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 Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
 
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,615
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 21 hours, 38 minutes
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 Re: "Exclusive" question  [Re: ]
#481589 - 12/06/01 01:22 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Spore Works doesn't claim or request exclusive rights to any strain or species we sell or trade. My issues with Ralphster were of a personal nature and only partially aggravated by his mexicana comments. I don't want to inhibit the exchange of spores for whatever reasons. The Spore Works regularly exchanges spores and information with other vendors for mutual benefit. Frankly, I expected more vendors to be selling mexicana by now. The outburst with Ralphster was not meant to have the wide ranging inhibiting effects it seems to have wrought.
Teonan's comments are fair. The work wasn't in the growing of the mexicana but in acquiring the spores in the first place. Once the cultures were cleaned up, the growing was relatively easy. Testing sclerotia production just takes time since each isolate takes at least 3 months for a good test. Finding the outstanding sclerotia producer was mostly dumb luck with a single isolate.
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 Ryche Hawk
A Messenger
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2,112
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
#481745 - 12/06/01 09:04 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Teonan, I read this thread over and over and it just did not make any sense to me what you were trying to convey.
It was mostly this part "But when that dikaryons nuclei fuse and undergo meiosis, there is recombination."
I have never heard of the term "meiosis" and I looked in all my mycology books glossary and sure enough its on listed in any of them. So what are you really trying to say ?
quote" If what you were saying was true, mushrooms would not be succesful at growing in different climates throughout the year, in a specific spot. "
What did I say that led this comment?
As for traits, I meant that in a broad sense of the word, not extensive research to develop strains that produce and eliminate certain traits.
Bawk Bawk Chicken Hawk.... pleaeeaaaZZZZeee......grow up! You can be a mature adult if you really try.
Karl Brooks did, and he turned out to be a pretty cool dude over at DD.
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-Peace-
High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com
muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com
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Ryche Hawk
A Messenger
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2,112
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: ]
#481749 - 12/06/01 09:09 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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The term "spore race" was something PF started on his website. I've never seen the term used anywhere else except the ppl that adapted it on line on these boards.
Although it certainly wouldn't be a bad term to seperate the word strains as its used in 2 contexts.
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-Peace-
High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com
muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com
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mycofile
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/18/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
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Meiosis? Come on hawk, if it isn't in a mycology book, it is certainly in any biology book. I think most mycologists take for granted that people reading their work have a fundamental understanding of biology.
Not that I'm taking a side here or anything, but meiosis is similar to mitosis, ever heard of that one? Mitosis is the process of a cell reproducing. The resulting cells have the same DNA, and the same number of chromosomes. Meiosis is also the process of a cell reproducing. This time however, the resulting cells have half the number of chromosomes.
Mitosis is the process by which skin cells replace themselves. Meiosis is the process by which egg and sperm cells are created.
Interesting info, polyploids (cells having too many sets of chromosomes) can be created (common with fruits and flowers) which after mitosis have double/triple etc the number of chromosomes. Certain chemicals (colchicine) prevent the chromosomes from seperating to their respective cells after they have doubled. These polyploid cells then go through mitosis without the chemicals, and reproduced to form more cells with the double chromosomes. When it's time for the organism to reproduce through meiosis, the resulting sperm/egg/spore/pollen etc has a full set of chromosomes instead of half. Therefore the mutation can be bred without chemicals after the initial treatment......
Anyway, the process of meiosis does allow for recombination of genetic material. Due to this recombination, even if two spores of the same "strain/race" mate to form dikaryons, there can be considerable variation from other dikaryons resulting from the same spore print.
PF was the first to use the word race in the OMC, but he certainly isn't the first to use it. I think it sounds too Helter Skelterish for me, the two uses of the word strain are readily apparent from context, and widely accepted throughout the broader mycological world.
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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi
PM me with any cultivation questions.
I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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MicronMagick
old hand
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 1,026
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 Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
#481990 - 12/06/01 01:38 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,168
Loc: my room
Last seen: 11 days, 21 hours
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
#482031 - 12/06/01 02:12 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Poor creatures :(
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AssHumper10K
enthusiast
Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 249
Loc: Up, Your, Ass
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Re: "Exclusive" question [Re: MicronMagick]
#482161 - 12/06/01 03:48 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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It looked better and happier before.
