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daimyo
Monticello
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U.S. Withdraw From U.N.
#4766497 - 10/06/05 10:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I want to hear your opinions on this.
Should the United States of America withdraw from the United Nations? Why or why not?
What would be the implications(positive and negative) of such a move?
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: daimyo]
#4767552 - 10/07/05 03:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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that would would basically be pigeonholing the rest of the world into the anti-amerikkkan camp..which might not be such a bad thing if it finally stirs them to action...
-------------------- "anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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J4S0N
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: daimyo]
#4767629 - 10/07/05 05:10 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't trust the UN at all, so I think it would be wise for the US to withdraw. Every country should do so aswell. What purpose does it serve? I've been reading about a possible UN tax, which is just stupid.
I am firmly against globalization, and the UN is a stepping stone towards world government. Countries need fair trade, not free trade.
-------------------- "The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
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lonestar2004
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: daimyo]
#4767872 - 10/07/05 08:05 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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looner2
ABBA fan
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: lonestar2004]
#4767886 - 10/07/05 08:13 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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A better question is why we should stay with the U.N? It only exists to hold us back from acting on our own free will. An organization where the weak control the strong. It is absurd. It is no secret that even our old European allies don't trust us and would like every opportunity to bring us down. They have more favor with China.
I think leaving the U.N is a necessity. It shouldn't even be considered otherwise.
But be assured. When we do leave the anti-americanism will have a new log thrown on the fire. Europe, that bastion of filth, will use this fire as a means of building an identity for themselves: "We the American Haters, UNITE!" In a way this dangerous and pathetic at the same time. But honestly, what do we expect from the shit of the world?
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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nonick
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: looner2]
#4768051 - 10/07/05 08:51 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://cato.org/foreignpolicy/un.html
read and learn
basically, taxes shouldnt be used to fund our membership. and we should never let the UN control us.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: lonestar2004]
#4768130 - 10/07/05 09:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Target practice?
I don't think the answer to the problems of governments is yet another layer of government. The U.N. has shown itself to be a useless organization, controlled by the same class of liars and power seekers who control it's member nations. It should be abandoned and monies used to support it should be used towards paying off debt.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Silversoul
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4768376 - 10/07/05 10:22 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm no fan of the UN, but should there be some sort of international law? I agree the UN is a corrupt institution, and I certainly wouldn't put up a fit if we withdrew, but it seems like there ought to be some means of international governance to the extent needed to prevent, say, unprovoked invasions of foreign countries.
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Prosgeopax
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Silversoul]
#4768471 - 10/07/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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How would you grade the U.N.'s performance in handling unprovoked invasions of foreign countries?
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Silversoul
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4768497 - 10/07/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very poorly. Note that I am not defending the UN itself, and I certainly think it's done a piss-poor job. All I'm saying is that I see a possible role for international law in such cases.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Silversoul]
#4769186 - 10/07/05 01:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: All I'm saying is that I see a possible role for international law in such cases.
Here's my take:
1. Nations ignore international law all of the time. International law is pointless without an organization that can enforce it. The UN currently does a half-ass job of enforcing international law.
2. In order for an international organization to enforce international law, you would need for that organization to be very powerful. If you had a worldwide organization that was very powerful, tyranny would ensue and individual nation's sovereignty would be trampled upon.
Because of those two reasons I see no purpose or validity in international law.
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Silversoul
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#4769433 - 10/07/05 02:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I see your point, and I agree in some sense. But on the other hand, I see it kind of like how America was set up. There were to be individual sovereign states, united under a federal government. The federal government did not exercise a high degree of authority over the states, but it settled interstate disputes and kept the peace between them. Of course, as we've seen, that faded away, and now the federal government reigns supreme. But in the same sense, it seems almost like world government is inevitable in this globalized society. While I don't like the UN, I think the real reason a lot of Americans oppose it is because it pretends to be what we really are: the world government. America is more or less the ruler of the world, at least to a much greater degree than the UN is. And if America falls, China will rise to take its place. It seems like it would be better to have an international government composed of people from every country than to have one country ruling the world in a way that suits its own best interest.
