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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious
#4773628 - 10/08/05 04:49 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.progress.org/2005/torture4.htm
Quote:
The Senate defied the White House and voted overwhelmingly to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.
Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties.
Bush had fought to prevent the restrictions, with Vice President Cheney visiting key Republicans in July and a spokesman yesterday repeating Bush's threat to veto the larger bill that the language is now attached to -- a huge $440 billion military spending measure.
But on the night of October 6, 89 senators sided with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), a former prisoner of war in Vietnam who led the fight for the interrogation restrictions.
As new allegations of torture -- and illegal coverups -- continue to surface, the coalition of McCain supporters is broadening. McCain read a letter on the Senate floor from former secretary of state Colin L. Powell, who endorsed the amendment and said it would help address "the terrible public diplomacy crisis created by Abu Ghraib."
Since the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib, U.S. military recruitment has fallen. With the Bush administration in favor of torture, recruits know that they face new dangers and humiliations if they are ever captured. After Attorney General Alberto "Mr. Torture" Gonzales endorsed torture of prisoners of war, all U.S. soldiers realize that the same treatment could face them if other countries choose to follow the U.S. example.
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daimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4773656 - 10/08/05 04:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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So the terrorists won't use torture against our troops now?! Fuck yea!
I've always wondered why they should get information that could save thousands of people if they have to hurt a terrorist.
Now if only they'd pass a bill to allow interrogators to set them up in a nice cozy loft with tea and crumpets when they want to question one.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4773659 - 10/08/05 04:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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You would think a good Christian man would be for the prevention of torture. Let him veto the entire bill if he doesn't like it.
^Not all of them are terrorists or insurgents.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: daimyo]
#4773670 - 10/08/05 04:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Torture is ineffective.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#4773752 - 10/08/05 05:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Actually, torture is effective. Whether or not it's moral is a different question.
Phred
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4773773 - 10/08/05 05:31 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Actually, torture is effective.
Yup. It got thousands of people to confess to being witches a few centuries ago.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4773788 - 10/08/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Actually, torture is effective. Whether or not it's moral is a different question.
How do you figure? It is quite common knowledge that when being exposed to extreme physical or mental stress, a person will tell anything to cease the stress. This includes information that are completely untrue (see Paradigm's example).
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#4773798 - 10/08/05 05:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I didn't say it was foolproof. I said it was effective. It is.
Phred
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#4773806 - 10/08/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Detainees have been known to give bad information before. Most of the terror alerts have been based on bad information.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4773812 - 10/08/05 05:42 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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As for the article posted... what a load of bullshit it managed to compress into a relatively few paragraphs.
That's not to say I disapprove of the bill. But there's a TON of crap in the commentary Paradigm posted.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4773823 - 10/08/05 05:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Full Text : COPYRIGHT 2004 Financial Times Information Ltd.
(From CBS News Channel)
Byline: Thalia Assuras, Joie Chen
THALIA ASSURAS, CBS ANCHOR: At least three California high school teachers have been put on paid leave after complaints they let students watch the videotaped beheading of American Nicholas Berg in Iraq. One allegedly gave out the video`s Web address.
Defense Secretary Rumsfeld reportedly approved the secret program that encouraged the physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners. The charge comes in the next issue of the "New Yorker" magazine. Meanwhile, many experts question whether the tactics are reliable.
Joie Chen has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOIE CHEN, CBS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The torture happened long ago and far away to Orlando Tizon and Sister Dianna Ortiz. He spent four years imprisoned in Ferdinand Marcos`s Philippines. She is an American nun, brutalized by Guatemalan security forces in 1989.
Long ago, and yet: (on camera): When you see the pictures, what do you see?
ORLANDO TIZON, TORTURE VICTIM: I see what was done to me.
CHEN (voice-over): A mock execution, blindfolds, humiliation, sexual abuse -- all are terrifyingly familiar.
SISTER DIANNA ORTIZ, FORMER TORTURE VICTIM: I was lowered into an open pit with human bodies; bodies of people that were also stark naked. And, at one point during my torture, there were dogs that were brought in.
CHEN: What`s worse, torture survivors say, in their agony, they were often willing to tell interrogators anything.
