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InvisibleEgo Death
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The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena
    #4763746 - 10/06/05 08:55 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object#Scientific_UFO_Field_Studies


Physical Evidence
There have, in fact been many UFO reports accompanied by physical evidence of various kinds, both direct and indirect. Hynek's close encounter scale would define indirect physical evidence as data obtained from "close encounters of the first kind," i.e. data obtained from afar, such as radar contacts or photographs. More direct physical evidence comes from "close encounters of the second kind," interactions occurring at close range, which include so-called "landing traces," and physiological effects.

A small fraction of these cases have been shown to be deliberate hoaxes. A larger fraction, including those researched by governmental and military authorities, have been labeled unidentified or unexplainable. Analyses of most cases have results that are ambiguous or inconclusive. However, even the ambiguous physical cases should be amenable to statistical analysis to reveal possible underlying trends across cases.

A list of various physical evidence cases includes:

Radar contact and tracking, sometimes from multiple sites. These are often considered among the best cases since they usually involve trained military personnel, simultaneous visual sightings, and aircraft intercepts. One such recent example were the mass sightings of large, silent, low-flying black triangles in 1989 and 1990 over Belgium.
Photograpic evidence, including still photos, movie film, and video, including some in infrared spectrum (rare).
Recorded visual spectrograms (extremely rare)--(see Spectrometer)
Recorded gravimetric and magnetic disturbances (extremely rare)
Landing physical trace evidence, including ground impressions, burned and/or dessicated soil, burned and broken foliage, metallic and other traces (see e.g. Height 611 UFO Incident), magnetic anomalies, and increased radiation levels. A well-known example from 1980 was the USAF Rendlesham Forest Incident in England. Another from 1964 occurred at Socorro, N.M. and was considered one of the most inexplicable of the USAF Project Blue Book cases. Catalogs of several thousand such cases have been compiled, particularly by researcher Ted Phillips.[15][16]
Physiological effects on people and animals including temporary paralysis, skin burns and rashes, corneal burns, and symptoms resembling radiation poisoning, such as the Cash-Landrum incident in 1980. One such case dates back to 1886, a Venezuelan incident reported in Scientific American magazine. [17]
So-called Animal/Cattle Mutilation cases, that some feel are also part of the UFO phenomenon. Such cases can and have been analyzed using forensic science techniques.
Biological effects on plants such as increased or decreased growth, germination effects on seeds, and blown-out stem nodes (usually associated with physical trace cases or crop circles)
Electromagnetic interference effects, including stalled cars, power black-outs, radio/TV interference, magnetic compass deflections, and aircraft navigation, communication, and engine disruption.[18]
Remote radiation detection, some noted in FBI and CIA documents occurring over government nuclear installations at Los Alamos National Laboratory and Oak Ridge National Laboratory in 1950, also reported by Project Blue Book director Ed Ruppelt in his book. [19]
Actual hard physical evidence cases, such as 1957, Ubatuba, Brazil, magnesium fragments analyzed in the Condon Report and by others. The 1964 Socorro incident also left metal traces, analyzed by NASA.
Misc: Recorded electromagnetic emissions, such as microwaves detected in the well-known 1957 RB-47 surveillance aircraft case, which was also a visual and radar case; [20] polarization rings observed around a UFO by a scientist, theorized by Dr. James Harder as intense magnetic fields from the UFO causing the Faraday effect. [21]
Despite the low opinion of the subject matter possibly held by many scientists, many reported physical effects would seem to be ripe for scientific analysis. A comprehensive scientific review of physical evidence cases was carried out by the 1997 Sturrock UFO panel.[22]

Some scientists and engineers have attempted to "back-engineer" the possible physics behind UFOs through analysis of both eyewitness reports and the physical evidence. Examples are former NASA engineer James McCampbell in his book Ufology online and NACA/NASA engineer Paul Hill in his book Unconventional Flying Objects. Among subjects tackled by both McCampbell and Hill was the question of how UFOs can fly at supersonic speeds without creating a sonic boom. McCampbell's solution of a microwave plasma parting the air in front of the craft is currently being researched by Dr. Leik Myrabo, Professor of Engineering Physics at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute as a possible advance in hypersonic flight.[23]

