped on the answer, without ever questioning it.
Have you read reports, studies, findings current and old which talk about the cause or validity of "chemical imbalance"?

"chemical imbalance" is merely a theory to the cause of depression... why? because it hasnt been proven. There are plenty of other ideas and theories as to the cause of "depression" and i urge you to atleast entertain these other possibilities before trying to find happiness in a bottle, nor is it in a crack pipe.

***back to you pyjamas*** check out the addiction stats on anti-depressants, mood modifyers, amphetamines and anti-psychotics. Maybe even attempt to study some of this information yourself before you attempt to give life altering/scientific advice on a subject you arent learned on.

I am not doing this for fun, nor to be an asshole, nor to stir up shit, nor to argue. I simply feel that there are alternative solutions and various ways of getting at the root of depression, and I want it to be heard because I care just as much as the rest of the people on this thread about "depression" and the people whom are affected by it.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4804891 - 10/14/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, you DID write in your very first sentence; "smoking crack is a good remedy for depression.... atleast as good as any other drug out there, legal or illegal" so we just assumed that's what you were recommending. :shrug:

Anyway, the chemical imbalance theory of depression seems to hold water, as I've battled with depresion and other mental health issues for a long time, and SSRI's have really helped me. Of course, as HB said and I'm sure Swiftrance knows, they are only a temporary solution, and the best course of action is some sort of psychotherapy.....


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OfflinePoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Le_Canard]
    #4805240 - 10/14/05 09:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

My doctor actually told me that if a person takes anti-depressants for atleast 9 months, their chance of relapsing into a deppresive state is lowered by quite a bit. I'm not sure if he was trying to plant a seed in my head, or actually telling the truth, but it's nice to think that this temporary solution may lead to a long term one.


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Offlineswiftrance
Let there be light

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 449
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4805282 - 10/14/05 10:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

hey guys, i totally respect both of your opinions. no need to debate here. :smile2: Here's an answer to some questions..

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
You were given an easy way out, someone else justifying your misery for you, and you hopped on the answer, without ever questioning it.
Have you read reports, studies, findings current and old which talk about the cause or validity of "chemical imbalance"?




I know thats what it seems like as thats the position i took, i used to see it that way when i would see people decide to take antidepressants. But truly, i didnt just hop onto meds as the answer to my problems without question. Most of my life ive believed antidepressants to be a sign of weakness (in my ignorance), and have tried many many methods of treament that did not include a prescription. I was actually able to defeat depression on my own before. But this is different. Its just not subsiding.

And during these 2years ive read lots of articles and self help chapters. I actually asked the doc if they can test to see if its chemical or not for sure, she shook her head and she kind of implied that its still almost impossible to know for sure. I believe you that its still tough to determine if a chemical imbalance is the culprit but why not treat it as a last resort?


Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I am not doing this for fun, nor to be an asshole, nor to stir up shit, nor to argue. I simply feel that there are alternative solutions and various ways of getting at the root of depression, and I want it to be heard because I care just as much as the rest of the people on this thread about "depression" and the people whom are affected by it.



:heart: thank you psilocyberin, i understand completely.

im really trying to be proactive about this. im going to keep working out like usual, but start running every day as well. i used to find great joy in that activity, i want to make it fun again.

Ive riddin this out long enough. Its time to recover and become productive again.
-hunter


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Edited by swiftrance (10/14/05 10:18 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4806391 - 10/15/05 02:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

swiftrance, thank you for not making me the villain on this topic yet again. All I ask is that drugs be the very last resort, or atleast multiple alternatives be exhausted before medication.
IMO, being proactive is the best possible thing in this situation, my words and statements may seem harsh/rude, but when dealing with something as drastic as depression i feel one shouldnt mince words or ideas.
I truly hope that you find what it is you are looking for in life which completes you, and if medication becomes a reality, i do hope that it can subside the problems long enough for you to fix your life.

good luck.


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InvisiblePyjamas
Stranger
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 48
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4806633 - 10/15/05 07:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:why do you so vehemently attack my viewpoint on this, going as far as flaming (reference-- "you idiot!" in above post)? would not a simple dissent have done the job?.......




Because you recommended smoking crack! It was your first sentence! NO! a simple dissent would not have done the job!

Quote:

psilocyberin said:I never gave any advice to go smoke crack. I dont wish for anyone to smoke crack, especially to "cure" their problems. I know it helps your rant/argument out to villify me, but lets try keep this as civil as possible while not losing the big picture that is "we have all posted within this forum to help swiftrance".




Yes you did!! It was your first sentence!

Quote:

psilocyberin said:I urge all of you to go truly do some research about this subject...please. True unbiased research, think about it "logically and rationally", ask the simple questions like "what are the statistics and percentage of Americans with depression?".
I could go on and give you mounds of such info, but i dont want to derail this thread, i wish for the focus to remain on swiftrance and his problem.

Swiftrance, please dont just accept that you are a biological and genetical "victim", atleast go research and question exactly what proof there is out there, because i read pages upon pages of newsworthy articles from reputable sources, trying to find someone with concrete proof of the cause of depression.

You were given an easy way out, someone else justifying your misery for you, and you hopped on the answer, without ever questioning it.
Have you read reports, studies, findings current and old which talk about the cause or validity of "chemical imbalance"?




As a matter of fact I have. There is a strong relationship between chemical imbalances and serious psychological conditions such as schizophrenia, OCD, Psychosis, bi-polar depression and clinical depression. I have a book about it if you want to buy it off me. I don't need it anymore.

Quote:

psilocyberin said:"chemical imbalance" is merely a theory to the cause of depression... why? because it hasnt been proven. There are plenty of other ideas and theories as to the cause of "depression" and i urge you to atleast entertain these other possibilities before trying to find happiness in a bottle, nor is it in a crack pipe.




There are other CAUSES of depression, social circumstances like domestic violence, poverty, drug abuse and what not, but that doesn't mean chemical imbalances/interactions isn't a cause of depression, well drug abuse yes but in terms of genetics and inheritance, It is and it has been proven. Psychological conditions CAN and DO run in the family.


Quote:

psilocyberin said:***back to you pyjamas*** check out the addiction stats on anti-depressants, mood modifyers, amphetamines and anti-psychotics. Maybe even attempt to study some of this information yourself before you attempt to give life altering/scientific advice on a subject you arent learned on.




Unfortunately I have. I'm studying Psychology and Sociology at university. I never suggested anti-depressants to swift because they aren't necessarily the best cure over the long run for some people. I've only suggested simple behavioural steps, I've seen worse cases than swift. It's not like I've written him a prescription for Christ's sake!
I fear YOU know less about this than you make out. Searching google doesn't count.

(Does anyone else see the irony of this? Posting in a Magic mushroom forum!?)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:I am not doing this for fun, nor to be an asshole, nor to stir up shit, nor to argue. I simply feel that there are alternative solutions and various ways of getting at the root of depression, and I want it to be heard because I care just as much as the rest of the people on this thread about "depression" and the people whom are affected by it.




That's exactly why I'm posting here. I don't want to argue and make enemies but your first post isn't helpful. It's as clear as day light.


--------------------
. . . Lime and limpid green, the sound surrounds the icy waters underground . . .


Edited by Pyjamas (10/15/05 07:57 AM)


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Offlineswiftrance
Let there be light

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 449
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Pyjamas]
    #4806867 - 10/15/05 10:10 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

:nonono:


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Offlineart
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Registered: 06/15/05
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4810509 - 10/16/05 10:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i am on lexapro too, and it has helped me a lot. I really hope it will be able to help you out. I know exactly what you are going through. Make sure to really give the meds a chance, i didn't really start seeing a difference until after month of using them. Even then it was the subtle things that really showed they were working

I have to disagree psilocyberin, maybe i do not really comprehend what you are saying so this might be kind of off the subject but oh well.

I would say for most of my life i have been depressed, but i had no idea that i was, i remember talking to people with depression and being so grateful that i did not have it. So i never felt sorry for myself, i did use alternative ways to deal with being depressed. Exercise being the main thing. I thought the way i was feeling was all normal and that if just learned to get over it i would be fine. Now i feel like just learning to deal with depression is actually just covering it up, and medication is the cure. Sure you can use alternative methods to help cope with some symptoms, but what about the apathy, lethargy, tiredness, or social problems? Do you know of any ways to deal with those problems? (I am not trying to attack you at all, i really want to know some techniques if you have any.)

I really hope you find something to help you, remember that if lexapro does not help you it does not mean that no medicine will. Just hang in there, you will find something that works.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4810672 - 10/16/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Have you ever seen the movie "13 conversations about one thing"?

there is a part in that movie, where a man is asked "what is it you want from life?", and he answered, "i want what any man wants; to wake up enthused, to be happy".

Basically the movie was about your attitude towards life, how perception of any event is just as important as the event.

Like i said before, you are only helpless if you think you are.

sorry to use a movie premise, but i think that movie itself does a great job of showing the strata of human grief and suffering, reaction to misery and "unfairness".

things are either intrinsic or extrinsic. Which one do you think depression is?


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4811300 - 10/16/05 02:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Correct me if i am wrong, but from what i understand your theory is if you are told you have depression you will act like it and even feel depressed; and if you get over the fact that you have been told you have depression then you will feel better?

my point was, i did not know i was depressed, so i did not feel helpless, or have a perception of how i should feel. While i was on the lexapro i was actually hoping that it would not work because i did not want to have depression. It wasn't until i stopped taking the lexapro that i really saw the difference.
Depression is more than just feeling sad. It affected every single aspect of my life, despite the fact that i had no idea that i was depressed. I was happy with my life, i was so grateful for everything i had.