TIZON: I made up stories. I made up -- we would be tortured; at any time of the day, we would be taken out for torture and interrogation, anytime of the day or night. And we had to make up stories, just to be able to get out of the situation.
CHEN: Those trained in military interrogation agree that information from tortured suspects is often useless.
MIKE RITZ, TEAM DELTA: Torture will make a person talk, but how do we know he is telling the truth?
CHEN: Just yesterday, the Pentagon announced it would change the rules for interrogating Iraqi detainees. No more sleep deprivation, being left hooded for days, forced into awkward positions for long periods.
Trying again to quell the continuing outrage over the Abu Ghraib pictures, President Bush today said, abusers would be punished; there will be no cover up.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My administration and out military are determined that such abuses never happen again.
CHEN (on camera): But the administration has maintained that detainees in Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan are enemy combatants, not covered by the Geneva Conventions, leaving open the question, what rules will apply to them?
Joie Chen, CBS News, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Clicky
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4773827 - 10/08/05 05:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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What false information is there in the article?
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4773849 - 10/08/05 05:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you mind pointing out the "TON of crap"?
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4773941 - 10/08/05 06:16 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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There's no doubt that it isn't foolproof but to dismiss it as entirely useless would be doing so in error.
Many of the psychological techniques (as opposed to purely relying on extreme physical discomfort) used for interrogation can be very effective at breaking the will of someone unwilling to cooperate. Interrogators in Vietnam were able to extract much useful information from the Vietcong that thwarted many attempts at ambushing patrols and the like. Most was done without resorting to extreme violence.
According to Michael Yon's weblog, it seems that we've been fairly useful in extracting usable intelligence from the enemy. Most he said were more than willing to turn on their brethren to save their own skin. To test them we need to but check up on what we've gathered in most instances.
One of the main arguments I've heard from the opponents say that it simply encourages retaliation from the enemy. That they would likely try to carry out the same acts on us. I say we can only hope. When they seem intent on cutting off the heads of everyone they think doesn't walk just the right way, it would be a welcome change if they only deprived their captives of sleep or subjected them to recordings of prayer on really big speakers.
We probably aren't going to get put in any ticking time-bomb situations where we can take a pair of pliers to a guys nuts and expect to save the day but to take it off the table entirely is irresponsible.
Edited by HagbardCeline (10/08/05 06:18 PM)
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4774068 - 10/08/05 06:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Paradigm, you framed this article in a misleading and unfair way.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Divided_Sky]
#4774105 - 10/08/05 07:00 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Divided_Sky said: Paradigm, you framed this article in a misleading and unfair way.
I quoted it word-for-word. How is that misleading and unfair?
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afoaf
CEO DBK?


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Posts: 32,665
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4774139 - 10/08/05 07:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't think anyone doubted that interrogation is effective.
it's torture that's at question.
since it's so fullproof, I'd be interested in seeing something to substantiate the foregone conclusion that torture is so goshdarn effective.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4774145 - 10/08/05 07:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
Divided_Sky said: Paradigm, you framed this article in a misleading and unfair way.
I quoted it word-for-word. How is that misleading and unfair?
Oh, I didn't see your source. i guess that isn't your doing. I should have been tipped off when the author said the White House was "in favor of torture". Implying that Bush loves torture and gets 'furious' that the Senate passes a resolution against it is pretty cheap. The White House opposed the Bill because they thought it was unecessary and perhaps a swipe at them so Congress could save face over Abu Ghraib. I have seen no evidence that Bush is "furious" because he really wants to torture people but the brave and noble Senate thwarted his nefarious plans.
-------------------- 1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..." 2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..." 3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: afoaf]
#4774185 - 10/08/05 07:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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First, we'll have to define torture. It seems that is what the bill intends to do.
The link Redstorm posted is proposing that "a mock execution, blindfolds, humiliation, (and) sexual abuse" are all forms of torture. Sexual abuse, I can see, but are the others what you would consider torture or interrogative techniques?
Edit - To clarify, I and Phred said it wasn't foolproof.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
Edited by HagbardCeline (10/08/05 07:45 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: newuser1492]
#4774238 - 10/08/05 08:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you mind pointing out the "TON of crap"?
