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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4774263 - 10/08/05 08:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

He did clearly state that the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War does not apply to either Al-Queda or Taliban fighters, though. That seems like he is endorsing somthing which is not quite appropriate behavior.

http://kbonline.typepad.com/random/files/gonzales_memo_on_gen_conv_january_25_2002_pt_1.pdf

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4774410 - 10/08/05 08:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quite clearly the Geneva Convention does not apply to either. That doesn't mean he endorsed torturing them. He didn't.



Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4774416 - 10/08/05 09:00 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I would say that part of the convention does apply quite a bit.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4774424 - 10/08/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

None of the convention applies at all. But that's beside the point. I was asked to point out the bullshit in the article. I did so.




Phred


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4774501 - 10/08/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

That's why Lyndie England and her ilk got their asses court martialed after all -- for violating the regs in the manual.

This is the height of naivety. Without public exposure of the pictures and the subsequent backlash, there would have been no court martials.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
    #4774567 - 10/08/05 09:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

You're talking through your hat. It was the Pentagon who revealed the offenses to the press -- less than 72 hours after the information was reported to the C.O. of the unit involved. By the time the photos hit the airwaves at least one investigation had already been completed and two others were already well under way. The offenders had been identified, relieved of duty and charges either already filed or in the process of being filed.

You should hang out here more often. All this has been gone over half a dozen times already in this forum. Old news.



Phred


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4774714 - 10/08/05 10:11 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I wonder what Bush's opinion is on the Dred Scott decision?


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineMikeOLogical
Doctor ofShroomology
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Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 4,133
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4774920 - 10/08/05 10:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

the way i read this bill, it would seem to outlaw mistreatment of any prisoner by any US authority... possibly including prisoners in custody in the US...


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We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4774982 - 10/08/05 10:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I was in the Navy when a sailor was on indefinite restriction and repeatedly denied due process. He jumped ship in Honk Kong harbor where he drowned due to jellyfish stings. His friends in his department called for a Congressional Investigation. Suddenly, his department had to work 12 hour days, seven days a week until they recanted and could go ashore.

I fully believe in miltary justice having been before three trumped up Captain's Masts (sea-going Courts Martial) for legally filing for a Conscientious Objector discharge. After 18 months of abuse (including a death threat from a senior officer!), the Captain of the USS Horne was censured for mutliple violations of the UCMJ, via the Admiral of CincPacFleet due to my copious correspondence with Senator Ted Kennedy documenting every single criminal event. BTW, I received an Honorable Discharge with a totally clean record.

The Military is notorious for cover-ups.


Back on track:

It was by the prompting of the Red Cross that the investigations were started months before the photographs were even discovered.

The Pentagon had known about the abuses for months and panicked when they knew 60 Minutes was about to air them.

At least we invaded Iraq to stop Saddam's abuses at Abu Ghraib and showed the world how much more humane the USA is.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
    #4775107 - 10/08/05 11:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It was by the prompting of the Red Cross that the investigations were started months before the photographs were even discovered.




Nope. It was when the colleague of the malefactors reported to his commanding officer that the investigations started.

Quote:

The Pentagon had known about the abuses for months and panicked when they knew 60 Minutes was about to air them.




Nope. One investigation had already been completed by then and the malefactors relieved of duty. No panic.

Quote:

At least we invaded Iraq to stop Saddam's abuses at Abu Ghraib and showed the world how much more humane the USA is.




In Hussein's regime, those who fed folks feet first into wood chippers got promoted. In the US military, those who put panties on the heads of prisoners and force them to form human pyramids get thrown in jail.

I realize you see no difference between the two situations, but that is of course your prerogative. Takes all kinds to make a world.




Phred


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
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Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4775130 - 10/08/05 11:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Torture is an effective tool in war. Moral... neither is war. However torture for information is standard, torture for punishment is immoral and despicable.

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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
    #4775200 - 10/08/05 11:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

So you're the one that narced Archy...Hyland sure was pissed.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4775428 - 10/09/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

In the US military, those who put panties on the heads of prisoners and force them to form human pyramids get thrown in jail.