On the "chemical imbalance" theory, if depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance, then how do SSRI work? If depression was caused by a persons perception of life, then wouldn't drugs like lexapro ineffective.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4811571 - 10/16/05 04:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

you seem to really treat depression as if it were a virus, something extrinsic. It isnt about "thinking yourself to feel better", its more like readjusting/learning/progressing spiritually, mentally, physically and emotionally. Your whole "logical" assesment of your life and actions should be changed.
Exactly how is one able to be depressed and not know it? subconscious emotions?

by blaming it on something external or detached from yourself, you refuse to confront what actions and choices you took which lead you to be chronically depressed.
When i said that crack is as good of a cure for depression as any other drug, i was trying to make a point about when generally drugging yourself to ignore your physical/mental problems, there is no difference between the two.
sure, lexapro probably keeps the "symptoms" at bay for a while, but so would crack effectivly if it werent so publically and socially frowned upon.
SSRI's basically just flood your brain with Seratonin, not allowing the released nuerotransmitters to be "cleaned back up", which is very similar to what MDMA does, which both types of DRUGS have been linked to cases of (wikipedia quote) "Serotonin syndrome is a condition caused by an excess of serotonin in the brain. The effects of serotonin syndrome may progress from headaches, dizziness, euphoria, abnormal movements of the foot and ankle, hyperreflexia, and vomiting, to coma and death. Rarer effects include rapid changes of mood, from severe depression to the point of being suicidal, to manic phases characterized by violence towards others and destruction. <b>Since serotonin's action is increased by anti-depressants such as Prozac, Luvox, and Paxil, the signs are often mistaken for extreme Bipolar Disorder, prompting an increase in dosage.</b>"

It is no secret that drugs can easily affect mood and emotions, but buying into some "chemical destiny" where all of our thoughts, actions, choices, decisions, and general wellbeing are dictated by a mixture of chemicals within us is not only laughable, it is dangerous because we are making people dependant on drugs, but the drugs that are "OK" and socially acceptable, so you dont have to feel bad about being a junkie.

Why is it that the stats and percentages of Americans afflicted with "depression" drastically increases with age? Why do no two national averages of americans afflicted with depression match? Why do we allow 7 year old children to be put on such strong drugs which showed 2 times the amount of suicidal side effects than the placebo?
Why does every year the amount of people afflicted with depression increase? Why is it that every month we see some new drug get a "black box warning" or is altogether pulled from the shelf? why are regular MD's, family doctors, any doctor almost! able to diagnose people with one visit and are able to prescribe ADHD drugs?
Why is the pharmaceutical industry the wealthiest in the world? Why do the majority of the members on a drugs advisory and evaluation panel have financial ties with pharm corps?

Do you not see the pristine marketing over the last 5 years? The amount of lobbying and legislation that has gone on in favor of making pharm corps billions of $$$ alone should tip you off.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4812232 - 10/16/05 06:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

you seem to really treat depression as if it were a virus, something extrinsic. It isnt about "thinking yourself to feel better", its more like readjusting/learning/progressing spiritually, mentally, physically and emotionally. Your whole "logical" assesment of your life and actions should be changed.




Well, what are some ways to help deal with social anxiety, tiredness, and irritability?  Besides i never had a problem with my assesment to begin with.  I never felt sorry for myself, i never new that i was depressed.

Quote:

Exactly how is one able to be depressed and not know it? subconscious emotions?





I knew that i felt sad, but i didn't know that i was depressed.  I thought everything i was feeling was normal, but it is not. I thought by exercising, and trying to force myself to be happy i would be fine. 


Quote:

by blaming it on something external or detached from yourself, you refuse to confront what actions and choices you took which lead you to be chronically depressed.




again, I did not blame my feelings on anything! That is my point, i did not make any choices that lead me to become chronically depressed.  I exercised, ate healthy, and had friends. I still don't understand what you mean "by blaming it on something."  Why is it i was depressed yet my friends who had it worse off than me weren't? My depression was not brought on by anything external.


Hmmm, yeah crack works just a good as lexapro, except for the fact that it will kill you and cause you to become addicted. :rolleyes:


I have no idea where you are getting all of your information, but SSRI's do not cause you to become some zombie that is addicted to them.  Depression is caused by a lack of seratonin,  SSRI's regulate the amount of seratonin into your brain, not just releasing a bunch of it like MDMA. That is why people can not roll on SSRI's.


Look, This summer is when i started taking the lexapro,  Right now i am not on it.  Within a couple weeks of not taking it i noticed all of my old feelings coming back to me. It wasn't just a matter of feeling happy and sad, when i was on them i did things that i never would have, like go on a walk with my family, drive in the city, small things like that.  Even when i was on the lexapro i was in denial of having depression, i still thought everything i felt was normal.  I stopped taking the lexapro to see if the lexapro really worked, hey what do you know i started feeling like shit again, and it was NOT because i was "addicted" or the lexpro messed me up, these were old feelings, it was a familar feeling.  Like last night, there was a big party that i wanted to go to but i just couldn't go because of my depression, that is something i used to do all the time before i started taking lexapro.  While on the lexapro my social life increased a lot, it was not until i stopped taking it that i realised that.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4813993 - 10/16/05 11:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Dont you think that the act of inhibiting a natural bodily function is a little odd, or possibly damaging in the long run?

I understand and believe that Lexapro assisted you in becoming socially active again, but any assortment of drugs could have done the same thing. Plenty of people have died as a direct cause of Lexapro, just because it is legal doesnt mean it is harmless or safe.

And exactly how long will you/have you be/been on Lexapro? How does Lexapro cure depression? not just treat its symptoms, or mask the problems, but actually CURE someone of it for the rest of their life?

There are also a good many more questions left unanswered from my last post.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4814285 - 10/17/05 12:22 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

art - "My depression was not brought on by anything external..."

That's exactly his point. You' treated it like it was brought on by something external, yet you know it's internal.

I'm afraid I completely agree with psilocyberin. But the core main point of his argument is being lost in your sea of over-analyzation.

He is saying, "depression stems completely from being self-absorbed, which is easy to do in this society. Read the first post and see if it doesnt reek of self-absorbed thought."

To rephrase and make more conrete; Depression stems from the constant scrutinization of your personal world view. This results in self-absorption.

When one becomes self-absorbed, he will start to develope worrysome thought patterns consisting of how he comes across to the world. It starts to snowball and wabam! youve got yourself some depression


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4814400 - 10/17/05 12:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Self-absorbed may be the wrong word...

there are plenty of self-absorbed people that aren't depressed.

A better way of putting it would be negative self-talk.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4816297 - 10/17/05 01:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well yes, and there can be self-absorbed people who are extremely cocky and think highly of themselves, but I'm saying it comes from within. And we're not talking temporary depression that comes from the death of a loved one or losing a baseball game but the chronic depression that consumes every thought the person has.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4816364 - 10/17/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

right....and those consuming thoughts are negative self-talk.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4816823 - 10/17/05 04:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Will just typing in the quote button work? Or is there some way to reply and see all of the previous posts? I am confused with this forums set up.

sorry for not using quotes, and sorry if it seems confusing.


i don't think lexapro is odd at all, doesn't work the same as vitamins, medicine for leukemia, or diabetes?


and so what exactly are the drugs that could help me become socially active? I thought your whole point was that using drugs to help you is bad. Yes, i see your point about crack will have the same effect, but again, lexapro is not addicting, nor will lexapro kill you. So, can you give me some ways to help with my problems that do not include drugs?
again, i really mean that, right now since i am not on my anti depressants it would be nice to find something to help me.


I don't think lexapro has the ability to cure me, but that goes back to the fact that i believe depression is a chemical imbalance. If depression is brought on by external situations then yes i think lexapro has the ability to cure.


There are also many questions you have not answered. If you are referring to all of the questions at the bottom, not all of them really have much to do with depression, and in some cases i agree with you. Once i figure out how to use quotes i will answer them.



Moxemarld,

I am really confused on how being self-absorbed makes you become depressed? I also wonder if you read all of my posts. Anyways, yes you are right, this whole argument really comes down to, is depression caused by a chemical imbalance or external situations. So, what caused me to become depressed? How was i self-absorbed, that is what i don't understand. I did not have a negative perception of my life or the world. I did not think i was depressed or had any problem. I did not scrutinize the world.



Anyways, please tell me how to overcome my depression without drugs. I seriously will give it a fair chance. I would love to not need to take pills. I really do hate taking them.


I am also curious as to what both of you are basing your information off of. This is the first time i have ever heard someone question the theory that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4816906 - 10/17/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

That's odd that this is the firs time you heard someone question the chemical imbalance thing...did you not see Tom Cruise and his Scientology rant with Matthew Lauwry (spelling?)?

Dude...if you were unaware that you were depressed....then me thinks you weren't actually depressed.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4817133 - 10/17/05 05:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i think i have been depressed most of my life, i didn't know what it was like to feel normal. I had not known anything different. There are a lot of other symptoms of depression other than just feeling depressed. For example, tiredness, apathy, anxiety, social anxiety. I have always been extremely lethargic and tired all the time. I thought this was due to something physical, yet i could never find out what. It wasn't until i started taking the anti depressants that i started getting some of my energy back. Even when i felt sad, i thought that all teenagers would get that way. I did not realise that what i was feeling was not normal.

That is why i think depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. How would the lexapro have been able to help me if not for a chemcial imbalance? If depresion was caused by external things, than wouldn't the SSRI's not affect me at all? My views on life did not change at all, nothing really changed except for the fact that i was taking the lexapro.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4817262 - 10/17/05 05:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

no teenagers do get tired...and it is normal.

how old are you?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4817429 - 10/17/05 06:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

ok, getting tired is one thing, but being constantly tired is another. there were so many times that i would come home and just sleep because i was too tired to do anything. I was always out of it. Trust me, it was not normal.

im 18.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4818024 - 10/17/05 08:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i think you're being to hard on yourself.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4818175 - 10/17/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

how so?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4818246 - 10/17/05 09:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

you think you were depressed most of your life...yet you didn't realize it till recently when you got on meds.

that just sounds odd.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4818441 - 10/17/05 09:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

did you not read my posts? i don't know how i can explain this any better. It is just like having cancer for awhile, you might have some symptoms but not know that it is because of cancer. You don't really know you have a problem until you go to the doctor and have them tell you.

I thought everything i was feeling was normal, it was not normal. It may sound naive and stupid but despite the fact that i often thought of suicide and would wish for death, i had no idea i was depressed. I didn't know that being tired, anxious, anti-social could be caused by depression. Depression isn't something that happends over night, how is one to know that they have depression unless they try meds?
I don't see what sounds so odd about that.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4818459 - 10/17/05 09:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The brain cannot function properly if the body is not healthy.

What do you eat?


--------------------


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4818992 - 10/17/05 11:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

dude....if you often think of suicide and wish for death...how could you think things were normal?

if you're tired all the time and anxious and anti-social....how could you think you are normal?

dude...these things aren't always caused by depression...it could very well be some other mental disorder. maybe even a personality disorder.

I think you just need to grow up and learn some more...and stop convincing yourself that you are not normal. well...you really are not normal...you are unique...normal doesn't exist in my opinion. ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecy?
go read some psychology books....or self help stuff...or take a psychology class.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4819202 - 10/18/05 12:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"For example, tiredness, apathy, anxiety, social anxiety."

Self-absorption is the seedling that grew into this tree of problems.

I will try to break it down in a most simple way.

