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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 1,026
Post deleted by users_request
    #479000 - 12/04/01 01:02 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleJoshua
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Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,398
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479014 - 12/04/01 01:35 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Pardon my stupidity, but what do you mean by exclusive? Is someone offering you strains that they have exclusive access to? If you offer them for sale doesn't that make them non-exclusive. How would someone have access to an exclusive strain?

I think if there were an exclusive strain, that the exclusivity of the strain should be decided by the strain holder, if the holder is willing to depart from exclusivity then by all means share the strain.

Joshua



--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

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"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Joshua]
    #479028 - 12/04/01 01:49 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisible40oz
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Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 30,119
Loc: Sandy Eggo. Ca.
Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479072 - 12/04/01 03:05 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

you should take it up with the company.

remember the ralphster, workman dispute?


--------------------
:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: 40oz]
    #479094 - 12/04/01 03:49 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisible40oz
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479111 - 12/04/01 05:07 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

i wont comment on the ralphster, workman issue....

all ill say is,
i dont think its a matter of ego...i think its a matter of respect.


--------------------
:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479128 - 12/04/01 05:41 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

The term "exclusive" is total b.s..When I buy a new strain,the first thing I do is grow it out and make 20 or 30 prints.Those are prints that I made from my fruits.Any vendor that thinks he has any right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my spores that dropped from my fruits,is delusional,and is being "disrespectful" to the entire mushroom community.The vendor lost the right to call that strain "exclusive" the minute he sold the first print or syringe.

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Invisiblejim2
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Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 204
Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479148 - 12/04/01 06:28 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

if you buy a cow, and the cow has a calf, does the guy who sold you the cow have any rights to any milk that the calf might produce in the future? as soon as any spores were sold for profit it's not exclusive any more. sell the exclusive strain.

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OfflinepsilocyberV
old hand

Registered: 06/08/99
Posts: 1,839
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479149 - 12/04/01 06:29 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisible40oz
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Re: [Re: jim2]
    #479169 - 12/04/01 07:19 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

i think these pop spore vendors / spore whores need to obtain their own "exclusive" strains and quit stealing other vendors "exclusive" strains that THEY BROUGHT to the market....spore whores are gonna kill it for real...
have you ever heard:
"dont bite the hand that feeds you"


--------------------
:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."

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Invisiblejim2
enthusiast
Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 204
Re: [Re: 40oz]
    #479206 - 12/04/01 08:04 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

no vender owns the rights to any strain. did they INVENT these mushrooms? did they do anything more than acquire some spore prints grow them out and sell the resulting spores? where do they get the spores for the other strains they sell? aren't the other strains somebody else's EXCLUSIVE strain? wouldn't that make them spore whores, for stealing somebody else's acquired strain? if a spore vender wants an exclusive strain he better do a little genetic work and make sure any mushrooms that a grown from HIS spore prints are sterile, as soon as a vender sells the first spores he doesn't own them anymore, he took the money and sold the rights. these venders who think they OWN these strains should realize they're not god, they didn't create the mushrooms. even if they did a little selective breeding, once they sell the spores they're not theirs anymore. if they feel they're not getting the money for the amount of work that went into them, charge more from the start. by your way of thinking, any vender that sells spores other than the ones he brought to market is a spore whore, well we sure have alot of whores around here

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Invisible40oz
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Re: [Re: jim2]
    #479269 - 12/04/01 09:41 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

technically speaking...no they dont have "ownership" rights...
but...
if the supplier of the "exclusive" strains, keeps getting assed out by spore whores, the supplier will either,
1. charge an arm or a leg....or
2. say fuck this and not sell them at all...

....either way they are still fuct...

so then what?

we are going to have a shitload of spore whores selling senesant strains (eventually)....

i think spore whores are parasitic to the vendors who actually put forth into introducing the "exclusives."
.......all for $$ & greed.

wheres the morality?
wheres the respect to what these vendors do for the community?

i think its pretty fuct up if u ask me.



--------------------
:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."

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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479310 - 12/04/01 10:30 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Try being original!!

I personally dont see anything wrong with one vendor buying prints from another vendor, growing them out in a controlled environment and producing prints. Its going to happen eventually regardless. Many of these new vendors dont have sources for obtaining new and original specimans so there going to get them from the general OMC anyway.

What I hate seeing is people getting prints from random growers or trading rings and vendor X growing these out and sells them, really not knowing 100% of it is indeed the original strain.
Do you know how many stories i've read here and emails I've received of ppl forgetting which jars were which after inoculation. Or how many growers grow 2 or 3 different cubs in the same terranium which leads to spores from all different strains drifting all over each other. Yet that grower takes prints and sends them out in trades etc....
Can that vendor say with 100% assurence its is indeed strain X from Thailand etc.... when he did not grow out a print from a reputable vendor or source for this strain x?

