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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes
    #4775976 - 10/09/05 06:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I was thinking about how the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are usually used to denote certain stances on political issues. But what I see more is rather two types of lenses for viewing the world. The liberal mind sees a world in need of help. The conservative sees a world that needs to get its act together. The liberal wants to be the world's mother. The conservative wants to be the world's father. The liberal wants revolution. The conservative wants the world to shut up and quit whining. This seems most apparent when looking at libertarianism, an ideology which is neither liberal nor conservative. Yet there are libertarians who seem to fit the "liberal" archetype and those who fit in the "conservative" archetype, even if their disagreements over policy are rather minor. This is why, even in my more hardcore libertarian days, I could still sense a fundamental difference between myself and Phred(pinky at the time). Despite mutual agreement on nearly every issue other than foreign policy, there was a difference in our perspectives. I was the "liberal" libertarian while he was the "conservative" libertarian. Now, it's true that usually someone who fits a certain archetype will tend to gravitate towards certain policies which are conducive towards that particular worldview, but what is more fundamental is the psychological lens through which these issues are seen. "Liberal" and "conservative" aren't beliefs. They're the way one arrives at one's beliefs.


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4776021 - 10/09/05 07:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Psychotics, such as marijuana smokers, don't fall into either category.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4776197 - 10/09/05 08:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Los_Pepes said:
Psychotics, such as marijuana smokers, don't fall into either category.



Can we please ban this guy already? If Swami can get banned for "trolling" S&P, surely this guy is doing much worse trolling here..


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 491
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4776209 - 10/09/05 08:50 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Just because he didn't debate your end-of-an-LSD-trip-"logic" in the way you wanted him to doesn't mean he should be banned.


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InvisibleLos_Pepes
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4776282 - 10/09/05 09:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Paradigm should be banned.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4776352 - 10/09/05 09:46 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Those who break the rules get banned. Those who don't break the rules don't get banned. How hard a concept is that to grasp? You can't use Swami's case as an argument -- the rules in the Spirituality and Philosophy forum are different than the rules in this forum.

If you find a particular user's posts to be consistently exasperating, you are free to put that user on "ignore".




Phred


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4776469 - 10/09/05 10:18 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)


But what I see more is rather two types of lenses for viewing the world.


Welcome to the world of recognizing the "stained glass tint" of ideology.

Ideology turns into belief.  Belief turns into bias.  Bias influences how one views the world and it perverts one's ability to observe reality objectively.

That being said, I'll readily admit that I am overly reactionary at times.  :shrug:  At least I admit it.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4776684 - 10/09/05 11:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

first of all..george lakoff offers and excellent analysis of "liberal vs conservative" psychology...

second of all..its interesting to note that on this whole "mommy party vs daddy party" theme..the democraps ("mommy") and repoops ("daddy") have merged together on the far right as gender roles have vanished...i posted an earlier thread on this topic..which was largely dismissed...suffice it to say that there prolly is some type of unholy marriage of feminism and corpratism...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Los_Pepes]
    #4776739 - 10/09/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Don't worry, I wouldn't expect you to understand what he's talking about.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Phred]
    #4776887 - 10/09/05 12:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well a user who comes to this forum and offers no good argument except knee jerk reactionary statements to rile people up i mean its fairly obvious the said poster is a troll.

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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4776907 - 10/09/05 12:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

As much as I agree with your statement trolling is not part of the rules.

1. No flames.
2. Post sources if possible.

That's it.

I can say I think all Bush supporters are mentally retarded fools but I'm not flaming anyone specifically so it stands.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: newuser1492]
    #4777799 - 10/09/05 04:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Forget I said anything about Los_Pepes. Let's just get this thread back on-topic, shall we?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4777917 - 10/09/05 05:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Paradigm, I think the archetypes are more of conservative= insensitive (or disconnected) judgemental person who is logical but doesn't care about people, puts harsh ideals over compassion and reality, liberal=hypersensitive person who cares about people but has ill thought out ideas and is irrational, rash and inconsistent.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4778009 - 10/09/05 05:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Like any generalization or metaphor these are weak and basicly efforts to avoid real thought. The world is complex. As are the wealth of opinions held. Pigeonholes are for pigeons. This kind of foolishness contributes absolutely nothing to anyone's understanding of anything other than the intellectual laxity of those who indulge in it. I now have a clearer understanding of some people's intellectual sloth.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4778043 - 10/09/05 05:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

All generalizations are not innacurate, and I think there are many patterns and predictabilities with people.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4778308 - 10/09/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

All of us here generalize and generalize a lot. I try to do the best I can to keep it cool, opting for something like 'conservatives do this,' as opposed to 'conservatives are this.'

I've tried hard to draw fundemental lines between what's liberal and what's conservative. I never really get anywhere... I've come to think that maybe it's just a matter of taste.