- Thoughts are focused on the self. This inevitably leads to thinking about how you come across to others. Eventually it gets to compulsive because of constant thinking about it (when certain actions or thoughts are constantly repeated it becomes almost like the effect of darkening the same line over and over on a peice of paper. Thoughts will naturally start doing it more (is the case with ocd)).

-Anyway then it doesnt even have to be depressing thoughts but the more intensely you critisize yourself the more dissatisfied you may get with it. This leads to apathy because the more you seem to tell yourself how hard your trying to get it right the more you fail. You just end up giving up.

- So you may just spare yourself the trouble of interacting with people because you know itll just get you down.

-This eventually starts to circumvent the other aspects of your life and you may never feel liek trying at anything at all and develop a mentallity almost parallel to exestentialism and become completely apathetic.

This may seem a little extreme but I had two close friends whom I watched travel this path.


Anyways, I used to be somewhat depressed and had some negative thought loops and I found that Kava does a good job in 'rewiring' your thought patterns. I just ordered it from a trusted online vendor and used it for about a week every morning and night (drink a glass).

It's not addictive and isn't really bad for you (although it's not too nice on the liver, but that may be from extended use). It makes u pretty content and relaxes your muscles. You'll probably notice a lot less worrying aswell.

It's been a while since I've used it and I could say that it pretty much cured me of any anxiety. What's the harm, give it a shot.

EDIT- I just read mjf's last post. I would stay away from self-help shit. I think it will just end up getting you more and more critical of yourself. The best thing you can do without taking any substance is get your mind off yourself. Read something your interested in. Learn it and talk about it with somebody. Also just go out and talk to people and get over have a grand old time and laugh. It's easier said then done and takes a deal of will power but it's definitly achievable.


Edited by Moxemerald (10/18/05 12:53 AM)


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4819262 - 10/18/05 01:00 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i've had very long deep drepressive times when all i thought of was death and me being worthless...i felt nervous around my closest friends and even family....

what helped me i think was music and reading.

therapy has been proven to work just as well if not better than meds.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4819263 - 10/18/05 01:01 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I suggest reading fiction.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4821715 - 10/18/05 05:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

moxemerald,
That may be the case with some people, but i never felt like anything you described. I often felt terrible for no reason. I do find some truth to your theory. I would sometimes get in that loop when i came across problems later on in my life. Contrary to what everyone else has been saying, I think i do have a chemical imbalance in my brain, and that is what causes me to get in those cycles. Even when i was real young there were times were i would feel sad for no reason, i no for a fact i thought that deeply at so young of an age.

If depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance, then why do SSRI's work?


I have heard about kava but i don't really know much about it. That really sounds interesting. Can you buy it in stores like you can salvia? How much does it intoxicate you? Can you drive, or think coherently while on it? Are you sure it is not addicting at all? Can extended use cause an addiction?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4821800 - 10/18/05 05:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

art, you are getting your cause and effect mixed up.

Ok, what we KNOW is that there are (according to the US government) aprox. 19% of Americans which feel an incredible emotion not inducive to functioning in our society. What we dont KNOW is the cause.

Now just because one certain thing helps alleviate the undesired EFFECT, doesnt mean that it is directly countering the CAUSE.

In fact, i would not be asking the question you did, but asking this question: "If the cause of depression is known, why can't we counter that cause? and if SSRI's help, yet do not cure the problem, why do we keep throwing SSRI's at people?

"insanity is doing the exact same thing and expecting different results" -Einstein

when we are talking about depression, we are dealing with a persons MIND. If you honestly think that all your actions are made and decided by chemicals in your brain randomly swapping over the threshold of synapses, then you have really given up on life. This view of existence gives way to a "chemical destiny" which absolves you of any responsibility for your actions and wellbeing.
Now since Depression affects the mind of a person, this would make it an intrinsic problem, not an extrinsic. the depression comes from within your mind, and you are the only one who has control over your mind.

A problem caused by something intrinsic can be abated by something extrinsic, but only cured by something which is intrinsic as well.

Do you really think that you are somehow genetically predisposed to enjoy life less than everyone else?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4822263 - 10/18/05 07:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

ok, so you think using SSRI's to treat depression is bad, but you have yet to give me an alternative. Like I said, i am not on any SSRI's and still feeling like shit, so i would be happy to give any suggestions a try.

Just because SSRI's don't cure depression does not make them useless, they help many people be able to live normal lives. So what about the people who don't have the time/energy to overcome depression with out any meds?


I am assuming you have seen someone on drugs, don't drugs affect your brain, causing you to act differently? Isn't depression the same way? Just look at someone on MDMA, and someone who is depressed. Aren't the chemicals causing them to act a certain way. Just because chemicals in your brain have the ability to change someones personality does not mean that a person has non control over their actions.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone might have a chemical imbalance in their brain? Why is depression often seen to be genetic. It turns out my mom had depression.....I did not find out about it until AFTER i started taking the SSRI's. There are so many cases of young kids with depression, doctors are able to find this before the kids even know what depression is. Going back to your first posts, i am positive that i did not get depressed because of my outlook on life. I don't care what anyone BELIEVES, i know myself.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4823019 - 10/18/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Im not here to tell you what is good or bad. Im not here to point fingers.
All i want to do is offer an alternate view on this.

My alternative to taking SSRI's? change your grasp on the world. expand on personal philosophies, add and subtract from them. Find out what it is you want from life. Find out why you havent gotten that.




Yes, i have seen someone on drugs. Yes drugs affect your brain... so does breathing oxygen.


I have yet to find any scientific proof that depression is genetic, only statistics showing that x amount of mother and son have it or so on. My view has a different answer than genetics: your philosophy/worldview. Who taught the majority of it to you? your parents.

How do you have an "illness" which affects your behaviour, mood, and thoughts and not know about it? Do you mean you didnt have a name to give it? or you were just hopping along one day and realized "it isnt MY fault im miserable, i just have a genetic predisposition to social dysfunction!".


Drugs are drugs. Taking them to make you "feel mo better" is doing the exact same thing the heroin and crack junkies do. Im not saying that being a junkie is a bad or a good thing. They take drugs to forget about their problems, get rid of that nagging depression.

Also, how does one set the line for what happiness is. After all, isnt depression relative? Couldnt all of us be happier? more aware? more enlightened? more knowledgable? more enthused? have more energy?
Where do you draw the line? I can think of a few drugs that can actually make you feel like all of the above.
Are you measuring your own happiness to other peoples supposed happiness? what makes you think that depression ISNT a normal thing? that it isnt something every person has to overcome, yet some didnt make it over the fence? What makes you think that you are entitled to the easy yet fruitless path to happiness?
Someone told you that you were handicapped, and you believed them....


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4824810 - 10/19/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I agree completely with psiolcyberin. The alternative to any substance would be self discipline. You just have to think outside the box and train your mind to rewire itself that way.

" How much does it intoxicate you? Can you drive, or think coherently while on it? Are you sure it is not addicting at all? Can extended use cause an addiction? "

It is not addictive. The effects are very subtle; so subtle in fact, that I was drinking a nice glass in the morning before classes. It helps you focus a little more and your mind is a little bit calmer.

If you cannot find any solace without taking any substances I would reccomend trying this out. You can buy it legally liek you would buy salvia. I just ordered it.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4825495 - 10/19/05 02:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i think the biggest issue is whether or not depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. So if depression is caused by something external, then why do SSRI's work?

I still can't figure out why the idea of people with a chemical imbalance in their brain is so unusual. Isn't that similar to Leukimia? I think it is leukimia, where people will not be able to produce white blood cells, or something like that.


Do you guys feel the same way about SSRI's as other drugs?



How am i supposed to change my outlook on life? I don't think i have a problem with my view on my life. I am actully proud of my view on life. Can changing your outlook on life help with anxiety, or any other symptoms of depression?


I am also not trying to tell you what is good or bad, i appreciate your views and comments. Sorry if i might seem like i am pointing fingers, or getting angry. I really am interested in understanding your theory on this.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4825535 - 10/19/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have real hard time understanding you. Some of your statements seem pretty contradictory.

Here is what I hear you saying....

I have a good view on life...
I couldn't tell I was depressed...
I took SSRI's and they affected my brain and made me feel different...
So I must have been depressed.

and also...
Quote:

So if depression is caused by something external, then why do SSRI's work?




I really don't understand that question. We have been saying all along that depression is intrinsic. No one knows the CAUSE of depression. Ok?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4826979 - 10/19/05 08:48 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i thought you meant that depression was caused by things like your view on life, or problems in your life; I think depression is also caused by a chemical imbalance. So if depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance, then my question is why does medicine meant for fixing a chemical imbalance help people (myself included).


what is so contradictory about that? I do think i have a good view on life. I still had many symptoms of depression. My view on life hasn't seemed to have any impact on my feelings. I know people who have terrible outlooks on life who are not depressed. I did not know i was depressed because of my ignorance on the issue; i knew that i felt sad, tired, anxious, ect. but i did not know that would be classified as depression. It was not until i started taking the lexapro that i realised what life was meant to feel like, remember the depression formed over a long period of time, at a point in my life in which i was constantly changing. I thought all of my feelings were normal, as stupid as that seems.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4827023 - 10/19/05 08:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Don't use a word if you don't know what it means.

The drug....will affect you...no matter if you are depressed or not....right?

Say you were healthy (meaning your brain was in a good balance of chemicals) wouldn't the drug still affect you?

Your feelings are directly tied to your thoughts (your view on life). You should take a psychology class...I think you would like it.

How could you be ignorant about how you feel? Could you seriously not tell if it was good or bad? Lets say you have all the symptoms of a depressed person...but you think you feel fine....then guess what....you do feel fine.

If you didn't know that you felt depressed but you felt sad, tired, and anxious...then you knew something was wrong...you just didnt' know that was depression.

Did you know that cognitive behavioral therapy (go look it up) is proven to work just as well as meds....and in my opinion..better...because you aren't relying on somethign artificial and you have lasting change....not just an illusion.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4827434 - 10/19/05 10:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

im going on some ssri's tomorrow. I use cannabis for my medication now but Im getting worried about my lungs so im trying something else. I see using ssri;s as a crutch untill a person can get back on their feet.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Blu Spore]
    #4827645 - 10/19/05 11:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm wondering Jimmy...and you too Art...

how many visits to the psyc...did you go to before even being diagnosed or getting the meds...and did they recomend...or did you try anythign else first?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4827683 - 10/19/05 11:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well I went to counselors as a young teen but I have diagnosed myself as having a mood disorder. I get crazy mood swings and sometimes I will just feel dead like no emotion almost....well the emotion is there I just can't muster any energy to express it.