I did not follow the drama between Workman and Ralphster so I really cant comment on that. But I will say that for years many of us online were patiently waiting for a real mexicana to show up and produce fruits that would drop spores.
Workman grew out so many different so called p. mexicana's over the years hoping to bring this to the OMC. And how many false claims did he run into ?? Many !! Personally I feel out of props and respect he deserved exclusive rights to that strain at least for a year. Of course there is no way to enforce it, its just done out of respect.
Just my opinion on this matter.

As for the ps. samuiensis there were a lot more prints brought back then just what MJ brought back from Thailand.
I have raw video footage and pictures along with many spore prints of "them" REdiscovering the samuiensis in Thailand this past summer. I've been sitting on the prints for a while now but as soon as I have the pics processed and posted and some streaming video ready, you can all see the parents of these samuiensis from Thailand this summer....and hey... MJ is in some of the video... je je je ...Although note MJ was not the one who RE discovered it this summer but he certainly brought a fair share of prints back to share with OMC.


MicronMagik, I say do what your heart tells you is right.
Hopefully you got this strain directly from a vendor and grew it out yourself.


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com

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Invisiblejim2
enthusiast
Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 204
Re: [Re: 40oz]
    #479322 - 12/04/01 10:35 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

more venders=competition
competition=lower prices=better customer service=new products
venders get new products to gain an edge over their competition, which equals more money for them. it's all about the money, every one who sells spores wants the money.

wheres the respect to what these vendors do for the community?
what do they actually do? answer questions from time to time? isn't that part of customer service? advertising?

if we get rid of the spore whores, how long before the prices of spores skyrocket? if you can't get them anywhere else, the vender can charge whatever he wants. how often do you think you'd see new strains without competition? why get new strains if they can take your money by selling you the same tired strains over and over. get rid of the competition and you'll see higher prices, less variety. with competition a vender has to work for your money, with competition ever customer becomes important. if a vender retains exclusive rights to a strain, he can charge whatever he wants for it, if ever vender has that strain also, quality, customer service, price become the selling points

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Anonymous

Re: [Re: 40oz]
    #479329 - 12/04/01 10:39 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Here at the SporeLab, we see both sides of the coin. On one hand, we carry PF's Matias Romero strain. We don't brag about it or advertise it but it is listed on our webpage. I feel that it has been around long enough to become part of the mainstream, heck, it's been around longer than any strain!

On the other hand, we also carry a couple 'exclusive' strains, so called because we brought these strains to the table and are the only ones offerering them. Obviously, through the passage of time, they too will enter the mainstream when realized as a good product by other vendors, at which time they will no longer be 'exclusive', they will be 'some other advertising hype' term.

This is to be expected and that is why we are always working to bring new 'exclusive' strains from around the world...blah..blah...blah. There's another one coming soon...

Out of respect for the vendors who introduce new strains, etc. we like to wait a year or so before contemplating picking up other vendors products. There is a certain amount of work involved in introducing these new strains, sometimes a lot of work, just ask Workman and this should be acknowledged and respected.

What I don't like to see are 'copy-cat' vendors who offer nothing new, just what they can leech off others. It's too bad we couldn't have little patents or something on the strains we bring. Or maybe we could throw all the strains and vendors names in hats and draw for 'exclusive' strains'...

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Invisiblejim2
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Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 204
Re: [Re: ]
    #479341 - 12/04/01 10:45 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

good points max, with the very nature of mushrooms, you automatically get 2-3 months when it's exclusive. other venders have to grow them out. they can't get around that.

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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479538 - 12/04/01 01:12 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's very simple. You buy a print from Hawk for example, regardless of the strain, he has no exclusive rights to it. On the other hand, buy a culture from Fungi Perfecti and he sure as hell does. What's the difference? Buying a strain from Paul Stamets is also buying a license to use that strain for certain things, use it for other things and it's an illegal violation. Hawk on the other hand encourages people to spread the love.

So, be respectful if you want, but if you aquired the strain with no striings attached then there are no strings attached.

Vendors should make exclusive licenses for strains they want to keep exclusively.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: [Re: jim2]
    #479602 - 12/04/01 02:22 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

All very good points. But in the 3+ years I've been in business my prices have stayed the same past the first 6 months, for the most part.
We send out quality spore clouded syringe and large thick spore prints and I'm not going to lower my price just because some other new spore whores want to make a quick buck and offer cut throat prices. I have specials going on every single week but I dont come here and advertise them.
If you want to see them, just drop by the website each week and take a look.

