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Invisible40oz
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indole derivatives
    #476539 - 12/01/01 11:31 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

my dog ozzy is debating doing a small methenol extraction tek
to see if its worthwhile. Ozzy has used the wonderful search function, but cant seem to find a successful methanol extraction on cubes done here at the shroomery.
the tek calls on using mycelium. (assumingly to save space, extra time for primordia/fruitbody formation...etc)
ozzys question:
would there be more indole alkaloids in fruiting bodies or in mycelium ?
(Psilocybin, Psilocin, Baeocystin combined)

Thanx in Advance!





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Edited by fortyounces2freedom (12/02/01 12:49 AM)


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OfflineElektrolurch
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: 40oz]
    #476922 - 12/02/01 10:02 AM (15 years, 7 days ago)

Mainly mycellium should have the same concentration of alcaloids than fruitbodies (condensed mycellium), but there might be always exceptions...

I've done ethanolic extract out of colonized rye (Psi. cube), and it worked great.

Methanol should even work better, but you will have to evaporate it. Be careful, mathanol is not only poisonous, but it also burns very clean, so you can't even see a flame. So stay away from fire sources when extracting...

Elektrolurch


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Invisible40oz
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #477188 - 12/02/01 04:18 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

thank you Elektrolurch,
you answered ozzys question perfect. :smile:

In reply to:

Methanol should even work better, but you will have to evaporate it. Be careful, mathanol is not only poisonous, but it also burns very clean, so you can't even see a flame. So stay away from fire sources when extracting...




do you have any suggestions on different chemicals to use on the extraction.....maybe somethin a little easier to get? :wink:





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Offlinehoneyroasted
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: 40oz]
    #478017 - 12/03/01 07:18 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

you could use everclear. if you have the spare time you could even do a separation on the everclear and get yourself close to 100% ethanol


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: 40oz]
    #478046 - 12/03/01 07:42 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

>do you have any suggestions on different chemicals to use on the extraction
Hot water.


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Invisible40oz
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: honeyroasted]
    #478089 - 12/03/01 08:30 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

In reply to:

you could use everclear. if you have the spare time you could even do a separation on the everclear and get yourself close to 100% ethanol




i just talked to someone about using everclear/ethanol to substitute methanol...he said that the finished product comes out as "brownish goo" instead of a crystalline powder...

is this true?


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Invisible40oz
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Anno]
    #478094 - 12/03/01 08:40 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

>do you have any suggestions on different chemicals to use on the extraction
Hot water.
--------------

i was also thinking about using water...
what are the differences between methanol extraction & water extraction?


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Offlinetoo_many_weirdos
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Re: indole derivatives [Re: 40oz]
    #478103 - 12/03/01 09:04 AM (15 years, 6 days ago)

"the finished product comes out as "brownish goo" instead of a crystalline powder..."

This will happen no matter what i believe. there's other stuff in that crazy fungus that's water/ethanol/methanol soluble, and therefore will be found in the end product of your crude extraction. To further purify you probably need to do an acid/bass extraction and then to get it really pure (crystalline powder, pure psilocin/psilocybin) you probably need to do chromatography....i have absolutly no clue how to do this and i think you need some expensive equipment
so uh yeah...the brown goo is about as good as it gets...read up on acid/base extraction though...


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: 40oz]
    #478246 - 12/03/01 01:04 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

Water is cheap, available and non poisonous. And psilocybin is better soluble in water than in methanol.


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Anno]
    #479096 - 12/04/01 05:55 AM (15 years, 5 days ago)

to all:
Water works very good for psilocybin, but you'll loose the very non-polar (very poorly water soluble) psilocin :(
Water is still a easy way to go. I would use destilled water though, to have a higher purity in the end product.
I also heard of acetic acid (I think of concentration 30%) as a good solvent for both psilocin and psilocybin. The only problem is to get these out of the acetic acid, which I wouldn't drink and it doesn't evaporate that easily (a chromatography would be needed).