I have taken all sorts of herbal cures for depression and they dont even put a dent in it. Both depression and that bi-polar runs big time through both sides of my family....one of my cousins was so bad that she couldnt get out of bed anymore with out meds. Im not that bad compared to some of my family members and I am not bi-polar because I never get the bonus of the extreme ups along with the downs.


Edited by Blu Spore (10/19/05 11:49 PM)


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Blu Spore]
    #4827785 - 10/20/05 12:00 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

What type of counselor?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4828044 - 10/20/05 01:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I had gone to school councelors back when I was still in high school and I took advantage of some free sessions offered by my Dads work (kinda like dental but I got free shrink visits) They never really helped much at all. Most of them just offer common sense advice then end up recomending ssri's anyways.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Blu Spore]
    #4828671 - 10/20/05 08:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I meant what type of therapy do they suscribe to?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Blu Spore]
    #4828851 - 10/20/05 09:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

JimmytheWorm said:
Well I went to counselors as a young teen but I have diagnosed myself as having a mood disorder.




You diagnosed yourself?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Blu Spore]
    #4828900 - 10/20/05 09:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You didn't write your own prescription for SSRI's too did you...or obtain them with out a prescription?


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OfflineMoxemerald
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4829012 - 10/20/05 10:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"My view on life hasn't seemed to have any impact on my feelings. I know people who have terrible outlooks on life who are not depressed."

Your view on life has everything to do with your feelings. And your opinion of a terrible outlook on life may not be someone else's. When we say view on life we're not talking about "oh im going to grow up and get a job and have a family" (for example), but rather, your automatic responses in your head to certain situations and about people and everything that is involved in your daily rituals.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4831307 - 10/20/05 06:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm, i am not sure if SSRI's would work for a normal person. I will find out though. Just out of curiosity, how do you know that they will work for everyone?

What word?

umm, that is what i said, i knew that i was feeling bad, but i didn't know it was because of depression. I thought everyone, especially teenagers would feel like that.

I will ask my doctor about cognitive behavioral therapy. How do you know that it is better?


I still don't understand how my view on life is going to help me overcome depression. Honestly, i do not think i can change my view. Maybe i am confused on what you mean by view on life.

Most of the things i have been saying have been my personal experience with depression. Not just some information that has been looked up on the Internet, or my theory on something. I know how i feel, i know what i have been through.
If there is a better way to overcome depression than please tell me, i know that i should "change my view" but i really do not understand what you mean. If you can explain it to me, i defiantly will try it. I very well could be wrong, but it is so hard for me to change my beliefs after i have already gone through it.
Even if there are other ways to get through depression, what is so bad about taking SSRI's. It seems like it would be extremely hard to get through depression not using any medication. Especially at younger ages, or in times of despair.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4833575 - 10/21/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I like cognitive behavioral therapy more that is all.

You were using extrensic in a weird way and I didn't think you understood that we were saying it's an intrinsic problem.
Your "view on life" or I'd rather call it your self-talk really does play a big role in determining your emotions. Believe it or not we are constantly talking to ourselves in our head....you may not even be aware of it all the time....changing the way we talk to ourselves can change our emotions.
You say you know you should change your view yet earlier you said you thought your view on life is fine.....i don't understand. Using SSRI's are ok in my mind to use as a tool for awhile...but to use them as your only form of treatment and to use them for a long time...is a mistake in my mind....you can become dependent on them.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4833860 - 10/21/05 12:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Art, what is it that you consider normal? SSRI's affect everyone in the same way, it floods the brain with serotonin. When taking them, you are directly inhibiting a natural brain function.

To attempt to fully explain what understanding and cognitions one has to go through to stop being chronically depressed would be a very long task.
Im not saying that MY view on life is the correct one, nor am i suggesting that you adopt my view. I am suggesting that you re-evaluate your life and examine your own view, try to step out of yourself, observe your own behavior, observe your own hypocrisy, observe human interaction, find out what it is you want in life.
I suggest you change your understanding/perception of existence, because the one you have right now apparently isnt conducive to living a happy life.

and like I said before...what is a happy life? is there a universal answer to that question? Do you guage your happiness against the people you see? the people on television? happiness is attained, it isnt in a pill.
Basically, what i am hearing from you right now, is that you "are genetically predisposed to not be able to enjoy life as much as the next person, which isnt your fault, and there is nothing you can do about it besides taking drugs with multiple side effects."

See how that view is only condusive to defeatist attitudes and depression? Are you not responsible for your own happiness?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4835622 - 10/21/05 06:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

dont have time to read this whole read but just wanted to share my experience. i was depressed a few years ago, antidepressents did NOTHING. they only make it worse because every time you take a pill you only reinforce the notion that there is something wrong with you. getting off the antidepressents was a bitch too. an exhaustive analysis of antidepressent research showed that 34% of people taking antidepressents get better while 32% of people taking placebo get better. the difference is trivial.

to summarize, in my opinion, if you are depressed, psychiatric drugs are NOT the answer. try a lifestyile change, try therapy, try meditation, try yoga, try spending more time outside, try just completely and unconditionally accepting the way you feel and not letting the depression bother you.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4835635 - 10/21/05 06:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i still don't understand what you mean. How should I change my perception of existence, or any of the other things you mentioned. I know that your view on life can cause people to become depressed, but I don't think I have a problem with my view on life. Maybe an example would help clear things up. Do you know anyone who has cured depression by changing their view on life?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835683 - 10/21/05 06:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Art....how are we supposed to tell you how to change your perception? We don't know what it is you're thinking (saying to yourself) that is making you depressed. What kind of negative thoughts about life do you have?

I have been depressed before...and I'm no longer depressed now...I didn't use medicine.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4835689 - 10/21/05 07:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

When we say view on life...I think you might be looking too broad of a picture....maybe narrow it down to how you view your life and the situations you encounter or how you feel/think about yourself and your relationships.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835760 - 10/21/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
i still don't understand what you mean. How should I change my perception of existence, or any of the other things you mentioned. I know that your view on life can cause people to become depressed, but I don't think I have a problem with my view on life. Maybe an example would help clear things up. Do you know anyone who has cured depression by changing their view on life?




It isnt even really negative thoughts that i am talking about. It is an indescribable understanding which can vary from person to person.

I dont know anyone who was "cured" of depression, mainly because i usually rid myself of people with "depression". Usually when i express my views on the subject they either want to fight or cry.

But I can tell you that all the people i surroud myself with, which have this certain understanding, 100% of them, dont have depression. Now 1 out of every 5 americans is "afflicted" with depression, which would mean that atleast 2 or 3 of my friends should have depression.

If you really want to take advice, i would suggest watching the movie "13 conversations about 1 thing" a few times, if you would like an idea of the "understanding" i mean.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835761 - 10/21/05 07:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

. It seems like it would be extremely hard to get through depression not using any medication. Especially at younger ages, or in times of despair.




antidepressents do not improve 2/3 of the poeple who take them. most depressed people get through it without medication. antidepressents are also not indiciated for young people. in england it is illegal to prescribe them for anyone under 18. SSRIs also increase the suicide risk by a factor of 4.


Edited by Deviate (10/21/05 07:18 PM)


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4835801 - 10/21/05 07:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

Exactly how is one able to be depressed and not know it? subconscious emotions?




interesting concept.

i imagine examining oneself will only yield difficulties if a person finds emotions they've buried.

i think you are right about a person not being able to change their perspective, art :thumbup:

i think often people who talk about looking on the bright side, are afraid of their own dark feelings, and what they mean.  (nothing wrong with being afraid.)

re: ssris, exercise also affects brain chemistry in a way that tends to help with depression.  everything a person does affects their brain chemistry.  humans are part of nature, and so are their creations, if you ask me.

if a person on their path finds wellbutrin helpful, god bless em i say. :heart:


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4835968 - 10/21/05 08:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

there are a lot of things in life that i might find helpful and god better not bless me for them.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4836032 - 10/21/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

but crunchytoast, that certainly doesn't mean it is advisable to take wellbutrin for depression. if people find smoking crack helpful should they be given crack? i mean its certainly possible that it could help but why start out with something that studies have shown is not likely to help? according to research antidepressents are about as effective as placebo so why take something that is going to have side effects, be potentially addictive and doesnt really cure the problem if theres no solid evidence it will help? if someone is already taking it and truly feels it is improving their life, i am not going to stand in their way. however i would not in good faith ever encourage someone to start taking wellbrutrin for depression.


Edited by Deviate (10/21/05 08:29 PM)


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4836194 - 10/21/05 09:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

where did you get your information deviate? I have never heard of anyone getting addicted to SSRI's, I even asked my doctors about that and they have never heard of that either. The reason people kill themselves after taking SSRI's is due to there increase in energy, a sign of improvement. If a person has a high risk, then they are evaluated throughout the first couple of weeks. Again with the crack, SSRI's are not addicting, and will not kill you! From what everyone else has been saying, SSRI's just release serotonin, so then how can they not be effective if everyone will see an improvement? I am not sure if that is true but i will find out next Friday.



"Art....how are we supposed to tell you how to change your perception? We don't know what it is you're thinking (saying to yourself) that is making you depressed. What kind of negative thoughts about life do you have?"

That is my problem with your theory, I don't think I have any negative thoughts about life. I will try and try and describe my thoughts though. Maybe I am just missing something. I have a negative view on the world as a whole, but I have gotten over that. Although I think this world is a cruel and terrible place, my goal in life is to help other people. I feel that if I can help out one person then my life is not in vain. So although I have this negative view of the world I am very optimistic about my life. I look forward to growing up and being able to experience new things, and to continue to make a good impact on this world.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4836235 - 10/21/05 09:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"according to research antidepressents are about as effective as placebo so why take something that is going to have side effects, be potentially addictive and doesnt really cure the problem if theres no solid evidence it will help?"

it's my understanding that gererally, antidepressants only get approved when they're showed to be more effective in treating depression than placebo, generally in double-blind studies with statistically significant results. you are standing on semi-solid ground if you are taking issue with how much more effective than placebo antidepressants are. it's arguable that most antidepressants aren't "much more" effective than placebo in the short run. yet there is a difference in effect. also, unless i'm mistaken, placebo effects tend to disappear in the long-run.

side effects- i agree a person should consider the side effects before they take an antidepressant.