How many times have I seen some random growers show up and make a bunch of quick syringes and to make a fast buck and disappear. I remember about a year ago a member of the shroomery some ppl thought were cool and wanted to be a spore vendor offered a bunch of syringes at $5 each.
He suckered hundereds of ppl into this offer and took off with there money. What a joke.

Of course competition is good. But there comes a point when  low prices is to low. Running a successful spore busienss is a lot of hard work and time. Our prices will always stay fair, certainly not dirt cheap, and certainly not expensive, just fair. I dont care how low other vendors make there prices to get your busienss, ours will always stay fair.
If ppl stop ordering from us because some other vendor is sending out lower quality spore syringes and prints for a much cheaper price then so be it, we'll lag on business for a while until they run out of spores.... je je je

We take on the philosophy, you get what you pay for.

Some ppl are going to go for the cheap price no matter what. Instead of paying the few extra $$ for quality to begin with they will follow the cheapest prices even if they know very little about the vendor. Which does not make any sense to me sinse its your root stock of spores that can play a huge factor in how good your crops are to begin with.
This thread might explain a little more on that to begin with.
clear vs spore clouded thread

Mycofile, that really is a damn good point about Stamets. That is one of the things he concentrates on, is developing the highest possible quality strains for commercial production and research. People are paying good money for those strains and many buy the license to use his "private stock" strains of various species for their research and commercial farms.

In a sense its something we do as well is spend a lot of time developing a strain before releasing them. This is something
-Clyde- brought to the table for The Hawks Eye.
He does most of the growing these days and he wont release anything until after its been run through the mill a few times and proves itself to be a winner. We could offer a multitude of just average strains that we have grown out but we wont.
We tried that with the Guadalajara, Colombians & Malaysia cubensis. Sure enough hardly anybody was getting decent enough flushes to write home about and lack of customer interest we dropped them. We only keep the ones that produce beautiful crops time and time again.

He even tried a few "exlusive" cubs from other vendors that turned out to be less then average producers.
Talk to Workman, he probably has 100+ species or strains but you dont see him offering them all either.

The most recent one that has surpassed our expectations is the pink buffalo and Lamai Beach from Thailand. I have so many new pictures from all the strains, including some new ones that I really need to get busy updating the site with ...:)

Tthere really is no way to patent or a vendor to keep his new strains exclusive, especially with an illegal mushroom to begin with :sad:. And like was mentioned, it takes many months to develop a new strain.

How many of these new wanna be vendors grow them out once and sell you the spore before the strain is developed? I did that once with the Cambodians back when they were first introduced and that mistake cost me dearly. That strain was very unstable in the 2nd generation and all the spores died off after only being in syringes for about 2 months. I had something like 300 syringes to replace, plus I sent extras for the troubles...and oh what a 3 month mess that was to fix. A lesson learned the hard way :smile:

There really is no way for have exclusive rights to a strain of psilocybe. Its just done out of respect really. Its up to the customer to decide which vendor he thinks is offering the best selection of spores from a strain.

Ok...that was my 2 cents... well that was very long... more like 8 cents.

Like I said MicronMagik, go with what your heart feels is right and hopefull you have spent some time developing this strain and are not offering it just because someone offered you a cheap deal on bunch of prints.


--------------------
-Peace-

High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES  for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com



muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com

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Invisiblejim2
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Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 204
Re: [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #479667 - 12/04/01 03:18 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

when i talk about a spore vender, i don't mean some kid that grows a crop on some PF cakes and decides to sell spores, i mean the people that are serious about the business. if somebody is dedicated to the work, it doesn't matter if they just started selling spores. afterall all the established venders were new at one time. right now, i think there's a good healthy competition with the venders. people offering new strains all the time, uncontaminated spore syringes, and a stable price range. the only real difference now is the syringes being cloudy or not. i myself prefer cloudy, but i haven't bought a syringe since i first started and got them from PF. they worked great, but i would have liked to see a few more spores in there. that's the difference now, who's making one or two syringes from a print, and who's making five or six. i look at that as a quality issue. you do get what you pay for. as for the exclusive strains, you can't really have them. what you can have are strains that you gaurantee, by that i mean, if you buy a strain, that's what you get. buy from somebody unestablished with no reputation , how do you know your getting what you paid for? it's a crap shoot! you need sort of a certification of authenticity.unless your getting the spores from the origanal vender, or somebody you REALLY trust, it's buyer beware

Edited by jim (12/04/01 03:22 PM)

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OfflineNITRIC
journeyman
Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 61
Loc: the buckeye
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: [Re: jim2]
    #479674 - 12/04/01 03:31 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

i just want to know what the exclusive spores are?