Since many of us don't fall within parties, I think we just tend to do this cause it's an easy way to keep track of all the players on the board... It might be interesting to see what would happen if we all stopped using the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' for like a month or something. Actually, probably nothing would happen, but whatever.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Gijith]
    #4778499 - 10/09/05 07:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

It is apparent, especially on this forum that a view ideals are highly regarded to certain individuals. It isn't out of place to then compromise with others in cooperation for mutual support.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: looner2]
    #4781800 - 10/10/05 10:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
It is apparent, especially on this forum that a view ideals are highly regarded to certain individuals. It isn't out of place to then compromise with others in cooperation for mutual support.




Fucking priceless example of late night posting. "Compromise with others in cooperation for mutual support." At least you ran a spell check.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4781877 - 10/10/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

How about not being either liberal or Conservative.....or having any political party in power, that represents all/any of your stances....? The two party system in the US always makes you vote for the lesser of two evils....I mean BUSH or KERRY....what two outstanding choices! I voted for BUSH(so-called conservative), And got fucked...but if I were to vote Kerry (so called liberal democrat) same thing.......what to do?


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Loc: city of angels
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #4786242 - 10/11/05 05:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

...what to do?




Same thing that the American public had been doing for 100 years....OPEN THAT ASS UP AND GET FUCKED!

We could all grab our guns, our votes, our perspective and stand up but I sure am comfortable with my life. Bitching is easy, it doesn't cost you anything.


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"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4786255 - 10/11/05 05:43 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

To make it easy on myself I'll quote the detestable Wikipedia (the combination of all psuedo-intellectual computer dorks all rolled up into one!):

Archetype is defined as an original model of which all other similar persons, objects, or concepts are merely derivative, copied, patterned, or emulated. Archetype is also a template which exists in the unconscious part of the human brain, and can guide ones ability to understand.


So therefore your idea about one achetype defining another is invalid because one doesn'e exist except in one another's eyes! Your post is self-contradicting because you understand this inconsistency but still rely on it to define psychologial belief systems relating to worldviews. Everybody who disagrees with you (or me, or he, or she, or they, or them, or the Arabs, or the Nazi Americans, etc, etc, etc) is a victim of not understanding what REALLY is going on (there is no objective reality). Really all that means is you don't understand my respective understanding!

Liberal and conservative is just a way to define one's political views according to the present power structure in America. These words don't mean anything outside of the US or our time period even


If people would stop saying "all the people who oppose issue x are like y" we would have actual discussion about issues. People just need to shut the fuck up and listen to what other people have to say instead of waiting for their turn to speak.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #4787903 - 10/11/05 03:34 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I generally think you're insane but that was well put. Who wrote it for you? (If you don't know the right reply, ask me)


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
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Posts: 2,213
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4790620 - 10/11/05 11:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'll take that as a compliment. If I can remember correctly (which I can't) it was either my first or second bottle of Mickey's.

I probably read something to its effect in the past though so let me know who came up with it.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #4790642 - 10/11/05 11:48 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:
To make it easy on myself I'll quote the detestable Wikipedia (the combination of all psuedo-intellectual computer dorks all rolled up into one!):

Archetype is defined as an original model of which all other similar persons, objects, or concepts are merely derivative, copied, patterned, or emulated. Archetype is also a template which exists in the unconscious part of the human brain, and can guide ones ability to understand.


So therefore your idea about one achetype defining another is invalid because one doesn'e exist except in one another's eyes! Your post is self-contradicting because you understand this inconsistency but still rely on it to define psychologial belief systems relating to worldviews. Everybody who disagrees with you (or me, or he, or she, or they, or them, or the Arabs, or the Nazi Americans, etc, etc, etc) is a victim of not understanding what REALLY is going on (there is no objective reality). Really all that means is you don't understand my respective understanding!

Liberal and conservative is just a way to define one's political views according to the present power structure in America. These words don't mean anything outside of the US or our time period even


If people would stop saying "all the people who oppose issue x are like y" we would have actual discussion about issues. People just need to shut the fuck up and listen to what other people have to say instead of waiting for their turn to speak.



You're overcomplicating the issue. All I'm saying is that there are certain personality traits which seem to go with certain beliefs, and that these traits are fundamental in the formation of their opinions. Do you disagree with that premise?


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
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Posts: 2,213
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: Silversoul]
    #4790761 - 10/12/05 12:07 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I agree with the premise per se, but in the realm of politics I don't agree. Political views exist only within a political landscape, not outside of it so they are shaped by one's experience and personal version of said landscape far more than individual personality traits.

I (over)simplified the issue, not overcomplicated it.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #4793046 - 10/12/05 01:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The correct answer to the query "Who wrote it for you?" is, and forever must be, "I did, who read it to you?"


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
in a pinch
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Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: Liberal and Conservative as psychological archetypes [Re: zappaisgod]
    #4794326 - 10/12/05 06:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:foreheadslap:...and here I was giving credit to an inanimate object!


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."

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