Quote:

be potentially addictive


are you referring to physical or psychological addiction? i don't know any studies of physical addiction. do you?

as for psychological addiction- i think that's a misunderstood process. scientists have shown that falling in love excites the "addiction" parts of the brain. if you ask me, this doesn't mean that love is addictive, but that scientists have mis-labelled the "addiction" parts of the brain. i'd argue it's the growing-attached-to-something parts of the brain that scientists have noticed get excited during addiction- and they conclude that because this part of the brain gets excited during addiction as the addict grows psychologically attached to the physically addictive drug, that it must be addiction.

IOW, if you ask me, there's no difference between "psychological addiction" and any other kind of growing-attached-to-something, besides the existence of a stigma attached to whatever behavior is in question.

as for your claim that it doesn't cure the problem- what is your evidence for that statement? personally, i havent researched the topic enough to share studies about relapses, but i know a number of people who used antidepressants years ago, and stopped without having serious relapses into depression. (yea i admit, that's merely anecdotal evidence.)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4836535 - 10/21/05 11:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

today in class my psychology professor told us that an exhaustive review of all the studies done on the effectiveness of antidepressents came up with the result that 34% of patients who take antidepressents improve while 32% of patients who take placebo improve. this difference is trivial and i think this alone is enough to throw out antidepressents as an effective treatment for depression. you'd be far better off if youre doctor simply gave you some sugar pills and told you they were a powerful antidepressent. also keep in mind 66% of patients given antidepressents do not improved. that means if you decide to take antidepressents there is a 66% chance that you are exposing yourself to a potentially harmful drug with many side affects and possible unknown long term consequences for no benefit.

when i said addictive i meant physically addictive, most antidepressents produce potentially severe withdrawal symptoms. it was hell getting effexor and i don't know if i could have done it without weed, tapering did not relieve the withdrawal symtoms i experienced. it took me 4 attempts to get off the drug and i experienced mild withdrawal symptoms for months after wards. all the while i was on it, i experienced no benefits, only side affects. there are countless cases of people who had far worse times getting off their drugs than i did, just do a search to find out some the nightmare withdrawals people have experienced. there are all kinds of reports of weird side effects like elelctric shock feelings in the head and other strange stuff along with worsened depression and suicide ideation. SSRIs have also been demonstrated to increase the suicide rate by 4 and people who have been been considered not at risk for suicide have mysteriously killed themselves while on them. i myself experienced a strange desire to commit sucide several times while on the drug, something which i have never felt at any other point in my life. the feeling was extremely powerful and it was only because i told myself that it was only the drug making me feel that way that i didn't act on it. in general, it is my opinion that being on drugs is undesirable and should always be a last resort. there are so many chemical changes that go on in the body when it is chronically exposed to drugs which the long term affects of are not even known. basically you are slowly poisoning yourself and it was the very feeling that i was poisoning myself that drove me to get off effexor despite the withdrawal.

also as i said before, taking pills every day only reinforces the notion that there is something wrong with you and you don't have the ability to deal with life on your own. there is a much greater sense of accomplishment when you get over depression on your own than when you take a drug.

when i said it didn't cure the problem i meant that there is no evidence that antidepressents cure depression, it is possible they relieve the symptoms for a while but no solid evidence that they cure or correct the underlying problem.

anyway for these reasons i am against the use of antidepressents. they are tremendously over prescribed and harm more people than they help. since i think use is undesirable, comes with great risk and is cleary not very affective i see no reason for someone to take that risk, especially when there are many less risky and statistcally more affective treatments for depression. its possible that that they may help certain people but they should be an absolute last resort, not the first treatment offered to people who go to their doctor and tell him they are depressed. i don't buy into the "feeling blue? take this pill" philosophy. doctors hand them out like candy. it took me one doctors visit and just a few sentences to get on high doses of effexor, my doctor did not even fully inform me of the risks or suggest i try a non drug treatment first. i didn't even have to submit any real proof i was even depressed. there are so many people who think "im not enjoying life, i dont know what to do about it so ill go on one of these drugs" and these are the same people who are still depressed years later and they often end up on multiple medications to treat the side affects of the first drugs they began taking. my proffesor told me hes had patients on as many as 14 different drugs who were still depressed.


Edited by Deviate (10/21/05 11:16 PM)


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4836606 - 10/21/05 11:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i'd like to see that study- here are two possible flaws from the information you provided-

*32 vs 34% for ALL anti-depressants. this implies a population of anti-depressants, IOW that some anti-depressants are more successful than the 34% (and some less sucessful). what's wrong with taking a more effective anti-depressant?

*is the measure just of improvement, or was degree of improvement in the study? because if i put a cast on my broken leg, or take a motrin, either one improves my condition, yet plainly one option offers greater improvement than the other.

*anti-depressant effects outlast placebo effects.

"when i said addictive i meant physically addictive, most antidepressents produce potentially severe withdrawal symptoms"
all the people i know who've gotten off anti-depressants, got off without withdrawal effects like you're describing. i'm sure the potential for the withdrawal symptoms are there with most of them; yet that doesn't mean every person will suffer that withdrawal.

"also as i said before, taking pills every day only reinforces the notion that there is something wrong with you"
a person may be experiencing issues where they believe that there's something wrong with them if they're depressed. yet that's dependant on the individual psychology of the person, not the anti-depressants themselves.

"and you don't have the ability to deal with life on your own."
it may be true that a person doesn't have the ability to deal with life on their own because they're so depressed. what's wrong with a person being honest with themselves about that?

"there is a much greater sense of accomplishment when you get over depression on your own than when you take a drug. "
i'm sure this is true in many cases.

"when i said it didn't cure the problem i meant that there is no evidence that antidepressents cure depression, it is possible they relieve the symptoms for a while but no solid evidence that they cure or correct the underlying problem. "
hmm, i dont know of any evidence either. yet if this topic hasn't been studied, then that means it's an open question. who knows.

in any case, anti-depressants nevertheless are certainly useful for treating the symptoms of depression.

"especially when there are many less risky and statistcally more affective treatments for depression"
seems like the best thing to do would be combining antidepressants with other methods such as exercise and talk therapy (assuming the person is prepared for antidepressants' side-effects.)


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4836699 - 10/22/05 12:21 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i wil ask my proffesor about the study or check the book, i havent started reading the book yet but its called "your drug may be your problem" and according to my proffessor it's well written.

antidepressents may be useful for treating the symptoms of depression but that by itself doesn't say much. so are many safer things, so why use antidepressents unless absolutely necessary? heroin is an affective treatment of the symptoms of depression yet no doctor would prescribe it.

i dissagree with the idea that the best treatment would be to combine antidepressents with other methods. explain how that would be better than a succesful non drug treatment. according to my proffesor, patients who were givin a combined treatment of antidepressents and psychotherapy had a greater relapse rate than those treated with psychotherapy alone. if cogntive therapy, psychoanalysis, diet changes and exercise and other non drug methods can be as affective or more affective at treating depression than antidepressents, why risk using antidepressents? why alter body and brain chemistry with a drug whose affects are not even fully understood when it might be completely unecessary? my proffesor also said people on antidepressents are more likely to commit murder and homicide and as i mentioned before, 4 time more lilkely to commit suicde. obviously they have the potential to cause some major behavioral changes and i do not see this as a good thing.

there is no real prognosis for people taking antidepressents either. suppose you take the drug and it works, then what are you supposed to do? stop taking it? this leaves the potential or withdrawal or relapse which often promts peopel to go back on the drug. then you have people on drugs for years and years, this obviously less desirable than finding a non drug treatment. i fail to see any good reasons why antidepressents should be used in situations other than as a last resort.

also i didn't mention that most of the studies on antidepressents were done by the drug companies or paid for by the drug companies and corruption has been exposed in the past. according to my professor, when an article appeared about a drug in a medical journal, if the research was paid for by the drug company making the drug the drug was found to be useful 80% of the time but if the research was paid for by a party unrelated to the maker of the drug , the drug was only found affective 20% of the time. yet even the drug companies own studies don't demonstrate a high rate of affectiveness for antidepressents.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help *DELETED* [Re: Deviate]
    #4837084 - 10/22/05 03:30 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by MJF<p>Reason for deletion: wrote that when i was drunk...

although i was sincere...it did come off to harsh


Edited by MJF (10/22/05 11:47 AM)


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4837776 - 10/22/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

come on man, you don't need to be so harsh. Maybe you are really being sincere, and it is because of the Internet that you sound like you are being a prick. Maybe I seem the same way, but I really do want to learn how to improve my life without meds. From your advice there you are telling me that I just need to grow up to get over my problems, maybe so, but SSRI's have helped me, and I do not want to wait 2-3 years with depression just so I can avoid using some sort of medication.
I know I might ignorant, and stubborn, but I am always apprehensive of people over the Internet. I have depression, I have talked to doctors, and I have talked to friends who contradict some of the things people have said. Obviously I am going to believe a doctor over someone over the Internet.

So are you going to tell me how to change my view on life?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4837802 - 10/22/05 11:48 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

what are your views?


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4837844 - 10/22/05 12:06 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have a negative view on the world as a whole, but I have gotten over that. Although I think this world is a cruel and terrible place, my goal in life is to help other people. I feel that if I can help out one person then my life is not in vain. So although I have this negative view of the world I am very optimistic about my life. I look forward to growing up and being able to experience new things, and to continue to make a good impact on this world.


I read about cognitive therapy, and although I understand what it is, I am confused on how it would affect me. I honestly don't know how to change on my views. I feel like I get depressed for no reason.

Just last weekend I was invited to go to a party, as I was driving there I got very depressed. I really have no idea why it happened. I was so excited to go, but then I just felt like I couldn't. I knew that if I went I would have fun, but it felt like I physically just could not go. I ended up driving around for two hours. I still can not figure out why I did not go, I wasn't having negative views on the party, my life, the world. I just felt very depressed.


I am still very interested in the cognitive therapy, I think I will try it. I might wait until the spring though.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4837860 - 10/22/05 12:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

are you sure it was depression you experienced driving around or anxiety?


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4837892 - 10/22/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, I was very depressed. I just felt like shit, I really wanted to die. I know I have anxiety, but I don't think it is really that bad. It used to be a lot worse but I have been able to get over it. I can remember some times when I was real young where I would get depressed for no reason. I am almost positive I did not have any negative views back then, because I was just to young and naive.

could there be subconscious feelings that I don't really know about? That is the only thing I can think of.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4838088 - 10/22/05 01:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Art, outlook on life isnt what i am talking about. It is your viewpoint. It isnt the scenery and whether or not it is pretty, it is the balcony you choose to see it from.... I hope that makes sense somewhat.

I really dont want to come off as pretentious or pseudo-yogi...

What exactly is depression?:
is it an innate emotion? or was it learned?