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Invisible40oz
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Re: [Re: NITRIC]
    #479689 - 12/04/01 03:47 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

lol...


--------------------
:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: mycofile]
    #479807 - 12/04/01 06:05 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Paul Stametes sells CULTURES, that is the difference. A culture is a strain, spores are not. His cultures are individual DIKARYONS selected from spore germinations. They have been selected for exceptional qualities!!!! You can keep growing from spore over and over and over and over, and you will never get the same exact strain, or sub-strain for you hard heads. The vendors here sell spores, in the USA, not cultures, so they are selling spore races not strains. There is no true breeding Hybrid spores being sold, like plant seeds. You can't patent spores!!!!!!!! Stametes is a genious though, now he is going to find a way, by getting a patent on his SPORE DISPERSAL SYSTEM, spores in oil for chainsaws and wood chippers, FUCKING GENIOUS!!!!!!!!!!
Spread the spores. Stop the bitching!!!!

Trading, is a matter of uncertainty. You have to trust that the person you are trading with is giving you spores from a known spore race. Getting PF when you wanted GT, or TC when you wanted Lipa ya. What makes a vendor think he never makes mistakes, or spores don't intermingle between races. Ryche, MAX, SPOREWORKS, Any vendor, can you be 100 % certain you are selling exactly what you say you are selling? Would you intentionally sell unknown spores?
Different species, o.k., easy to keep track of, but cubensis spore races. No one can be absolutely certain!!!! Even within species, like the copelandias, unless you are measureing spore sizes, you can't be certain. Hence the Sporeworks, Disclaimer with the Copelandias. They are the only site that even mentions the possibility that they can't be certain which species you are getting. Because a Vendor has obtained his Original prints from a collector like MJ, you think it is gonna be more Guarenteed. What about over time? Ive heard at least one vendor mention domestication via multispore germinations. Who is to say that other spores did not get into the mix, and what you have now is something different from what you got originally. Unless you go to Tailand and clone, and maintain that clone, you don't know what you got now!!!! And even with clones and cultures, they mutate over time as well. So now you got to go back to Tailand and clone again, and so on and so on. Good Luck. Have fun.
You damn cheap imitators, with your spore swiping habits. LOL
The cheaper they are the better. I give props were props are do, If I want something exotic, and noone has it, I will and have paid the price. And will continue to do so. But once you sell it, it ain't yours no more!!!! You wanna sell exclusive Strains, sell STRAINS.

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #479812 - 12/04/01 06:09 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

Edited by MicronMagick (12/04/01 06:13 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #479818 - 12/04/01 06:12 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

And for all the smart asses who will rip apart my lame post for errors. I'll save you the time. There are no true breeding mushrooms, and there are no F1 hybrid Spores. There are only Dikaryons, and each and every one will eventually be lost to time!!!! Just enjoy the variability and the variety, buy from whom you like and trust, and lets all be friends. The business will take care of itself.

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479838 - 12/04/01 06:32 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

What traits exactly are you gonna get to be expressed by multispore germination in 4- 5 generations? All the possibilities are in every generation. You have to select for them, individual Dikaryons.

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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #479891 - 12/04/01 07:16 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


--------------------
www.RalphstersSpores.com

WE SHIP TO CANADA FROM WITHIN CANADA :smile:

For your safety and security, we have a Secure Website.
Also for your security, we will not take your credit card number.
Your security and safety is of utmost importance to us.

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
    #479901 - 12/04/01 07:24 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ralphster44]
    #479920 - 12/04/01 07:42 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479932 - 12/04/01 07:49 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


--------------------
www.RalphstersSpores.com

WE SHIP TO CANADA FROM WITHIN CANADA :smile:

For your safety and security, we have a Secure Website.
Also for your security, we will not take your credit card number.
Your security and safety is of utmost importance to us.

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #479973 - 12/04/01 08:09 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

After all the badmouthing made in the past cutting down the SporeLab and our 'exclusive' strains, now everybody wants a piece of them. LOL!!

As long as only one person is selling something, then it is indeed 'exclusive' to them. Thats just common sense, look it up in the dictionary rolf and while your there..... look up 'leech'!

MM, I've had the Tapalpa out for two years now, I'm surprised it hasn't already made it into the mainstream. Of course, I remain the only vendor with the original spores enabling me to provide a continued cycle of early generation spores with all the traits of the original.


New Orleans Blues......watch for it soon!

Another SporeLab exclusive!