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daimyo
Monticello
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Silversoul]
#4769527 - 10/07/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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At least with the U.S. being the "world government" people have the option to leave one country and be under the rule of another. If there is an actual world government there is no escaping outside of space travel.
The last thing the world needs is to be governed by anything similar to the oversized shit-pit that is our federal government.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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looner2
ABBA fan
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Silversoul]
#4769546 - 10/07/05 02:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: I see your point, and I agree in some sense. But on the other hand, I see it kind of like how America was set up. There were to be individual sovereign states, united under a federal government. The federal government did not exercise a high degree of authority over the states, but it settled interstate disputes and kept the peace between them. Of course, as we've seen, that faded away, and now the federal government reigns supreme. But in the same sense, it seems almost like world government is inevitable in this globalized society. While I don't like the UN, I think the real reason a lot of Americans oppose it is because it pretends to be what we really are: the world government. America is more or less the ruler of the world, at least to a much greater degree than the UN is. And if America falls, China will rise to take its place. It seems like it would be better to have an international government composed of people from every country than to have one country ruling the world in a way that suits its own best interest.
The U.N is needed because one day we will have a globilized society?
Clarify please. Do you mean the dissolution of borders and nations? The complete unification of all countries under one global leadership?
The U.N is viewed by optimists as an organization which facilitates the above. In reality, it is used by bureaucrats to pinch, pull, and manipulate countries that they have no business manipulating. The U.N as an organization to some-how define legitimacy is absurd. They are not a nation, and therefore can't view the threats that a nation faces in the same perspective. In the same light, enemies of a specific country can undermine the defense of another to suit their own needs.
Regardless, U.N has no method of legitimizing force. I've read a few articles where they are trying to adopt a cute little graph thing that is going to be used if wars are going to be a GO or NO. Its absurd. You fill in the fucking table and then your answer towards legitimacy is fulfilled. Did Hitlers invasion of Poland not sufficiently fill out the table? NO WAR. Sorry guys, our table says its not legitimate to go to war.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Silversoul
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: daimyo]
#4769548 - 10/07/05 02:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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My real preference would be towards the other extreme from world government -- independent city-states, or even just groups of people getting together in voluntary groups of association(a.k.a. anarchy).
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: looner2]
#4769571 - 10/07/05 02:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The U.N is needed because one day we will have a globilized society?
One day? Look around, man. That future is now.
Quote:
The U.N is viewed by optimists as an organization which facilitates the above. In reality, it is used by bureaucrats to pinch, pull, and manipulate countries that they have no business manipulating. The U.N as an organization to some-how define legitimacy is absurd. They are not a nation, and therefore can't view the threats that a nation faces in the same perspective. In the same light, enemies of a specific country can undermine the defense of another to suit their own needs.
Regardless, U.N has no method of legitimizing force. I've read a few articles where they are trying to adopt a cute little graph thing that is going to be used if wars are going to be a GO or NO. Its absurd. You fill in the fucking table and then your answer towards legitimacy is fulfilled. Did Hitlers invasion of Poland not sufficiently fill out the table? NO WAR. Sorry guys, our table says its not legitimate to go to war.
As I said, I am not defending the UN. I am conjecturing that some form of global governance may be needed to keep the peace among nations.
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phobey
watcher
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Silversoul]
#4772435 - 10/08/05 10:11 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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i think they should so the rest of the UN can sent a stabilization force to America (think you guys are going to need it pretty soon).
But it will never happen seeing the us owns the UN and its a great tool for allowing genocide's and make it seem we the mighty west did everything we could to stop it. right.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: phobey]
#4772565 - 10/08/05 11:00 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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The US "owns" the UN? Pull my other leg, son.
Check the voting record in the UN to see how many time 85% or more of the UN votes against the US, then get back to me.
Phred
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phobey
watcher
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Phred]
#4772572 - 10/08/05 11:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thats true but than explain to me why the UN didn't stop america when they attacked iraq and/or Afghanistan. The us didn't get approval for that and still they did it. And what did the UN did in return???? nothing
And to top that off to get participation/voice in the UN is rated by the number of troops your country has in destabilized zones where the UN operates.
The US has by far the most troops in these kind of areas so their voice outweighs alot of smaller countries.