Sure. I'm surprised you'd ask, though, since almost all of it has been covered extensively in other threads in this forum. But briefly --
Quote:
The Senate defied the White House and voted overwhelmingly to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere...
Nothing new at all. If you'd read the bill you'd know it specifically states that the Army's manual of conduct (I forget the exact name of the manual at the moment and too lazy to look it up) is to be the standard for interrogations. Well gee, Homer, it's already the standard for interrogations. That's why Lyndie England and her ilk got their asses court martialed after all -- for violating the regs in the manual.
Quote:
Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties.
"Alarm"? There's no alarm. I doubt the Republicans voted out of any kind of "alarm" but rather because they figured what's the harm in making an empty gesture telling the military to do what they've been doing all along? It changes exactly nothing and comes off as a big public relations coup to the human rights groups. It's a win-win for the Republicans.
Quote:
As new allegations of torture -- and illegal coverups -- continue to surface...
What new allegations are these? First I've heard of them. Allegations from whom? Captured Jihadis? The same Jihadis who are trained to routinely charge abuse at every opportunity?
Quote:
Since the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib...
We've been through all that a hundred times before. What was done to the criminals at Abu Ghraib was not torture. Humiliation, sure. Against the regs, sure. Torture? Not hardly.
Quote:
With the Bush administration in favor of torture...
Bullshit.
Quote:
After Attorney General Alberto "Mr. Torture" Gonzales endorsed torture of prisoners of war...
More bullshit. We've been through this a hundred times before. Gonzales never endorsed torturing prisoners of war.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4774263 - 10/08/05 08:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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He did clearly state that the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War does not apply to either Al-Queda or Taliban fighters, though. That seems like he is endorsing somthing which is not quite appropriate behavior.
http://kbonline.typepad.com/random/files/gonzales_memo_on_gen_conv_january_25_2002_pt_1.pdf
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#4774410 - 10/08/05 08:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quite clearly the Geneva Convention does not apply to either. That doesn't mean he endorsed torturing them. He didn't.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4774416 - 10/08/05 09:00 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would say that part of the convention does apply quite a bit.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#4774424 - 10/08/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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None of the convention applies at all. But that's beside the point. I was asked to point out the bullshit in the article. I did so.
Phred
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4774501 - 10/08/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's why Lyndie England and her ilk got their asses court martialed after all -- for violating the regs in the manual.
This is the height of naivety. Without public exposure of the pictures and the subsequent backlash, there would have been no court martials.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4774567 - 10/08/05 09:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're talking through your hat. It was the Pentagon who revealed the offenses to the press -- less than 72 hours after the information was reported to the C.O. of the unit involved. By the time the photos hit the airwaves at least one investigation had already been completed and two others were already well under way. The offenders had been identified, relieved of duty and charges either already filed or in the process of being filed.
You should hang out here more often. All this has been gone over half a dozen times already in this forum. Old news.
Phred
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Jellric
altered statesman

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Posts: 2,261
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4774714 - 10/08/05 10:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wonder what Bush's opinion is on the Dred Scott decision?
-------------------- I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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MikeOLogical
Doctor ofShroomology


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4774920 - 10/08/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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the way i read this bill, it would seem to outlaw mistreatment of any prisoner by any US authority... possibly including prisoners in custody in the US...
-------------------- We got Nothing! we're no longer selling jars.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4774982 - 10/08/05 10:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was in the Navy when a sailor was on indefinite restriction and repeatedly denied due process. He jumped ship in Honk Kong harbor where he drowned due to jellyfish stings. His friends in his department called for a Congressional Investigation. Suddenly, his department had to work 12 hour days, seven days a week until they recanted and could go ashore.
I fully believe in miltary justice having been before three trumped up Captain's Masts (sea-going Courts Martial) for legally filing for a Conscientious Objector discharge. After 18 months of abuse (including a death threat from a senior officer!), the Captain of the USS Horne was censured for mutliple violations of the UCMJ, via the Admiral of CincPacFleet due to my copious correspondence with Senator Ted Kennedy documenting every single criminal event. BTW, I received an Honorable Discharge with a totally clean record.