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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #479999 - 12/04/01 08:25 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


--------------------
www.RalphstersSpores.com

WE SHIP TO CANADA FROM WITHIN CANADA :smile:

For your safety and security, we have a Secure Website.
Also for your security, we will not take your credit card number.
Your security and safety is of utmost importance to us.

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Invisibleralphster44
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ralphster44]
    #480003 - 12/04/01 08:28 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #480112 - 12/04/01 10:10 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Oh boy.. here we go again with the strains/races thing.
Teonan, even Stamets uses the word strain in 2 different meanings of the word as we all do. Its even published in his books.
Here read this thread, I've already explained it.
Strains vs. races

We've grown out all the strains we carry time and time again to see they dont change much over time. They usually just get better and better. Their genetics and characteristics within each strain carry on from generation to generation.
Sometimes -Clyde- gets bored and clones some absolutly monsterous specimans and run those through a few times. Then take lots of spores from those amazing flushes. But we find that is really not needed for cubensis.
Start changing the substrate around a little and we'll see minor changes. Go back to the previous substrate and they go back to there normal traits.

We save prints from each generation and cultures in case we do lose one. Which did happen to us recently with one strain. But I guess after 3 years of growing it out it was bound to lose its vigor sooner or later. So back to some earlier gen prints.

As for keeping them all seperate, that has been very important to me since the very beginning. I feel they all give slightly different affects when ingested like good herb and that is important to me, to us.

These days we keep them all in their own boxes like as in the DB kits. After prints are taken from one strain, the table and all tools are wiped clean with alcohol. There is a lot more to it then that though.

Ralphster, that was a very cool offer of you for the samuiensis by the way.

And MicronMagik, my comments were not directed at you. I really have not followed your business tactics to know how good a job your doing. I'm basically saying follow your heart on the "exclusive" thing. And being original is always a plus.

As you can see Ralphster has no problem selling any and all strains of cubs from any vendor... :wink:
There really is no way to enforce it or find a happy medium about it so why bother getting all upset about it. But it certainly was cool of you to bring up this subject.

The only thing that ever bothered me about this subject was way back in the day when PF talked shit about all these other strains when he was only carrying the pf classic.
Then after talking so much shit he turned around and started selling them to everyone to keep up with competition. Now that really burned me up...but its water under the bridge now.

Anyway, I see some good things have come from this thread.
Spread the spores with love and these mushrooms will be good to you :smile:



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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #480257 - 12/05/01 12:37 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Taking a strain that a man has worked on to get it to fruit for such a long time, in my opinion is not right.
My respect to Workman, as many of us all know, is a fantastic cultivator.
That would be like stealing his patent rights.




my sentiments exactly.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: 40oz]
    #480551 - 12/05/01 09:26 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

'Spores from different areas will be added Max...not from close by towns or cities.'

I hate to tell you this MM but Tapalpa is just another town in Mexico. There are already several strains from that small country, each one bearing the name of the town/area it was collected in. I don't think any of those towns could be more than a couple hundred miles away from the next one. There are also 3 strains from the SE US, each bearing the name of town or region it was collected in.
Same diff.

Here they are cutting down the yet-to-be-released and totally unseen New Orleans Blues just as they cut down the Tapalpa when I first introduced it but give it another year and they will be selling the blues as well.

This place never ceases to amaze me!

Edited by CaptainMaxMushroom (12/05/01 10:01 AM)

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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #480943 - 12/05/01 04:30 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

i'd hafta agree with max for once....i remember all the trash talk about the talpalpa...

but i dont think people/vendors make a shit over this cube stain... because when "exclusive" comes to mind you think..ps mex...& sporeworks...


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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #481399 - 12/05/01 10:11 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Mother nature does select individual dikaryons. A group of spores germinate, Mate, and the most succesful ones for the particular environment that happens to be going on at that time, pin, and mature into shrooms. But when that dikaryons nuclei fuse and undergo meiosis, there is recombination. And you are back to a mixture of all the genes, variety. If what you were saying was true, mushrooms would not be succesful at growing in different climates throughout the year, in a specific spot. Especially if it happened that fast. As far as appearence goes, they all resemble eachother when coming from a single SPORE RACE, but those similarities evolved over a long time. You are mentioning TRAITS, and I wanted clarification as to what traits you are able to select for in 4 generations. Not how you do it!!!!!!!!