Some recently reported developments in electronic warfare mimic electromagnetic interference and physiologic effects described in UFO cases dating back to the 1940s and 1950s, and may conceivably be examples of military back-engineering efforts. In 1997, the U.S. Air Force Scientific Advisory Board issued a report on 21st Century Air Force weaponry, in which they described microwave directed energy weapons that could be used to stall vehicles, making them easy targets for bombing. The same weapon is also reported capable of disrupting aircraft navigation and communication systems, as well as ground electronics and power grids. [24] A microwave crowd control weapon causing heating and intense pain was announced in 2001. [25] Other microwave weapons have been proposed that would cause loss of bodily functions. [26] (See also wonder weapons)



It appears to me, that the encyclopedia supports my view that these objects are real...
:evil:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4763883 - 10/06/05 09:27 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

You can read it either way because it is unbiased...you interpret a bias because you have one yourself.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4764115 - 10/06/05 10:49 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i find it unlikely that any government would simply classify evidence of an unknown aircraft as "unknown" or "unexplainable"(which by the way is not even a word... the correct term is 'inexplicable') and leave it at that...

any unidentified aircraft could very likely be an as yet unknown foreign military craft...

no government would ignore evidence of such a craft unless they were convinced it was safe to do so...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4764918 - 10/07/05 01:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

From July 9 to July 30, 1947, Army Air Force Intelligence studied the 16 best UFO sightings of the previous months, mostly those reported by military and civilian pilots, and concluded that the "flying saucer situation" was neither imaginary nor adequately explained as natural phenomena: "something is really flying around."
In response to the earlier study, the engineering and intelligence divisions of the Air Force Materiel Command at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, under the direction of General Nathan Twining, further reviewed the data. Twining's memo of September 23, 1947, likewise concluded the craft were real, further defined their described characteristics, and urged that the subject should be treated seriously, including a formal investigation by multiple government agencies besides the Air Force. Both the Air Intelligence and Material Command studies concluding saucer reality were classified and not publicly acknowledged for many years.
Twining's memo resulted in the United States Air Force founding Project Sign in late 1947, the first publicly acknowledged government UFO study. Sign produced an "Estimate of the Situation" in late summer, 1948, concluding that the flying saucers were not only real but likely interplanetary in origin. USAF Chief of Staff General Hoyt S. Vandenberg ordered the report destroyed citing lack of physical proof.

Read the link - o master of logic :wink:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4764934 - 10/07/05 01:43 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Obviously,
you would too if a ship landed in front of you?

Or would that not convince you???

I may KNOW that UFO's exist but I can still try to take an open-minded perspective on it. I understand the logic of the disbeliever and the believer and the person who chooses to not fully believe in either. I am aware that nothing AT ALL can be proved! I can't prove your not a part of the matrix designed to stimulate my mind or something. All we can do is base our speculation on the evidence presented. If you don't want to see the evidence - then don't look, it holds answers you don't want to know.

Do you believe Hue? If not explain Travis Walton to me...


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4764966 - 10/07/05 01:49 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

How does this thread fit into S&P? This is a scientific subject.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4764982 - 10/07/05 01:54 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:
i find it unlikely that any government would simply classify evidence of an unknown aircraft as "unknown" or "unexplainable"(which by the way is not even a word... the correct term is 'inexplicable') and leave it at that...





What are you talking about? There can be two words that have the same meaning... they're called synonyms. Look up "unexplainable" in the dictionary. It's in the one I have.

and to danoEoboy

Quote:


A small fraction of these cases have been shown to be deliberate hoaxes. A larger fraction, including those researched by governmental and military authorities, have been labeled unidentified or unexplainable. Analyses of most cases have results that are ambiguous or inconclusive.




That says it right there. Still no solid evidence. Ambiguous and inconclusive.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4765021 - 10/07/05 02:01 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

dan, You need to realize that the conclusions you draw from a text might be different from that which another person might draw, look:

"Sign produced an "Estimate of the Situation" in late summer, 1948, concluding that the flying saucers were not only real but likely interplanetary in origin. USAF Chief of Staff General Hoyt S. Vandenberg ordered the report destroyed citing lack of physical proof."