The Military is notorious for cover-ups.
Back on track:
It was by the prompting of the Red Cross that the investigations were started months before the photographs were even discovered.
The Pentagon had known about the abuses for months and panicked when they knew 60 Minutes was about to air them.
At least we invaded Iraq to stop Saddam's abuses at Abu Ghraib and showed the world how much more humane the USA is.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4775107 - 10/08/05 11:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It was by the prompting of the Red Cross that the investigations were started months before the photographs were even discovered.
Nope. It was when the colleague of the malefactors reported to his commanding officer that the investigations started.
Quote:
The Pentagon had known about the abuses for months and panicked when they knew 60 Minutes was about to air them.
Nope. One investigation had already been completed by then and the malefactors relieved of duty. No panic.
Quote:
At least we invaded Iraq to stop Saddam's abuses at Abu Ghraib and showed the world how much more humane the USA is.
In Hussein's regime, those who fed folks feet first into wood chippers got promoted. In the US military, those who put panties on the heads of prisoners and force them to form human pyramids get thrown in jail.
I realize you see no difference between the two situations, but that is of course your prerogative. Takes all kinds to make a world.
Phred
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4775130 - 10/08/05 11:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Torture is an effective tool in war. Moral... neither is war. However torture for information is standard, torture for punishment is immoral and despicable.
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4775200 - 10/08/05 11:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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So you're the one that narced Archy...Hyland sure was pissed.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4775428 - 10/09/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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In the US military, those who put panties on the heads of prisoners and force them to form human pyramids get thrown in jail.
As per usual, you miss the real picture:
Architects of U.S. Interrogation Policy: Promoted, Not Punished
Despite evidence of pervasive abuse, and findings by the Army?s own investigators of ?systemic problems? and ?leader responsibility? at high levels, most senior officials involved in U.S. detention and interrogation policy setting have not been punished ? and many have even been promoted.
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - who once asserted full responsibility for the torture that occurred ? was asked by the President to stay on as Secretary of Defense.
Former White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales ? among the first to embrace the no-rules-apply approach to the ?war on terror? ? is now U.S. Attorney General.
The month after the Abu Ghraib photos became public, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller ? formerly in charge of interrogations at Guantanamo and credited with instituting the use of dogs at Abu Ghraib ? was assigned to be senior commander in charge of detention operations in Iraq.
Jay S. Bybee, former Assistant Attorney General in the Office of Legal Counsel and the principal author of the memo defining torture so narrowly as to require an act to ?be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death,? was appointed a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in March, 2003.
William J. Haynes, Defense Department General Counsel ? who recommended over the protests of military lawyers many of the most abusive tactics used at Guantanamo (tactics that quickly ?migrated? to Iraq) ? has been nominated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.
Maj. Gen. Barbara Fast ? the highest-ranking intelligence officer so far tied to the Abu Ghraib scandal ? was assigned to the Army?s main interrogation training facility at Fort Huachuca, Arizona last month.
Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez ? who oversaw detention facilities in Iraq and was excoriated in Pentagon reports for his role in letting torture continue under his command ? was named the head of the Army?s 5th Corps in Europe.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#4775438 - 10/09/05 12:58 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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However torture for information is standard,
Yet the USA pretends otherwise to maintain her pretense of moral superiority.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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The14thWarrior
The Shootist

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#4775842 - 10/09/05 03:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nothing in your news report talks about Bush being "Furious". Thanks for interpreting the news and, well, lets just say "making things up".
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: The14thWarrior]
#4775928 - 10/09/05 05:11 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The14thWarrior said: Nothing in your news report talks about Bush being "Furious". Thanks for interpreting the news and, well, lets just say "making things up".
Click the link and read the headline. I didn't make shit up. Take it up with whoever wrote the article.
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Edited by Paradigm (10/09/05 05:12 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4776328 - 10/09/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Swami writes:
Quote:
As per usual, you miss the real picture:
Architects of U.S. Interrogation Policy: Promoted, Not Punished
As per usual, you misrepresent reality. What England and her cronies did was in no way shape or form US interrogation policy. It was a crew of jackasses on the night shift horsing around for their own sick amusement. As has been pointed out many, MANY times by reports in the mainstream press, the prisoners they were humiliating weren't even intelligence targets. Not only were those prisoners not being interrogated by England et al, they weren't being interrogated by anyone else either.