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #481434 - 12/05/01 10:41 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

From now on I shall refer to SPORE RACES as STRAINS, and individual DIKARYONS as SUB STRAINS, to eliminate the potential of certain readers from loosing site of the original argument being made. HE HE HE HE
LIKE I DID. LOL

Edited by Teonan (12/05/01 10:53 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: 40oz]
    #481465 - 12/05/01 11:14 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

So if someone else goes to MEXICO and brings back a P. mexicana, it will no longer be exclusive? Or would this be a breach of Shroom Ethics. LOL The hard part for Spore works, was obtaining the SPORES. Not growing them!!! Even the invitro sclerotia producer was just a matter of picking the right specimen to germinate spores from. He said it only took one substrain isolate from the A strain specimen!!!!! For me it is cheaper to spend 50 dollars, or 40 dollars now to buy a print, then the time and dinero it would take to go to Mexico and pick my own!!! Ralphster doesn't want to step on anyones toes, so he is respecting this "exclusivity", mush mush sells in another country, and I guess this doesn't offend Sporeworks. LOL This is a soap opera. But it does make for some entertaining reading!
According to Micron breeding mushroom traits to be true to type from multispore germination is easy, so how much work could they have really done on the MEXICANA once they got actual spores from the actual SPECIES.

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InvisibleJackMehoff
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Bawk, Bawk, Chicken Hawk [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #481484 - 12/05/01 11:33 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Posted by Karl Brooks
8-11-99
Alt.drugs.mushrooms

Bawk, Bawk, Chicken Hawk.

I knew me a Chicken Hawk.
He Bought Hisself A Spore.
He brought it to this newsgroup.
And started Him a War.

Bawk, Bawk, Chicken Hawk.
Squawk Squawk. Squawk.

I've waited for awhile.
And haven't seen a thing.
Where is the Chicken Hawk?
Our self-appointed king?

Chicken Hawk, had a little Gal.
He named her 420.
And nominated her Pal.

She ran around this Newsgroup.
And acted like a Queen.
A member of the Troup.
Who was always Extra Mean.

Bawk, Bawk, Chicken Hawk.
You are my Little Bitch.
Squawk, Squawk Chicken Hawk.
You are a forgotten Witch,

If I ever see you again, My little friend named Ted.
I hope you're Dead, from gunshots to the head.
Goodbye, Ted H.
I hate to see you run.
But after the crimes you did,
I'm glad you went away.

Bawk, Bawk Chicken Hawk. Have you much to say?
Bawk, Bawk, Chicken Hawk.
Ted H. of AZ. is Gay.




Karl Brooks was on to something I think.


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #481589 - 12/06/01 01:22 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

The Spore Works doesn't claim or request exclusive rights to any strain or species we sell or trade. My issues with Ralphster were of a personal nature and only partially aggravated by his mexicana comments. I don't want to inhibit the exchange of spores for whatever reasons. The Spore Works regularly exchanges spores and information with other vendors for mutual benefit. Frankly, I expected more vendors to be selling mexicana by now. The outburst with Ralphster was not meant to have the wide ranging inhibiting effects it seems to have wrought.


Teonan's comments are fair. The work wasn't in the growing of the mexicana but in acquiring the spores in the first place. Once the cultures were cleaned up, the growing was relatively easy. Testing sclerotia production just takes time since each isolate takes at least 3 months for a good test. Finding the outstanding sclerotia producer was mostly dumb luck with a single isolate.


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #481745 - 12/06/01 09:04 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Teonan, I read this thread over and over and it just did not make any sense to me what you were trying to convey.
It was mostly this part "But when that dikaryons nuclei fuse and undergo meiosis, there is recombination."

I have never heard of the term "meiosis" and I looked in all my mycology books glossary and sure enough its on listed in any of them. So what are you really trying to say ?

quote" If what you were saying was true, mushrooms would not be succesful at growing in different climates throughout the year, in a specific spot. "

What did I say that led this comment?

As for traits, I meant that in a broad sense of the word, not extensive research to develop strains that produce and eliminate certain traits.

Bawk Bawk Chicken Hawk.... pleaeeaaaZZZZeee......grow up! You can be a mature adult if you really try.
Karl Brooks did, and he turned out to be a pretty cool dude over at DD.


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InvisibleRyche HawkV
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
    #481749 - 12/06/01 09:09 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

The term "spore race" was something PF started on his website. I've never seen the term used anywhere else except the ppl that adapted it on line on these boards.
Although it certainly wouldn't be a bad term to seperate the word strains as its used in 2 contexts.


--------------------
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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #481802 - 12/06/01 10:04 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Meiosis? Come on hawk, if it isn't in a mycology book, it is certainly in any biology book. I think most mycologists take for granted that people reading their work have a fundamental understanding of biology.

Not that I'm taking a side here or anything, but meiosis is similar to mitosis, ever heard of that one? Mitosis is the process of a cell reproducing. The resulting cells have the same DNA, and the same number of chromosomes. Meiosis is also the process of a cell reproducing. This time however, the resulting cells have half the number of chromosomes.