Depression is purely subjective, IOW it wouldnt exist unless there was something like elation, exuberance, and happiness to measure it against.
How does one become depressed? well, IMO, it is when one drops to a lower emotional state. You felt happy/content/bored/ambivalent and dropped to a lower emotional state, sometimes soul crushing apathy.

You have created (and been conditioned) your idea/goal of what happiness feels like, as well as your idea of what depression feels like. They are just parameters that you have in your mind.
We are dealing with something that is abstract here, even though years and years of false or unfounded datum has personified it for you, gave it substance, almost even active and animate... like it is a virus, and there is nothing you can do but take these special pills (for $29 btw) and hope it passes.

just remember that it is abstract.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4838191 - 10/22/05 01:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think I understand what you are saying, but I am lost as to why my emotional state dropped, or how I can increase my emotional state. My feelings seem to be random. Although I do see the connection between a persons view on life, and emotional state there seems to be something more going on. I have been able to improve my feelings in the past, but I still can not seem to control them. Like going to that party a week ago. The night before, I went to a party and had a great time, then for no reason I was depressed, and feeling terrible.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4838293 - 10/22/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

*in reply to the thread starter*

dont take this rudely anyone, but, you dont have much to complain about. even though you're emotionally unstable, thats partly to your own undoing. because 1. you loathe pyschiatrists, if you're really that depressed see one. 2. your a pessemist. you wouldnt be depressed if you werent pessemistic. and what do u have to complain about? theres people all around the world that dont have a fraction of what you do, dont have a chance to go to college and work shitty dead end jobs. you've got life going for you. the rest of the world should be depressed if anything. and you're complaining? dont take this as an insult or anything though. just learn to respect what you have and what you can become and what is around you.

im sure you do respect alot of things though, and you probably realize this. but u see, if u REALLY realized how shitty life can be, you would think of yourself happy right now. so, in my opinion, you need to start revaluating your morals. it'll be epic like the oddyssey.

see thats whats wrong with just about every westernized culture. we have so much but cant even be happy with our selves. im not saying that life is all about material. just google maslows hierarchy of needs and think, why am i depressed again? remember, life goes on.


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Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (10/22/05 03:06 PM)


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #4838393 - 10/22/05 03:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think that is true. I am very grateful for what I have, yet I still get depressed. It is that thought of, if you are depressed about a decent life than you are not grateful, that really made me depressed.


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Offlineswiftrance
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4838491 - 10/22/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i cant tell you how many times ive typed a reply in this thread only to close the window and say forget it.

truth is i am very torn on why it is i feel the way i do. i really think about this alot and try to view it from all angles. is it my self image? the music i listen to? my friends or lack there of? the games i play or the websites i visit? can it be chemical, can i ignore it? am i really depressed or is this just how i feel relative to summer vacation. god i dont know. i feel theres so much to think about ill never have enough time to get through it all.

but i have things i have to get done now. today. i cant wait for my answers to come. i need to be getting to class, keeping my grades up. taking care of myself, hygiene. staying positive when i could just as easily begin to isolate.

ive been taking lexapro 10mg for over a week now and ive felt better because of it. not significantly and i know it takes 3-4weeks, but it gives me a little peace of mind knowing that i am doing something about the way i feel.

i wish i had more to say, thank you all for your thoughts. its been an interesting read
-hunter


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4838669 - 10/22/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am real happy for you, and I hope the lexapro will continue to work.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4838843 - 10/22/05 06:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
where did you get your information deviate? I have never heard of anyone getting addicted to SSRI's, I even asked my doctors about that and they have never heard of that either. The reason people kill themselves after taking SSRI's is due to there increase in energy, a sign of improvement. If a person has a high risk, then they are evaluated throughout the first couple of weeks. Again with the crack, SSRI's are not addicting, and will not kill you! From what everyone else has been saying, SSRI's just release serotonin, so then how can they not be effective if everyone will see an improvement? I am not sure if that is true but i will find out next Friday.



"Art....how are we supposed to tell you how to change your perception? We don't know what it is you're thinking (saying to yourself) that is making you depressed. What kind of negative thoughts about life do you have?"

That is my problem with your theory, I don't think I have any negative thoughts about life. I will try and try and describe my thoughts though. Maybe I am just missing something. I have a negative view on the world as a whole, but I have gotten over that. Although I think this world is a cruel and terrible place, my goal in life is to help other people. I feel that if I can help out one person then my life is not in vain. So although I have this negative view of the world I am very optimistic about my life. I look forward to growing up and being able to experience new things, and to continue to make a good impact on this world.




Do you know what the acronym stands for? Selective Serotonin Re uptake Inhibitor. It doesn't let it release...it keeps it from being sucked back up. Flooding the brain with it almost. You can find ways to increase your serotonin level without the use of these pills...and yes they definitely can be psychology addictive especially after years of use.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: MJF]
    #4838879 - 10/22/05 06:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

all I am saying is that if SSRI's increase your serotonin level with everyone, then how can 2/3 of the people not see results? I don't know if I am missing something here but that does not seem right.


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OfflineMJF
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4838926 - 10/22/05 06:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

maybe because it really is something more than just the chemicals flowing


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4839052 - 10/22/05 07:36 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

art said:
where did you get your information deviate? I have never heard of anyone getting addicted to SSRI's, I even asked my doctors about that and they have never heard of that either. The reason people kill themselves after taking SSRI's is due to there increase in energy, a sign of improvement. If a person has a high risk, then they are evaluated throughout the first couple of weeks. Again with the crack, SSRI's are not addicting, and will not kill you! From what everyone else has been saying, SSRI's just release serotonin, so then how can they not be effective if everyone will see an improvement? I am not sure if that is true but i will find out next Friday.





i get my information from my psych proffesor, the internet and my personal experience with SSRIs. if youre doctors said no one got addicted they meant people don't become addicted to the "high", it doesn't mean there is no physical withdrawal. do a google search for "SSRI withdrawal". where do you get your information from? this statement sounds pretty strange to me "The reason people kill themselves after taking SSRI's is due to there increase in energy, a sign of improvement" why would an increase in energy cause people to kill themselves? because they were lazy to do it before?


also, as was said they dont release seretonin they prevent the reuptake and your body responds to this by producing less seretonin. people on antidepressents were found to have lower levels of seretonin than normal people.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4839743 - 10/22/05 11:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Because one of the symptoms of depression is apathy, when people are very depressed they might have a suicide plan but just be to apathetic, and tired to act on it. Once they start taking the SSRI's they start getting more energy but can still be depressed, allowing for them to commit suicide.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4839971 - 10/23/05 12:02 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i see. well personally i don't buy that explanation because as i said earlier i experienced suicide ideation while on effexor and it had nothing to do with apathy, nor was it an immediate affect (id been taking them for months). i suddenly felt an overwhelming feeling that life was not worth living and that there was no hope and my only option was to end it. luckily i managed to convince myself that it was just the drug messing with me and so i didnt go through with it but ive never experienced such a strong pull toward suicide while off medication no matter how depressed i was. i honestly believe the drugs can mess with your brain chemistry in a way that can make it much harder to see the bright side of living and this is major for the increased suicide risk. of course that's just my opinion though. how do you explain the increased murder rate? they were also too lazy to commit murder before taking the medication? i mean its possible i hardly think its an adequate explanation.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: swiftrance]
    #4840136 - 10/23/05 12:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

swiftrance said:
i cant tell you how many times ive typed a reply in this thread only to close the window and say forget it.

truth is i am very torn on why it is i feel the way i do. i really think about this alot and try to view it from all angles. is it my self image? the music i listen to? my friends or lack there of? the games i play or the websites i visit? can it be chemical, can i ignore it? am i really depressed or is this just how i feel relative to summer vacation. god i dont know. i feel theres so much to think about ill never have enough time to get through it all.

but i have things i have to get done now. today. i cant wait for my answers to come. i need to be getting to class, keeping my grades up. taking care of myself, hygiene. staying positive when i could just as easily begin to isolate.

ive been taking lexapro 10mg for over a week now and ive felt better because of it. not significantly and i know it takes 3-4weeks, but it gives me a little peace of mind knowing that i am doing something about the way i feel.

i wish i had more to say, thank you all for your thoughts. its been an interesting read
-hunter




just do stuff you enjoy and realize your life is good. theres always going to things in this world that suck or put you down. theres always obstacles. theres always something to fuck your day up. just acknowledge it. dont make a big deal. just deal with it. dont hold it all inside of you. talk freely but not negativley. be yourself.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #4841147 - 10/23/05 11:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

wow, I haven't heard of anything like that caused directly by an anti-depressant. Is effexor a SSRI?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4841318 - 10/23/05 12:37 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

yes and there are lots of cases of SSRIs causing that type of thing. just do a google search. you don't seem have to researched antidepressents that well.


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OfflineMoxemerald
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4843520 - 10/23/05 09:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Art, how can you not know why you are getting randomly depressed. Are you not aware of your thoughts at all?

I'm about ready to give up here because we've explained it about a thousand times.

You say you were driving up to your friends house and you were very happy/excited and then all of a sudden you got depressed. You have to know why this is... your thoughts are clear as day unless you are in denial about your irrational fears and anxieties.

what is going on in your head at these times.

Next time you get 'randomly' depressed, stop. stop and think about what happened. you weren't depressed and your thoughts were focused around variable x. then think about what those thoughts snowballed or flew into and why this made you depressed. write it down if you have to. If you do this, then all of us here will have a way easier time understanding this whole thing.

Good luck and, honestly, I really hope you don't buy into the governments drugs.