Phred
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
#4776543 - 10/09/05 10:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Report: 108 Died In U.S. Custody
WASHINGTON, March 16, 2005
(AP) At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press. Roughly a quarter of those deaths have been investigated as possible abuse by U.S. personnel.
The figure, far higher than any previously disclosed, includes cases investigated by the Army, Navy, CIA and Justice Department. Some 65,000 prisoners have been taken during the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, although most have been freed.
The Pentagon has never provided comprehensive information on how many prisoners taken during the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have died, and the 108 figure is based on information supplied by Army, Navy and other government officials. It includes deaths attributed to natural causes.
To human rights groups, the deaths form a clear pattern.
"Despite the military's own reports of deaths and abuses of detainees in U.S. custody, it is astonishing that our government can still pretend that what is happening is the work of a few rogue soldiers," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "No one at the highest levels of our government has yet been held accountable for the torture and abuse, and that is unacceptable."
Hey though, no pictures, no prosecutions. Hard to make it any simpler.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4776719 - 10/09/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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108 out of 65,000, most of whom were enemies sworn to kill. What a fucking outrage. Fuck impeachment. He and every congressman and senator who voted for the war must be beheaded. Slowly. With a dull knife.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4776724 - 10/09/05 11:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good link, by the way
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: zappaisgod]
#4776749 - 10/09/05 11:37 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
He and every congressman and senator who voted for the war must be beheaded. Slowly. With a dull knife.
I know. It's too bad that will never happen.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: newuser1492]
#4776815 - 10/09/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was being facetious. You are being foolish
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: zappaisgod]
#4777269 - 10/09/05 02:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most of us knew, Rush.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: bukkake]
#4777271 - 10/09/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most, but not all, Al.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4777304 - 10/09/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Link for Swami's cut and paste -- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150601,00.html
Let's look at this a little more closely.
The article says the number includes those who died of natural causes. I would imagine that in the case of Afghanistan at least, where malnourishment and endemic disease is such that the average lifespan of an Afghani male is under fifty years, there would be a fair number of deaths from natural causes. How many of the 108 was that? The article doesn't say.
The full article does, however, mention violent uprisings at prisons. How many of the 108 died in prison uprisings? The article doesn't say.
How many of the 108 were seriously wounded at time of capture (we are talking about people most often caught on the battlefield, after all) and died of their wounds after capture? The article doesn't say.
What the article does say is that the military investigated "roughly a quarter" of the deaths "as possible abuse by US personnel". What's roughly a quarter" Twenty-four? Twenty-five? I can guarantee you it was no more than 26, because if it was precisely 27 deaths they would not have used the qualifier "roughly", and if it was 28 or more I can guarantee they would have used the qualifier "more than".
So we have... what... maybe two dozen deaths out of 65,000 over a span of four years that have been investigated.
Quote:
Hey though, no pictures, no prosecutions.
Where in the article does it say there have been no prosecutions? I don't see a quote even from Romero saying there have been no prosecutions.
Phred
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4777405 - 10/09/05 02:48 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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When the evidence refutes one's view of reality, shouldn't the good skeptic relent? Or has your recent tribulation exposed a more accepting side of you?
Since I don't doubt you were in the Navy I was surprised to see you mischaracterize Captain's Mast. To refer to it as a sea going Courts Martial would be a mistake I would have figured someone such as yourself wouldn't have made. Captain's Mast is nonjucdicial punshment.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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The14thWarrior
The Shootist

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4777529 - 10/09/05 03:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very true, a bunch of friends in the Marines have to deal with "Office Hours", I think it's called. NJP.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4777619 - 10/09/05 03:35 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are technically correct, I was just giving those unfamiliar with the term a somewhat similar comparison. My point stands that charges were fabricated and later dismissed only through heroic efforts and careful documentation on my part - not because of any 'real' justice.