As per usual, you miss the real picture:

Architects of U.S. Interrogation Policy: Promoted, Not Punished

Despite evidence of pervasive abuse, and findings by the Army?s own investigators of ?systemic problems? and ?leader responsibility? at high levels, most senior officials involved in U.S. detention and interrogation policy setting have not been punished ? and many have even been promoted.

Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - who once asserted full responsibility for the torture that occurred ? was asked by the President to stay on as Secretary of Defense.

Former White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales ? among the first to embrace the no-rules-apply approach to the ?war on terror? ? is now U.S. Attorney General.

The month after the Abu Ghraib photos became public, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller ? formerly in charge of interrogations at Guantanamo and credited with instituting the use of dogs at Abu Ghraib ? was assigned to be senior commander in charge of detention operations in Iraq.

Jay S. Bybee, former Assistant Attorney General in the Office of Legal Counsel and the principal author of the memo defining torture so narrowly as to require an act to ?be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death,? was appointed a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in March, 2003.

William J. Haynes, Defense Department General Counsel ? who recommended over the protests of military lawyers many of the most abusive tactics used at Guantanamo (tactics that quickly ?migrated? to Iraq) ? has been nominated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.

Maj. Gen. Barbara Fast ? the highest-ranking intelligence officer so far tied to the Abu Ghraib scandal ? was assigned to the Army?s main interrogation training facility at Fort Huachuca, Arizona last month.

Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez ? who oversaw detention facilities in Iraq and was excoriated in Pentagon reports for his role in letting torture continue under his command ? was named the head of the Army?s 5th Corps in Europe.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4775438 - 10/09/05 12:58 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

However torture for information is standard,

Yet the USA pretends otherwise to maintain her pretense of moral superiority.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 491
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4775842 - 10/09/05 03:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Nothing in your news report talks about Bush being "Furious". Thanks for interpreting the news and, well, lets just say "making things up".



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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4775928 - 10/09/05 05:11 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The14thWarrior said:
Nothing in your news report talks about Bush being "Furious". Thanks for interpreting the news and, well, lets just say "making things up".



Click the link and read the headline. I didn't make shit up. Take it up with whoever wrote the article.


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Edited by Paradigm (10/09/05 05:12 AM)

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
    #4776328 - 10/09/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

Quote:

As per usual, you miss the real picture:

Architects of U.S. Interrogation Policy: Promoted, Not Punished




As per usual, you misrepresent reality. What England and her cronies did was in no way shape or form US interrogation policy. It was a crew of jackasses on the night shift horsing around for their own sick amusement. As has been pointed out many, MANY times by reports in the mainstream press, the prisoners they were humiliating weren't even intelligence targets. Not only were those prisoners not being interrogated by England et al, they weren't being interrogated by anyone else either.





Phred


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4776543 - 10/09/05 10:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Report: 108 Died In U.S. Custody

WASHINGTON, March 16, 2005

(AP) At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press. Roughly a quarter of those deaths have been investigated as possible abuse by U.S. personnel.

The figure, far higher than any previously disclosed, includes cases investigated by the Army, Navy, CIA and Justice Department. Some 65,000 prisoners have been taken during the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, although most have been freed.

The Pentagon has never provided comprehensive information on how many prisoners taken during the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have died, and the 108 figure is based on information supplied by Army, Navy and other government officials. It includes deaths attributed to natural causes.

To human rights groups, the deaths form a clear pattern.

"Despite the military's own reports of deaths and abuses of detainees in U.S. custody, it is astonishing that our government can still pretend that what is happening is the work of a few rogue soldiers," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "No one at the highest levels of our government has yet been held accountable for the torture and abuse, and that is unacceptable."


Hey though, no pictures, no prosecutions. Hard to make it any simpler.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
    #4776719 - 10/09/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

108 out of 65,000, most of whom were enemies sworn to kill. What a fucking outrage. Fuck impeachment. He and every congressman and senator who voted for the war must be beheaded. Slowly. With a dull knife.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
    #4776724 - 10/09/05 11:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Good link, by the way


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