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Billyblastoff
Psychoactivepredator
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 725
Loc: Down these mean city stre...
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A person trades any right to call a strain exclusive once it is sold publicly. A private sale could be another matter. If a seller asks a buyer not to distribute any spores acquired from said sale then buyer should respect the agreement like any other agreement/terms of a sale. Even under those circumstances i dont think a strain could be expected to stay "exclusive" longer than 6 months, depending on how many private sales there were.
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."
"There is a wealth of information built into us, tucked away in the genetic material in every one of our cells. The psychedelic drugs allow exploration of this interior world, and insights into its nature."
Tell me something good then I might agree with you....the Smithereens
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Anonymous
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If a vendor is selling something and they are the ONLY vendor selling it then that product is esclusive to that vendor until such a time that another vendor also sells it. Simple as that, there is really no argument other then by those who will argue black is white.
Hey MM, got any prints of those dogs?
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Ryche Hawk
A Messenger
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 2,112
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Well thanks for clearing that up mycofile. But 99% of us here are not biologist so were not going to understand that technical jargon. Were just ametuer mycologist....but do get our fill of biology on the Discovery channel 
Plus how many of us here have access to the very expensive lab equiptment required to study DNA of these mushrooms?
If any of us did I'm sure we would see some true hybrids showing up. Its to bad Stamets wouldn't take the time to try combine azurescens/cubensis that would be easy to grow indoors.
Wishfull thinking 
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-Peace-
High Quality MUSHROOM SPORES and CULTURES for microscopy at www.muShrooms.com
muShrooms.com is the new web site of
www.thehawkseye.com
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MicronMagick
old hand
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 1,026
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: Ryche Hawk]
#482586 - 12/06/01 11:26 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
Edited by MicronMagick (12/07/01 12:26 PM)
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Anonymous
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My point on recombination was adressed to Micron not Ryche. Animals breeding strategy is slightly different then a tetrapolar, heterothallic mushroom. Please point me to any and all literature you have available on breeding traits to be true to type on MUSHROOMS. Recombination is really not my argument, because all sexually reproducing creatures do meiosis, and traits can be breed. Like your doggies. But If you breed the reccessive dog with the dominant dog, What do the offspring look like? When you go back to spores each time, this is what you are doing.
Hawkster, variability within a print, is what enables cubensis to fruit year round in Florida. A single dikaryon would not be able to fruit with any success at say 50 degrees F, and 80 degrees F. But a population of a Spore Race's Dikaryons could. One dikaryon may prefer to veg. at a lower temperature, and fruit at an even lower temperature, while others might veg at very high temps, and fruit at slightly higher temps then others within the population. Of course none of this is relevant to say, multisporing for print SALES. You maintain a constant temp. for Veg. and a lower constant temp for fruiting. Which ever dikaryon, or dikaryons that grow best at the environment you choose to put them in, are going to win the race, and fruit with uniformity, like your pretty pictures. But clone a few specimens off these trays, and colonize them at say 75 F and fruit them at 60 F, and see how well they preform.
Micron, I am not doubting it's possibility, just doubting you can do it so easily. And with such uniformity. These fungi spend a short period of time as germinated growing haploids, which have to come in contact with compatible haploids, mate, undergo twice as many mitotic divisions per hyphae, as an animal cell nuclei would do, can reach sates of having hyphae with more then two nuclei inside the fruitbody, have to fuse the haploid nuclei, before undergoing meiosis. At each and every step there can be recombination. The haploid nuclei Monokaryon can be geneticaly diffrent then the same haploid nuclei existing next to the other haploid nuclei side by side in the dikaryon hyphae, each of which must undergoe mitosis to form a new hyphae. When they fuse (Karyogamy) to form the diploid state that undergoes meiosis, they can be genetically different, and during meiosis there is recombination. Variability at each and every stage is possible.
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Anonymous
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Re: [Re: ]
#482929 - 12/07/01 10:05 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Micron look up the terms Parasexualism and heteroploidy.