The point that Phred and others were attempting to make is that the torture was unknown to higher-ups and the act of a few bad apples. This is extremely unlikely and if true, certainly indicates negligent leadership and piss-poor training; not one worthy of a promotion.
My personal observations show the bending and side-stepping of (UCMJ) military law by the Captain and senior officers of a nuclear frigate.
Was this unique? No. While on the USS Constellation CVA-64, a fellow radar man was severely injured after being shocked with high voltage when the Radar chief bypassed safety regulations and ordered the sailor to perform an unnecessary and dangerous operation. I wrote the Chief up for safety violations and was told in no uncertain terms by the Executive Officer to rip up the report or face holy hell for the remainder of my tour.
Then there was the time on the USS Horne CG-30 where we accidentally shot at a civilian aircraft (TWA Flight 800 anyone?) and were severely warned never to speak of it or face dire consequences. (The civilian pilot of the piper cub was unaware that he had been shot at as the missile missed him by a few hundred yards to his rear.)
The 1989 gun turret explosion on board the USS Iowa exposed all sorts of procedural fuck-ups including using 40 year-old powder. How did the Navy investigative team deal with the multiple safety and protocol violations? By blaming a dead sailor for a suicide in alleged response to having a gay advance being rebuffed. This far-fetched fabrication had no basis in fact.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4778958 - 10/09/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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The overwhelming majority of the claims of torture I've heard of don't fit my definition. Humiliation and mistreatment, sure. Torture, no.
I'm sure you've seen the link to the Stanford prison study before. Those were only college students who didn't even know each other (I believe, if not, the point still stands). These people being accused of "torture" are guarding prisoners who have attempted and succeeded in killing many of their comrades. People who have even attempted killing them. People intent on the destruction of the country they've sworn to protect.
And you find it unlikely they did this of their own accord?
Your anecdotes don't seem to parallel this situation either. Because even if some higher-up threatened the whistleblower, that individual possesed conviction that refused to let them bow down. They did what was right and obviously whoever received the message also acted appropiately.
And you say negligent?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4779015 - 10/09/05 09:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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They did what was right and obviously whoever received the message also acted appropiately.
Because the pictures were going to be made public. No evidence - no investigation.
My anecdotes are related in that those in power in the military will cover their asses as their primary goal. Justice only comes about when one is able to go outside the command structure.
I suppose you and Phred also believe that the four LA policemen who beat Rodney King would STILL have been brought to trail without the videotape...
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (10/10/05 12:24 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4779276 - 10/09/05 09:56 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Because the pictures were going to be made public. No evidence - no investigation.
Wrong again. The investigations started immediately after the chain of command became aware of what had transpired. I repeat -- it was the Pentagon who immediately announced the incident to the press. That took place months before the pictures surfaced. This isn't a case of Woodward and Bernstein ferreting out informers and searching files -- the Pentagon told them what had occurred. The military was their source. What more do you want?
Back to the topic of the thread -- as those of you who have taken the time to read the actual bill know by now, there is nothing new in it. It's nothing more than yet another standard political grandstanding "feel good" public relations ploy by preening posturing politicians.
Phred
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4779358 - 10/09/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago) |
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Phred has already clarified this but I'll give you this timeline to help you out.
Have you found faith?
(AG) February 2003: The 372nd Military Police Company, an Army Reserve unit based near Cumberland, Md., was activated for duty in Iraq. The company commander is Capt. Donald J. Reese. The First Sergeant is 1st Sgt. Brian G. Lipinski. (2)
(AG) April 2003: In the looting that followed the regime?s collapse the huge Abu Ghraib prison complex, by then deserted, was stripped of everything that could be removed, including doors, windows, and bricks. The coalition authorities (over time, we assume) had the floors tiled, cells cleaned and repaired, and toilets, showers, and a new medical center added. (1)
(CB) April 13 2003 Camp Bucca, Iraq: A riot occurs and is suppressed by guards. (4)
(CB) May 12 2003, Camp Bucca, Iraq: According to witness reports Master Sgt. Lisa Girman, Sgt. 1st Class Scott McKenzie, Spc. Timothy Canjar and Sgt. Shawna Edmondson, members of the 320th Military Police Battalion, commanded by LTC Jerry Phillabaum, are seen abusing prisoners during a transport. They were subsequently charged with dereliction of duty, assault and other offenses. The four say they acted in self-defense. (3)
(AG/CB) June 2003: Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. Directly under the 800th is the 320th MP Battalion; directly under the 320th is the 372nd MP Company. (1)
(CB) August (4) through September (3) 2003: An article 32 hearing is held for the four guards accused of abuse at Camp Bucca. At such hearings evidence is presented, witnesses are questioned and based on the proceedings the investigating officer may recommend dismissal of the charges, administrative discipline or Courts Martial (3). General courts martial (highest level) are scheduled for Master Sgt. Girman, Sgt. 1st Class McKenzie, and Spc. Canjar on Jan. 20, 25 and 30, respectively. Edmonson accepts a demotion and other-than-honorable discharge in lieu of court martial.