Mitosis is the process by which skin cells replace themselves. Meiosis is the process by which egg and sperm cells are created.

Interesting info, polyploids (cells having too many sets of chromosomes) can be created (common with fruits and flowers) which after mitosis have double/triple etc the number of chromosomes. Certain chemicals (colchicine) prevent the chromosomes from seperating to their respective cells after they have doubled. These polyploid cells then go through mitosis without the chemicals, and reproduced to form more cells with the double chromosomes. When it's time for the organism to reproduce through meiosis, the resulting sperm/egg/spore/pollen etc has a full set of chromosomes instead of half. Therefore the mutation can be bred without chemicals after the initial treatment......

Anyway, the process of meiosis does allow for recombination of genetic material. Due to this recombination, even if two spores of the same "strain/race" mate to form dikaryons, there can be considerable variation from other dikaryons resulting from the same spore print.

PF was the first to use the word race in the OMC, but he certainly isn't the first to use it. I think it sounds too Helter Skelterish for me, the two uses of the word strain are readily apparent from context, and widely accepted throughout the broader mycological world.


--------------------
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-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
    #481990 - 12/06/01 01:38 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #482031 - 12/06/01 02:12 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Poor creatures :(

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InvisibleAssHumper10K
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
    #482161 - 12/06/01 03:48 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

It looked better and happier before.


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Re: [Re: MicronMagick]
    #482181 - 12/06/01 04:09 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

A person trades any right to call a strain exclusive once it is sold publicly. A private sale could be another matter. If a seller asks a buyer not to distribute any spores acquired from said sale then buyer should respect the agreement like any other agreement/terms of a sale. Even under those circumstances i dont think a strain could be expected to stay "exclusive" longer than 6 months, depending on how many private sales there were.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: [Re: Billyblastoff]
    #482244 - 12/06/01 05:31 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

If a vendor is selling something and they are the ONLY vendor selling it then that product is esclusive to that vendor until such a time that another vendor also sells it. Simple as that, there is really no argument other then by those who will argue black is white.

Hey MM, got any prints of those dogs?

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Re: [Re: mycofile]
    #482571 - 12/06/01 11:05 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Well thanks for clearing that up mycofile. But 99% of us here are not biologist so were not going to understand that technical jargon. Were just ametuer mycologist....but do get our fill of biology on the Discovery channel :wink:

Plus how many of us here have access to the very expensive lab equiptment required to study DNA of these mushrooms?
If any of us did I'm sure we would see some true hybrids showing up. Its to bad Stamets wouldn't take the time to try combine azurescens/cubensis that would be easy to grow indoors.
Wishfull thinking :sun:



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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Ryche Hawk]
    #482586 - 12/06/01 11:26 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

Edited by MicronMagick (12/07/01 12:26 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: [Re: MicronMagick]
    #482912 - 12/07/01 09:46 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

My point on recombination was adressed to Micron not Ryche. Animals breeding strategy is slightly different then a tetrapolar, heterothallic mushroom. Please point me to any and all literature you have available on breeding traits to be true to type on MUSHROOMS. Recombination is really not my argument, because all sexually reproducing creatures do meiosis, and traits can be breed. Like your doggies. But If you breed the reccessive dog with the dominant dog, What do the offspring look like? When you go back to spores each time, this is what you are doing.
Hawkster, variability within a print, is what enables cubensis to fruit year round in Florida. A single dikaryon would not be able to fruit with any success at say 50 degrees F, and 80 degrees F. But a population of a Spore Race's Dikaryons could. One dikaryon may prefer to veg. at a lower temperature, and fruit at an even lower temperature, while others might veg at very high temps, and fruit at slightly higher temps then others within the population. Of course none of this is relevant to say, multisporing for print SALES. You maintain a constant temp. for Veg. and a lower constant temp for fruiting. Which ever dikaryon, or dikaryons that grow best at the environment you choose to put them in, are going to win the race, and fruit with uniformity, like your pretty pictures. But clone a few specimens off these trays, and colonize them at say 75 F and fruit them at 60 F, and see how well they preform.
Micron, I am not doubting it's possibility, just doubting you can do it so easily. And with such uniformity. These fungi spend a short period of time as germinated growing haploids, which have to come in contact with compatible haploids, mate, undergo twice as many mitotic divisions per hyphae, as an animal cell nuclei would do, can reach sates of having hyphae with more then two nuclei inside the fruitbody, have to fuse the haploid nuclei, before undergoing meiosis. At each and every step there can be recombination. The haploid nuclei Monokaryon can be geneticaly diffrent then the same haploid nuclei existing next to the other haploid nuclei side by side in the dikaryon hyphae, each of which must undergoe mitosis to form a new hyphae. When they fuse (Karyogamy) to form the diploid state that undergoes meiosis, they can be genetically different, and during meiosis there is recombination. Variability at each and every stage is possible.