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Offlineart
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Moxemerald]
    #4843777 - 10/23/05 10:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am sorry if I seem naive, which maybe I am, but I honestly don't know what thoughts caused me to become depressed. Maybe there are some thoughts which I am just not paying attention to. Is it not also possible that there is such thing as a chemical imbalance? I am telling you the truth when I say that I have no idea what caused me to become like that.
Anyways, I have took peoples advice, and looked into alternative methods of dealing with depression. I am not sure what exactly I am going to do yet, but hopefully I will find something.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: art]
    #4844603 - 10/24/05 03:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

the way i see the psyche there is very little possibility there is such a thing as "chemical imbalance" that doesn't have an underlying cause. i am not denying the fact that your neurochemistry plays a roll in how you feel, for example if you take a bunch of cocaine one day and then you feel depressed the next day you could say this was because of the chemical imbalance you created when you altered your brain chemistry with the cocaine. similarly a poor diet, lack of exercise, negative thinking and other bad habbits can all contribute to poor mood and mental state which corresponds to a chemical imbalance in your brain. the point here is that the chemical imbalance is the effect and not the cause. when you balance your psyche the chemicals in your brain will also balance and not the other way around. if you seek to balance the chemicals in your brain while ignoring your mind, youre brain will simply repsond by producing less of whatever chemicals you added to it.

according to my psychology proffesor there is simply no evidence that people become depressed for no reason at all (like a chemical imbalance that randomly occurs beyond there control). as common as depression is in today's society, there is no reason to think all these cases of depression are due to chemical imbalances that can only be corrected with drugs or that that is the cause in your case.

according to freud and all psychologists who practise psychoanalysis, what is unconciousness doesn't change, in order to change it, it must become conciousness (interestingly this correlates extremely well with what they teach in buddhism and other spiritual teachings). so we have unconciouss psychological issues which cause us to unknowingly work against ourselves and this manifests as negative feelings consciousness. the only way to end this process is to become more consciouss, more aware, to know ourselves better. taking antidepressents doesn't aid in this process.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: Deviate]
    #4844901 - 10/24/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

this view that analysis provides a cure that antidepressants doesnt is part of the illusion of a mind-body split.

the brain is[i/] the combination of its chemicals, neurons etc.

i think it makes more sense to say that when serotonin increases, an issue is resolved. when serotonin falls, an issue is created. the idea that analysis works on something that drugs don't is inconsistent with the fact that both alleviate symptoms of depression in whichever patient either treatment is effective with.

Quote:

there is simply no evidence that people become depressed for no reason



yet there is evidence that a person's base level of happiness is largely determined by predisposition/genetics, with temporary deviations being provided through the buffets of fortune.

why is it impossible to think that a person can be born with dysthymia or depression? and that antidepressants could never help such a person?

not every treatment works for every person. many scentists claim that psychotherapy is more likely to work with YAVIS individuals - those who are young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, successful. furthermore, antidepressants are cheaper than many other treatments.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4845029 - 10/24/05 09:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

Pyjamas said:
Are you honestly saying that one shouldn't seek attention and take up smoking crack because it can help deal with depression, yet at the same time drugs can mask the problem?

Depression *IS* a disease and it's rampant. Just because it can't spread like the flu doesn't mean that it isn't a "disease" as you might think it. Try telling someone with a chemical imbalance that their depression is as a result of lack of will power and motivation. It's a result of depression, not the cause.

The best advice i can offer you swift is to try and develop simple routines and stick to them as best you can for as long as possible. Having a plan of action is a great way to get through the day when you are so used to waking up and not really thinking about what's coming next. Eat as healthily as possible. Try and get plenty of fresh air and exercise when you can. Go for short 10-15 minute walks listening to some good music.
Don't get me wrong, your depression isn't just gonna vanish like that but the simplest little things help from what I've seen.

Try this for a few weeks and if you feel better, maybe then would be a good time to talk to someone anonymously about what help you can get to reduce this problem in the future.

Take my word for it, don't start taking stuff like crack. Maybe lay off the drugs altogether. You're young, there'll be plenty of time for that stuff later on. The sheer fact that you mentioned crack psilocyberin makes my blood boil. <b>You idiot! </b>The last thing someone with depression needs is a severe addiction that will only make more problems and at the same time not solve any.

Self absorbed my fucking ass.




why do you so vehemently attack my viewpoint on this, going as far as flaming (reference-- "you idiot!" in above post)? would not a simple dissent have done the job?.......

I never gave any advice to go smoke crack. I dont wish for anyone to smoke crack, especially to "cure" their problems. I know it helps your rant/argument out to villify me, but lets try keep this as civil as possible while not losing the big picture that is "we have all posted within this forum to help swiftrance".

I urge all of you to go truly do some research about this subject...please. True unbiased research, think about it "logically and rationally", ask the simple questions like "what are the statistics and percentage of Americans with depression?".
I could go on and give you mounds of such info, but i dont want to derail this thread, i wish for the focus to remain on swiftrance and his problem.

Swiftrance, please dont just accept that you are a biological and genetical "victim", atleast go research and question exactly what proof there is out there, because i read pages upon pages of newsworthy articles from reputable sources, trying to find someone with concrete proof of the cause of depression.

You were given an easy way out, someone else justifying your misery for you, and you hopped on the answer, without ever questioning it.
Have you read reports, studies, findings current and old which talk about the cause or validity of "chemical imbalance"?

"chemical imbalance" is merely a theory to the cause of depression... why? because it hasnt been proven. There are plenty of other ideas and theories as to the cause of "depression" and i urge you to atleast entertain these other possibilities before trying to find happiness in a bottle, nor is it in a crack pipe.

***back to you pyjamas*** check out the addiction stats on anti-depressants, mood modifyers, amphetamines and anti-psychotics. Maybe even attempt to study some of this information yourself before you attempt to give life altering/scientific advice on a subject you arent learned on.

I am not doing this for fun, nor to be an asshole, nor to stir up shit, nor to argue. I simply feel that there are alternative solutions and various ways of getting at the root of depression, and I want it to be heard because I care just as much as the rest of the people on this thread about "depression" and the people whom are affected by it.




Not to mention the money behind pharmacuticel companies. These doctors are in too.

Set atainable goals and work towards them each time you reach a goal thats self satisfaction. The more you keep doing this the more you acomplish the less time you have wasted self loathing and being introverted. Its ok to be introverted sometimes. But maybe it be good for you to go out and chit chat with some random person. Talking about them only. Learn about others learn to comunicate and reach out. You reap what you sow. You are the master of your mind. Dont let random thoughts control who you are. Cuz you are YOU! not what your thoughts may think you as.

I cant stress enough dont beat yourself up over the thoughts in your mind. Your mind isnt what defines us its our actions and what we have done with our lives. Work Work for the good of all and make yourself happy.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4845524 - 10/24/05 12:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crunchytoast said:
this view that analysis provides a cure that antidepressants doesnt is part of the illusion of a mind-body split.

the brain is the combination of its chemicals, neurons etc.




And this view provides one with an uncontrollable "chemical destiny"... Do you really think that all of our actions and emotions are controlled by chemicals in your brain.

Quote:

there is simply no evidence that people become depressed for no reason
yet there is evidence that a person's base level of happiness is largely determined by predisposition/genetics, with temporary deviations being provided through the buffets of fortune.

why is it impossible to think that a person can be born with dysthymia or depression? and that antidepressants could never help such a person?




Like I said before, depression and happiness are subjective. Genetics play absolutly no role in feelings and emotions.
What if someone was miserable and depressed because they werent a millionaire and a movie star? would you tell them they need antidepressants, or to get a better grasp on reality?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4845992 - 10/24/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have a thought that Depression runs through families because of the conditioned communication they use and were also taught by their parents the generation before.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4845993 - 10/24/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Genetics most certainly play a role in emotions and feelings. There is ample evidence showing increases in the rates of "psychological disorders" among relatives of those that suffer from these conditions.

Anecdotally as I grow older I find myself becoming more and more "like my dad". Obviously, environment plays a role but in spite of this you can often see how somone can act like his/her parents or display their personality traits.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4845997 - 10/24/05 02:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So certain people really are doomed then? And the rest would be the "chosen ones"?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4845999 - 10/24/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

How do you account for people that grew up in abusive house holds...and most likely should turn out crazy and fucked up....but are actually bright and happy people who contribute something positive to the world?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846017 - 10/24/05 02:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Genetics is only one aspect of this "multifactorial" disorder. The other major "Factor" that is usually focused upon is environment.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846028 - 10/24/05 02:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

so have they actually isolated the depressed gene?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846070 - 10/24/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No.

For such a complex process (e.g. emotional thoughts/affect), it is likely a combination of MANY genes. In addition the interaction and timing of when particular genese are "turned on" or off during development is also crucial.

There are specific genes however that probably play more dominant roles than others. For instance, there is a genetic polymorphism (e.g. genetic difference)in the serotonin transporter. Humans inherit either the "long" or "short" allele of the transporter. There was a recent study done showing that the rates of depression among a group of individuals were correlated to two things: 1. which allele the person had, AND 2. "adverse life event".

In sum the study found that rates of depression were highest among people who had BOTH: a specific genetic makeup AND were exposed to adverse life events. A nice illustration of the interplay between genetics and environment.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846085 - 10/24/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds pretty speculative.

Even if it was genetic what would be the benefit of using drugs as your only treatment? Yeah maybe they make us think that we are better....but there is just something not natural about it. Are depressed pill eaters going to start making more depressed baby children that will have to take drugs their whole life too?

Reminds me of creepy futuristic movies.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846097 - 10/24/05 02:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Also....the onset of depression usually occurs around the same time for everyone that gets it, right? Shouldn't this hint more towards environmental factors (events that affected our self-talk)?

Or are there ticking depression genes waiting to explode?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846127 - 10/24/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Actually the study was published in Science. Arguably the most competitive and respected peer reviewed publications around.

The fact that depression has been linked to genetic causes doesn't do much int he way of treatment options. What it does do however, is lend support to a "chemical imbalance" as the underlying cause of depression.

Ideally one wouldn't use drugs as their only treatment. However, it is unfortunate that many people lack the resources to get adequate help. Like it or not, there simply aren't enough psychiatrists to help people struggling with depression. Few can afford houlry visits several times per week. In light of this we are faced with the option of letting someone continue to be depressed, or treat him/her with medication. From my understanding, most people who are clinically depressed live a nearly agonizing life. If a pill could help me deal with it, I'd give it a try considering the alternative (stay depressed).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846137 - 10/24/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Are you sure they used the word cause? I'm guessing they used the word correlation (or atleast they should have).


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846144 - 10/24/05 03:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Pills can send someone into an even worse state than before...especially if not probably diagnosed.


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4846173 - 10/24/05 03:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You are correct, they made the correlation.

Normally this leads to a "Chicken or the egg" type of situation: (e.g. did a change in the brain cause depression? or did depression cause the change in the brain?)

However, since (in this specific case) the serotonin transporter is inherited and present from birth the correlation suggests that it is involved. The direct involvement however is speculative(e.g. decreased function of a transporter leads to a compensatory increase in an alternative neurotransmnitter, which leads to another compensatory change and so on and so on.).


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4846315 - 10/24/05 03:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Transporter? Would you mind going into further detail about these genes and what they do?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4854527 - 10/26/05 12:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, just so you know, the pubmed link to the article which I am referring to is HERE.
Unfortunately you need institutional access and/or a subscrption to get the full text (e.g. be at a university or other type of research facility where access is available).

Since I have no idea of your background or familiarity with neurobiology I'll give you the simplest version of how I interpreted the paper.