(AG) In October of 2003, the 372nd was ordered to prison-guard duty at Abu Ghraib.(1)
(AG) "Fall": Several thousand prisoners were housed at Abu Ghraib, They fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of ?crimes against the coalition?; and a small number of suspected ?high-value? leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces. At last two high "inspections" with possibly conflicting recommendations are conducted. (1)
(AG) November 2003: Coincident with the Muslim holy month of Ramadan the US suffers one of the bloodiest months in the occupation of Iraq. Between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of ?sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses? at Abu Ghraib. (1)
(AG) Dec/Jan timeframe (implied various sources): A soldier, recognizing the behavior at Abu Ghraib as criminal, reports it. Army CID investigates the allegations of abuse at Al Ghraib and apparently establishes the case against most of the currently accused, including Army Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II.
(CB) Late Dec/Early Jan: The three members of the 320th MP Battalion awaiting courts martial (scheduled for late Jan) elect non-judicial punishment in lieu of court martial. They are discharged from military service, two have their ranks lowered, and all three are ordered to forfeit pay for two months. (5 - see also here)
Added Note 6 May 04 17:12 UTC: The above paragraph has resulted in some unintended confusion. The soldiers referenced were waiting courts martial on the Camp Bucca case, not the Abu Ghraib case.
(AG) Jan: General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army?s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way.(1)
(AG) Jan 14: SSG Frederick began writing his journal on Jan. 14, only a few hours after Army authorities fetched him for questioning and searched his quarters at 2:30 a.m. that day. He mailed copies to his mother, father, uncle and sister, and decided not to send it by e-mail for fear that the Army would see it first. (2)
(AG) In January Army SSG Frederick began letters and e-mails to family members, and repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib. (1)
(AG) 26 Jan CNN reports: The U.S. military's criminal investigation into potential abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. soldiers at Abu Gharib prison in Iraq now includes reports from soldiers that military police took photographs showing soldiers hitting detainees, CNN has learned.
Earlier, several Pentagon officials who declined to be identified by name confirmed to CNN that investigators were looking into the reports -- all coming from fellow soldiers -- of photographs showing male and female detainees with some of their clothing removed. (8)
(AG) Late Feb: A fifty-three-page report, the result of the January investigation (later obtained by The New Yorker), written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba was completed in late February. (1)
(AG) 20 March CNN reports: Six U.S. soldiers have been charged with offenses related to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at an Iraqi prison, the U.S. Army said Saturday.
Multiple sources said the allegations involve soldiers who took photographs of Iraqi prisoners in late 2003, including pictures that show the prisoners partially clothed or physical contact between soldiers and detainees.
<...>
One source said "less than two dozen detainees" were subjected to the alleged abuse, which was reported by U.S. Army soldiers who witnessed it. (9)
(AG) Mar: SSg Frederick's uncle William sent an e-mail message to retired colonel David Hackworth's Web. The NY Times describes Hackworth as "a retired colonel and a muckraker who was always willing to take on the military establishment." That e-mail message would put Mr. Lawson in touch with the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" and help set in motion events that led to the public disclosure of the graphic photographs and an international crisis for the Bush administration. The Times reports on 8 May: (7)
The irony, Mr. Lawson said, is that the public spectacle might have been avoided if the military and the federal government had been responsive to his claims that his nephew was simply following orders. Mr. Lawson said he sent letters to 17 members of Congress about the case earlier this year, with virtually no response, and that he ultimately contacted Mr. Hackworth's Web site out of frustration, leading him to cooperate with a consultant for "60 Minutes II."