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Anonymous

Re: [Re: ]
    #482929 - 12/07/01 10:05 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Micron look up the terms Parasexualism and heteroploidy.
The spore race as a whole will maintain a similarity in appearance. It's owtward appearance is not gonna drastically change overnight if grown in the same environment. Cap size is more of a product of Genetics, substarte quantity, substrate quality, number of pins produced, and the environment they are exposed to Water quantity, Air exchange, and EVAPORATION RATE.
And I apologize for leading this thread away from it's original intent. STRAIN EXCLUSIVITY.
Thanks Sporeworks for the post!!!! You guys are respected, hence the lack of mexicana print competition. I for one would never sell a mexicana print. You saved alot of people here time and money to bring something special to the community. The only reward we can give you is respect and our $40.

Edited by Teonan (12/07/01 10:15 AM)

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InvisibleBillyblastoff
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Re: [Re: ]
    #483097 - 12/07/01 01:23 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds good, I'll give you a B+ for that answer...


--------------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."

"There is a wealth of information built into us, tucked away in the genetic material in every one of our cells. The psychedelic drugs allow exploration of this interior world, and insights into its nature."

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
    #483191 - 12/07/01 02:56 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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Anonymous

Re: [Re: MicronMagick]
    #483567 - 12/07/01 08:40 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Look up heterothallic. You don't inbreed mushrooms with this type of reproductive strategy. The trait would have to be in all the mating types to be expressed. "Incest Taboo" A1B1A2B2.
Those mushrooms look like they were grown in two different environments. And what you are showing an example of is domestication. Domestication in the sense you have started with a wild strain, and cultivated it on the same substrate, in the same environment, for a few generations.
Back to the recessive trait. To get it you have to know which parents will contribute to maintain the recessive trait, or get one out of many to express it. How do you do this with shrooms? There are no parents to breed, only the individual dikaryon, and the genetic mix you get from it's spores.
I think I would have to see both strains the T3 and the KS growing side by side on the same substrate, in the same environment, with a similar pin set, in the same picture, to become a believer!!!!

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InvisibleMicronMagick
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
    #483618 - 12/07/01 09:51 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.

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Anonymous

Re: [Re: MicronMagick]
    #484063 - 12/08/01 12:53 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Micron you were suggesting that SPECIFIC traits could be breed true in 4 generations via spore prints. I am merely stating I think you are wrong. Senescence occurs with Dikaryons, individual "strains" that have undergone to many divisions over time, or from growing it on the same substrate for to many divisions. The individual dikaryon looses it's vigor, and starts to sector. Not the spores from the Dikaryon. Every time you go back to spores you have diversity again.
Domestication is not making something new, it is a matter of turning on certain genes, already in the spore race, that enable it to utilize the substrare you are growing on better. But you have not breed a trait to be true to type. Within that same print there will be other Dikaryons that still prefer the WILD conditions. And if you put them outside, you will see that!!!!
Every time you go to spore, it is a crap shoot. You increase your odds over time, by growing in the exact same environment every time, but nothing is Absolute. It is still a crap shoot.
As the hawkster stated, this is all irrelevant, no matter what you do, these things have memory, the Lipa Ya is going to remember what it looks like, no matter what you do. It evolved over a long period of time, not 4-5 generations. It evolved on manure, in a specific location.
Look at cultivated specimens of the mexicana. They don't look like wild specimens. Substrate, and environment changed their appearance. But put them back into the environment from which they came, and they will remember. They will change overnight to their wild appearance.
When I think of traits, I am thinking of something specific like time to pin set. And if you find those few Dikaryons that are substantialy earlier then the majority within a given spore race, you can't breed it into the masses in four generations. You clone that unique individual, and grow it, the DIKARYON ( STAIN/ SUB STRAIN).
Peace Teonan

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InvisibleFizikz
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Re: [Re: Anonymous]
    #4863330 - 10/28/05 12:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

eat some shrooms lose the ego guy

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Offlinewaixingren
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Re: [Re: Fizikz]
    #4863514 - 10/28/05 01:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

dude why reply to a 4 year old thread?


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Post deleted by users_request [Re: MicronMagick]
    #4864096 - 10/28/05 04:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
this thread is 4 years old.

why kick a dead horse?

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* Captains Plate
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Anonymous 3,620 32 01/06/02 08:39 PM
by Anonymous

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