Back at ya.
Edited by phobey (10/08/05 11:08 AM)
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Redstorm
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: phobey]
#4772689 - 10/08/05 11:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thats true but than explain to me why the UN didn't stop america when they attacked iraq and/or Afghanistan. The us didn't get approval for that and still they did it. And what did the UN did in return???? nothing
The war against the Taliban was pretty damn popular. They didn't do anything because they agreed with it.
Quote:
And to top that off to get participation/voice in the UN is rated by the number of troops your country has in destabilized zones where the UN operates.
I've never heard this before and don't really believe it's true. If you could provide some sources that back this up, I'll believe you, though.
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phobey
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Redstorm]
#4772767 - 10/08/05 12:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well i have no source other than i have been a soldier for 4,5 years and have been on several peace keeping missions. While i was in kosovo we where arresting war criminals by the number and we got a mandate from the american army to stop because it made them look bad because they didn't caught any yet. Off course we didn't agree but the mandate was pushed through and their was nothing our military command could do about it.
We also had our own protocols but because it didn't match the us army we needed to change them. Get in line or....
American soldiers always get the nice spots in war zones.
And that what i stated in my previous post i learned from my captain and i doubt he would be lying about such things.
And indeed the taliban war was a good thing but don't forget who installed them to power in the first place. But i am correct about iraq the UN never agreed to that war. Only thing is i couldn't remeber if it was iraq or afganistan. cleared now
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Redstorm
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: phobey]
#4772878 - 10/08/05 12:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Decisions are made either in the General Assembly or Security Council. In the General Assembly, each country gets one vote. It the SC, there are only a few countries in it, but decisions can be vetoed in it. I've never even heard of the method you are talking about, and I think it's just hear-say.
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bukkake
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Posts: 2,764
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Silversoul]
#4772925 - 10/08/05 01:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: I'm no fan of the UN, but should there be some sort of international law? I agree the UN is a corrupt institution, and I certainly wouldn't put up a fit if we withdrew, but it seems like there ought to be some means of international governance to the extent needed to prevent, say, unprovoked invasions of foreign countries.
Yes. Unfortunately, the US owns the UN. Actually, all first world countries own the UN. Veto power does the darndest things. The UN has become useless and riddled with corruption, but there should be an institution which holds up some form of civilized international law. One that upholds it, I mean.
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Phred
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: phobey]
#4772978 - 10/08/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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phobey writes:
Quote:
Thats true but than explain to me why the UN didn't stop america when they attacked iraq and/or Afghanistan.
You must surely be aware that the Afghanistan operation was sanctioned by the UN -- it is a UN operation! I would have thought a soldier would remember that. *shrugs*
As for Iraq, the reason the UN didn't "stop" America is that they couldn't stop America anymore than they could stop the slaughter in Rwanda or Bosnia or Kosovo or Sudan. The reality is that America (and to a much much lesser extent, the UK) is pretty much the only country in the world capable of projecting any significant amount of military power outside its own borders. The UN can't stop diddly without America's participation.
Further, thirty out of the 190 member countries of the UN publicly agreed with America's action in deposing Hussein and there are probably twice that many more who tacitly agreed. But since Bush made it clear he was going to do it with or without UN approval, it's safe for those not directly involved to sit back and take potshots at the US. There's no downside for them.
Phred
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tak
geo's henchman
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: Phred]
#4774243 - 10/08/05 08:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Back on subject.
How realistic is it that the US would withdraw from the UN? It doesnt sound at all like a possible situation to me, but what do I know.
And if the US did withdraw, besides the anti-americanism said to slightly increase, what other ill effects would this have for us? Would it be taken as a threat?
-------------------- The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: U.S. Withdraw From U.N. [Re: tak]
#4774258 - 10/08/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's not realistic at all given the people in charge today. They're too gutless.
It would have no ill effects for the US at all. Quite the reverse. Kicking those toadies off the soil of the US and keeping the money the US currently spends on running the place are two immediate benefits I can think of. The "mystery factor" -- i.e. no one knowing just what the US might do in any given situation since there'd be no more input to the UN from the Americans -- would be another bonus.
Phred
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