As you may know, neurons fire when a threshold "stimulus" is received. This causes a neuron to "fire" and results in the release of a neurotransmitter which can then act on it's representative target. In order to stop the signal however, the presence of the neurotransmitter must be removed. There are multiple ways to do this but one way is simply to take the neurotransmitter back into the presynaptic neuron. In the case of serotonin, serotonin is taken back up into the cell after is has been released. This occurs via the "serotonin transporter". This is also the target of SSRI's, e.g. you can prevent the reuptake of serotonin by blocking the serotonin transporter. The result will be an increase in serotonin.

Not surprisingly, the serotonin transporter (referred to as: 5-HTT) is encoded for by a gene; the 5-HTT gene. If you dive into DNA replication (transcription, translation etc.) you will learn that genes usually have "promoters" (or promoter regions) which, as the name suggests "promotes" the transcription or expression of the gene.

Humans have been shown to have two types of genes encoding the serotonin transporter. They are designated as the "short" (s) and "long" (l) types. The "short" gene is associated with a LOWER transcriptional efficacy, that is, the gene is not transcribed/translated as easily (e.g. it is not expressed as much).

So, in this study they looked at two populations of people; those with the "s" allele and those with the "l". What they found, was that a persons genetic makeup influenced their propensity to develop depression resulting from "adverse" life events. In summary they came to the conclusion that:

1. Having the "s" allele does not necessarily lead to depression
2. Experiencing "Adverse life events" does not necessarily lead to depression. HOWEVER...

3. Having BOTH the "s" allele AND experiencing adverse life events would increase the incidence of depression relative to those having either factor alone.

4. Conversly, people with the "l" are not destined for happiness, but they may be better able to deal with lifes stressors.

Basically, reaffirming the thought of genetics and environment play a role in the onset of this affective disorder.

As with any published study there are bound to be critques/criticsim's. However, as I stated in an earlier post this was published in Science, arguably, the best research journal in the world.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4854994 - 10/26/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)


this view that analysis provides a cure that antidepressants doesnt is part of the illusion of a mind-body split.


how so? that's like saying there's no difference in getting over a break up with a significant other by drinking yourself into obvlivion or by realizing you don't need to dwell on the past.

the brain is[i/] the combination of its chemicals, neurons etc.

i think it makes more sense to say that when serotonin increases, an issue is resolved. when serotonin falls, an issue is created. the idea that analysis works on something that drugs don't is inconsistent with the fact that both alleviate symptoms of depression in whichever patient either treatment is effective with.


i don't agree, there is a difference between conscioussly recognizing a psychological problem and eliminating it and taking a drug to raise your mood despite the problem. at any rate, one treatment is riskier and more side affect prone than the other, even if the end result is the same.


yet there is evidence that a person's base level of happiness is largely determined by predisposition/genetics, with temporary deviations being provided through the buffets of fortune.

why is it impossible to think that a person can be born with dysthymia or depression? and that antidepressants could never help such a person?


i never made either of those claims. i simply stated that the evidence suggests antidepressents are one of the most dangerous treatments and not much more affective than placebo. why is it impossible to think that a person could overcome depression without taking drugs? antidepressents aren't indicated for long term use anyway, so if someone is truly born with depression they are not a good candidate for antidepressents.

not every treatment works for every person. many scentists claim that psychotherapy is more likely to work with YAVIS individuals - those who are young, attractive, verbal, intelligent, successful. furthermore, antidepressants are cheaper than many other treatments.

again, this doesn't refute any of the things i said against antidepressents. i am not saying there are no cases in which antidepressents could be benefit a person, i am saying that i do not agree with the way they are currently being used. prescribed to almost anyone who goes to the doctor saying theyve been feeling depressed or anxious lately. what i don't agree with is the philosophy that as soon as you feel something unpleasant, it means you have a chemical imbalance and the solution is a pill. this a dangerous and irresponsible philosophy to promote and yet it is exactly what the drug companies are doing. are you shy? you need paxil. feel a little nervous? ask your doctor about celexa. feeling down lately? well we've invented a miracle pill called wellbutrin. can you not see the harm in this type of thinking? it completely denies all personal responsibility. any feeling you have can now be blaimed on chemical imbalance. are you lazy? well its not your fault, you must have been born with an imbalance that makes you lazy. in my experience taking SSRIs did nothing to help me with shyness, anxiety or depression. yet consciously recognizing the underlying psychological causes of these feelings completely elimiated them. how do you explain that? did i have a chemical or did i not? if not how do we tell who truly has a chemical and needs medication and who just needs to make a greater effort in their daily life? there is no test for a chemical imbalance. psychiatrists simply obverse your behavior and then inform you that you must have a chemical imbalance. compare it to antibiotics for instance. if you tell a doctor youve been feeling sick does he simply infer that you need an antibiotic and write a prescription? no! because its recognized that giving antibiotics to people who dont need them is bad, doctors make an effort to do biological tests to show that people actually have a condition that demands antibiotics before simply prescribing them at will.


Edited by Deviate (10/26/05 02:53 PM)


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4855137 - 10/26/05 03:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:Humans have been shown to have two types of genes encoding the serotonin transporter. They are designated as the "short" (s) and "long" (l) types. The "short" gene is associated with a LOWER transcriptional efficacy, that is, the gene is not transcribed/translated as easily (e.g. it is not expressed as much).




Does the person with the "short" 5-HTT produce less serotonin, or does it affect the reuptake of the serotonin?


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4855416 - 10/26/05 04:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am not sure, but I don't think SSRI's work for everyone, so if you do not have a chemical imbalance than they will not work. I only base this off of the fact that when I went to my doctors they said that if Lexapro did not work that we would try something else. I think that is why doctors are so easy to give out SSRI's. Most of the real bad side effects are very rare, and just about every medication I know has rare side effects.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4855814 - 10/26/05 05:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:

Does the person with the "short" 5-HTT produce less serotonin, or does it affect the reuptake of the serotonin?




Good question, and to be honest I don't know the answer (or if anyone does conclusively). However, I would approach the question with two scenarios. Both are based upon "homeostasis" or simply, the body wanting to be "normal" (and have "normal" serotonin levels).

1. We could assume these people have less transporters. This would result in more serotonin (5-HT) in the synapse. Thus, a person would need "less" serotonin.

2. We could assume the transporter is dysfunctional and thus, the neuron has little serotonin (because it is not being taken back into the neuron). Thus, the body may actually produce more serotonin.

a third (and perhaps more likely) scenario focuses on the production of the gene in response to stimuli. I am not sure if this genetic variability effects the actual function of the transporter. Rather, the variants may differ only in the ability to translate/transcribe the transporter. So imagine the following scenario which again, focuses on this concept of homeostasis:

"A person faces an adverse life event. This causes them to be depressed. To combat the depression the body may say: "we need more serotonin stimulation". Sooooo, to get more serotonin, it has to be taken back in, at a greater rate. To do this, the neurons synthesize more transporters. More transporters = more serotonin.

However....since people with the "short" allele have difficulty increasing the transcription/translation of the transporter they are more susceptible to the stress. This scenario would seem to agree with the authors.

Keep in mind though, ALL of the above is my simple speculation. The finding seemed to be significant enough that they could publish it without speculation as to "how" the genetic variation may have led to an increase in depression.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4856437 - 10/26/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

can we even measure serotonin levels?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4858361 - 10/27/05 07:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Theoretically yes, we can measure serotonin levels. As a practical matter however, it is not done in humans. Rather, we use laboratory animals. Some of the procedures are terminal (lethal). For instance, the microdialysis experiments I do in rats. Not something you'd get a lot of volunteers for.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4859056 - 10/27/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

So how do we know then depression is the result of serotonin levels if it isn't even measured in humans?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: TameMe]
    #4862379 - 10/28/05 02:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

because, if they told you that since YOU caused depression and YOU (and only you) can cure it, how would they sell you drugs?

Even the pro-imbalance people have all stated that "if anything, it is a combination of chemical imbalance and emotional trauma".
It doesnt make sense at all... how could one person be GENETICALLY predispositioned to handle traumatic events worse than your "Average" person?
the severity of traumatic events is 100% relative to your personal understanding of existance.
Some people might think that breaking a nail, or getting resin on a nice sweater is a highly traumatic event.
YOU ARE NOT THE CHEMICALS IN YOUR BRAIN!


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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4862609 - 10/28/05 06:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, much of the evidence is relatively indirect: Decreased levles of serotonin metabolites in the urine of depressed patients, changes in receptor number/localization in postmortem autopsies etc. (I don't have my references with me at the moment). Another argument for the role of serotonin comes from the drugs themselves. SSRI's bind the serotonin transporter and increase serotonin in the synapse, when this happens depression is usually relieved. Also, there are drugs such as reserpine, which cause a massive depletion of serotonin and monamines. Reserpine can cause depression in otherwise healthy individuals.

As for being genetically predispositioned, you can see the above reference I posted or think about it anecdotally. We inherit physical traits from our parents. In addition, we also inherit personality traits (you may act like your father, or be a jerk like your mom etc.). Why is it so hard to believe you cannot inherit a genetic predisposition to depression?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: badchad]
    #4863103 - 10/28/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Do you really think that you can inherit the asshole gene from your parents?
You dont think that maybe if your dad is an asshole, and your mom is a lush, that by living with them, and having them set all personal examples and moral precedents for you, that you would have a good chance of becoming...say... an alchoholic asshole?

and for the millionth time, XTC, meth, and crack all affect seratonin and dopamine levels in the brain, and can alleviate depression as easily as any SSRI.

Go back and read the rest of this thread.... we have already covered much of this in detail.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: depressed =( going to doctor tomorrow for help [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4863895 - 10/28/05 03:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

^yup. except that SSRIs are long acting and crack is short acting there is no difference between taking either of those drug for depression. both impair normal brain functioning and both cause the brain to respond or compensate for their affect and thus CAUSE chemical imbalances rather than fixing them. if taking a an SSRI causes the brain to respond by producing less seretonin (in fact depressed patients on SSRIs were found to have even lower levels of seretonin than non medicated patients), then how does that help anything beyond the initiual overload of serotonin? antidepressents aren't indictated for use longer than 6 months yet most of the people i know who take them have been doing so for years. when you are on drugs long term like that it is not even possible to determine whether they are helping since 80% of severely depressed patients recover in 2 years regardless of treatment. if depression is truly caused a genetic chemical imbalance why is it that so many people recover from it without drugs? how is that possible if they have an imbalance?

depression is not primarily a physical disease, therefore it should be treated a physical disease.


Edited by Deviate (10/28/05 09:54 PM)


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