Elektrolurch

p.d. brownish goo as a result is very often in extractions. For crystalls you would have to work much more than just putting some ground mushrooms into methanol, ethanol or water...


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #480473 - 12/05/01 09:28 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)


MISINFORMATION ALERT

mycellium certainly DOES NOT have the same levels of alkaloids as the fruiting bodies the fungus, the alkaloids in question are products of secondary metabolic pathways and these occur in increased levels in the secondary growth structure/fruiting body.

the reason the tek exists to extract from mycellium, even though the concentrations of goodies are lower, is because it is easier to grow a few big jugs of mycelium in liquid culture than it is to go through the process of allowing the fungus to fruit.

that being said, if you want to extract, use mycellium, it will be more 'efficient' in terms of time and ease, save your fruits for munching or tea.


gray1


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #480506 - 12/05/01 10:37 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)



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Re: indole derivatives [Re: 40oz]
    #480751 - 12/05/01 03:33 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

my wookie friend has already attempted a anhydrous methanol extraction from dried fungal biomass... d
at first, the methanol went to a very odd color, a little yellow with a cyan glow...
after the methanol had evaporated, there was a nasty sticky brown goo left...
my wookie tried the goo. nothing. he tried with a much bigger quantity... nothing.
wookie conclusion: his strain doesnt have enough good stuff in mycelium.
looking forward to try the same with fruitbodies... should work at least.

water extraction: you mean making a tea or cooking it till the alkaloids are left? once i read a study that said that when using hydrated solvents there would be a bigger oxidation of alkaloids and it would lower the yields... right?


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: felixhigh]
    #480965 - 12/05/01 06:51 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

>water extraction: you mean making a tea or cooking it till the
>alkaloids are left?
I mean making a tea(with several extractions of the same powdered shrooms) and drinking the tea.


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Anno]
    #481502 - 12/06/01 02:00 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

oh, ok... cooking it down wouldnt be very smart, from my point of view!
tea is very effective indeed... best way, in my wookies opinion. but would be interesting if we could put the shrooms inside gelcaps or something...


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Anno]
    #481554 - 12/06/01 02:51 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

I've always understood the effects of heat to be negative toward the alkaloids. When ever making tea I have had to add a lot of shrooms to get anything very potent. Are you referring to a cold or hot tea?

Joshua


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Joshua]
    #481648 - 12/06/01 05:53 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Well, I never heard of a cold-tea-preparation.
So I meant tea as it is, hot water extraction.

Psilocybin is actually quite heat stable, psilocin is not. So when you?re making tea, you get mostly psilocybin out of the shrooms, psilocin brakes down. This is not too bad, since psilocin is very unstable and mostly brakes down when you dry the shrooms.

On the orher hand, extracting shroom powder is more effective than chewing some shrooms and swallowing, with the hot water extraction you get almost all of psilocybin out from your material, meaning that you (at least me) don?t have to take more shrooms to achive the same result on the mind and on the body.
Oh, not to forget: if you?re drinking tea the effects on the body are much less and the onset of the trip is much faster(10-15 minutes after drinking).

Tea is the only way I trip since I discovered this way of it?s preparation in the vaults.


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: Anno]
    #481670 - 12/06/01 08:12 AM (15 years, 3 days ago)

Sounds great, maybe I should give it a try ;)

Elektrolurch


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Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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Re: indole derivatives [Re: gray1]
    #482829 - 12/07/01 10:20 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Could you post here some article or any kind of reference where one could read about where secondary metabolites are produced?

For plants it's clear that secondary metabolites are produced in e.g. seed, but plants are much more differentiated than mushrooms and have a cellwall, which lets also the secondary metabolites to concentrate. But mushrooms have a much less selective uptake of chemicals than plants, e.g. the uptake and concentration of heavy metalls.

Thanx in advance for the info,

Elektrolurch


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And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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