The spore race as a whole will maintain a similarity in appearance. It's owtward appearance is not gonna drastically change overnight if grown in the same environment. Cap size is more of a product of Genetics, substarte quantity, substrate quality, number of pins produced, and the environment they are exposed to Water quantity, Air exchange, and EVAPORATION RATE.
And I apologize for leading this thread away from it's original intent. STRAIN EXCLUSIVITY.
Thanks Sporeworks for the post!!!! You guys are respected, hence the lack of mexicana print competition. I for one would never sell a mexicana print. You saved alot of people here time and money to bring something special to the community. The only reward we can give you is respect and our $40.
Edited by Teonan (12/07/01 10:15 AM)
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Billyblastoff
Psychoactivepredator
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 725
Loc: Down these mean city stre...
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 Re: [Re: ]
#483097 - 12/07/01 01:23 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sounds good, I'll give you a B+ for that answer...
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For while knowledge defines all we currently know and understand, imagination points to all we might yet discover and create."
"There is a wealth of information built into us, tucked away in the genetic material in every one of our cells. The psychedelic drugs allow exploration of this interior world, and insights into its nature."
Tell me something good then I might agree with you....the Smithereens
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MicronMagick
old hand
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 1,026
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
#483191 - 12/07/01 02:56 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
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Anonymous
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Look up heterothallic. You don't inbreed mushrooms with this type of reproductive strategy. The trait would have to be in all the mating types to be expressed. "Incest Taboo" A1B1A2B2.
Those mushrooms look like they were grown in two different environments. And what you are showing an example of is domestication. Domestication in the sense you have started with a wild strain, and cultivated it on the same substrate, in the same environment, for a few generations.
Back to the recessive trait. To get it you have to know which parents will contribute to maintain the recessive trait, or get one out of many to express it. How do you do this with shrooms? There are no parents to breed, only the individual dikaryon, and the genetic mix you get from it's spores.
I think I would have to see both strains the T3 and the KS growing side by side on the same substrate, in the same environment, with a similar pin set, in the same picture, to become a believer!!!!
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MicronMagick
old hand
Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 1,026
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Post deleted by users_request [Re: ]
#483618 - 12/07/01 09:51 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
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Anonymous
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Micron you were suggesting that SPECIFIC traits could be breed true in 4 generations via spore prints. I am merely stating I think you are wrong. Senescence occurs with Dikaryons, individual "strains" that have undergone to many divisions over time, or from growing it on the same substrate for to many divisions. The individual dikaryon looses it's vigor, and starts to sector. Not the spores from the Dikaryon. Every time you go back to spores you have diversity again.
Domestication is not making something new, it is a matter of turning on certain genes, already in the spore race, that enable it to utilize the substrare you are growing on better. But you have not breed a trait to be true to type. Within that same print there will be other Dikaryons that still prefer the WILD conditions. And if you put them outside, you will see that!!!!
Every time you go to spore, it is a crap shoot. You increase your odds over time, by growing in the exact same environment every time, but nothing is Absolute. It is still a crap shoot.
As the hawkster stated, this is all irrelevant, no matter what you do, these things have memory, the Lipa Ya is going to remember what it looks like, no matter what you do. It evolved over a long period of time, not 4-5 generations. It evolved on manure, in a specific location.
Look at cultivated specimens of the mexicana. They don't look like wild specimens. Substrate, and environment changed their appearance. But put them back into the environment from which they came, and they will remember. They will change overnight to their wild appearance.
When I think of traits, I am thinking of something specific like time to pin set. And if you find those few Dikaryons that are substantialy earlier then the majority within a given spore race, you can't breed it into the masses in four generations. You clone that unique individual, and grow it, the DIKARYON ( STAIN/ SUB STRAIN).
Peace Teonan
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Fizikz
Not a real person
Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 370
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eat some shrooms lose the ego guy
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waixingren
Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 2,645
Loc: SW Florida
Last seen: 7 days, 1 hour
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Re: [Re: Fizikz]
#4863514 - 10/28/05 01:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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dude why reply to a 4 year old thread?
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