"The Army had the opportunity for this not to come out, not to be on 60 Minutes," he said. "But the Army decided to prosecute those six G.I.'s because they thought me and my family were a bunch of poor, dirt people who could not do anything about it. But unfortunately, that was not the case." (7)
(AG) On April 9th, an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury, in which evidence is presented, witnesses are called, and the decision to pursue court martial is made) in the case against Sergeant Frederick. In addition to a military lawyer, SSgt Frederick retains the services of Gary Myers, one of the military defense attorneys in the Vietnam-era My Lai case. After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial against Frederick. (1)
(AG) Unknown date (14 Apr? (6)): CBS obtains photos of prisoner abuse along with the Taguba report. Seymour Hersh, a writer, also obtains a copy of the Taguba report.
The Washington Post reports:
CBS News delayed for two weeks airing a report about U.S. soldiers' alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, following a personal request from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Gen. Richard B. Myers called CBS anchor Dan Rather eight days before the report was to air, asking for extra time, said Jeff Fager, executive producer of "60 Minutes II."
Myers cited the safety of Americans held hostage and tension surrounding the Iraqi city of Fallujah, Fager said, adding that he held off as long as he believed possible given it was a competitive story.
With the New Yorker magazine preparing to run a detailed report on the alleged abuses, CBS broadcast its report Wednesday, 28 April, including images taken last year allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by U.S. captors at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. (6)
(This air date suggests CBS obtained the information around 14 April or shortly before. Note on 12 Apr Andy Rooney publishes a previously inexplicable piece called "Our Soldiers in Iraq Aren't Heroes")
(AG) 30 April: The New Yorker posts Hersh's account of the Taguba report online (1).
(AG) 7 May: "There are indications that the information provided was penetrating at some level, however. On January 20 th, for example, CNN reported that a CID investigation was being conducted into allegations of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib, and mentioned the possible existence of photographs taken of detainees.
Nonetheless, I know that we did not fully brief you on this subject along the way and we should have done so.
I wish we would have known more sooner and been able to tell you more sooner. But we didn't. For that, I apologize." (10)
(AG) Current: Six (and likely a seventh) soldier directly responsible for events at Abu Ghraib await courts martial. Numerous other individuals are facing reprimands and have had their careers effectively terminated. Many news sources imply the reprimands are the only result and ignore the pending courts martial.
Finally, a note from a Wall Street Journal Editorial: The irony of this latest episode is that American soldiers may be held accountable for abusing Iraqis before Saddam's worst henchmen are.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction

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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: daimyo]
#6126997 - 10/02/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said: I've always wondered why they should get information that could save thousands of people if they have to hurt a terrorist.
Of course NO reasonable person would argue that you shouldn't torture a horrible (Hitler-esque) person if it will save tons of innocent lives.
The problem is that typically torture is used to back up bogus allegations. "Tell me XXXX or we torture you more" won't get the truth, it'll just get someone to "corroberate" your story because otherwise you'll hurt them. At best torture may yield new information that could provide new leads - but it could also be misused to support BS or could provide misinformation (John McCain reportedly told his captors that the starting lineup for the Denver Broncos were the names of his commanding officers).
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: SilentG]
#6127010 - 10/02/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your reply is the first in about a year. Please let this thread die.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#6127091 - 10/02/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious
how times change..
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StroFun
Repeater

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 977
Loc: Mycotopia.net
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6127536 - 10/03/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see alot of opinions and subjective information on here so this thread is pretty worthless. Bottom line is what you think torture is and until you all firmly agree what exactly is torture you cannot say wether or not this article is false. People are judging this article based on caomparisons to their opinion, well gee i guess thats why nobody can agree with anything in this thread. Its clearly not a partisan issue (torture). A fact which is hurting alot of the arguments.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,643
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#6127655 - 10/03/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Senate defied the White House and voted overwhelmingly to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.
Now that's good news.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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