Obviously you're interpreting that as "They proved they existed, then some government coverup dude decided to eliminate the evidence for some reason".

I see it as "some guy did a study and came to what he called a 'conclusion' without any solid evidence. The USAF Chief of Staff said 'There's no good evidence here, this is ridiculous, we can't take this kind of sloppy jumping to conclusions seriously', so he scrapped it". That makes a whole lot more sense to me because a) We also don't have any evidence that there is any good reason why the government would want to cover UFOs up and b) It's a very reasonable reaction to take, and I would have done the same thing to any study that claimed to prove something existed without providing anything but anecdotal evidence.

Anyone who overlooked that shortcoming and didn't take any action against such a flimsy study would not be doing their job.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4767664 - 10/07/05 02:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MikeOLogical said:

any unidentified aircraft could very likely be an as yet unknown foreign military craft...

no government would ignore evidence of such a craft unless they were convinced it was safe to do so...





After all the governmental studies of UFOs, the conclusion is that they pose no threat to national security.

And i don't think they're ignoring anything, i think they're covering it up.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: exclusive58]
    #4768224 - 10/07/05 06:36 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

And i don't think they're ignoring anything, i think they're covering it up

Two questions:

1. Are all other governments on Earth (including those that hate the US and would like nothing better than to expose our 'coverup') also covering things up?

2. What does the US government gain by coveirng up evidence of ET visitation other than lack of funding for ET research?

Can you give me direct answers to those two simple questions?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Diploid]
    #4768417 - 10/07/05 07:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

He probably can.

The problem is that a creative answer, and an answer backed up with credible evidence are the same thing in the world of the paranormal.

Anyone with an imagination can think of a reason why the government would want to cover anything up. They're working in cahoots with the UFOs to create new technology, for example. Any evidence or decent reason to believe that it's true? Nope, but it fills a void and allows you to continue believing whatever you like.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Phluck]
    #4768425 - 10/07/05 07:35 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yes theres no solid evidence but look at the weight of very hard to explain evidence... such as Travis Walton or Barney and Betty Hill - the list goes on.

These ships exist and they contain creatures.

To say they are extra-terrestrial just logically follows on as a likely answer to the origins of the creatures considering what we see of the known universe.

Its not about taking 1 technicality and focusing on that! You have to study the whole picture!

The radar reports, the sightings from so many people many of whom are professionals such as pilots etc The amount of abductions and the physical trace evidence left after encounters (Increased radiation at the spot of sighting etc have all been proved!).


Theres all this!!! - Yet you guys say 'its just witness testomony thus unreliable'.

I can clearly see that there is something here that requires investigation - the results of which may be the most interesting thing mankind discovers.

Yet all we have is people LAUGHING AND MOCKING without researching the subject unbiasedly. Exactly as the government realised they needed to cover up the subject! See bookings report - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Report


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Diploid]
    #4768460 - 10/07/05 07:42 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The answer to that for me lies in the nature of government ie they want to maintain power and control not encite anarchy - look at war of the worlds...

I believe it because I have seen it with my own two eyes.

Not because I believe some bullshit cult or hoax artists like Adamski.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4768546 - 10/07/05 07:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

First of all, the extent of the chaos that came from the War of the Worlds broadcast is wildly exagerrated, it's been blown out of proportions and become kind of an urban legend. Also, keep in mind that War of the Worlds is a story about a large scale alien attack, no simply a sighting. Claiming that the reaction of people who are told that they are being invaded and slaughtered is somehow indicative of the reactions of people who simply think they're being visited is a huge stretch.

The fact that there are so many incidents, yet no solid evidence is something that you're not giving any weight. You seem to think that it must be a coincidence or something. The odds of there being no solid evidence are extremely unlikely... unless there's some other factor. You might claim that this other factor is government intervention... as though they have the godlike ability to supress any photograph that is taken, any piece of evidence that materializes before it is disseminated to the public. Quite frankly, it's not difficult to get information to major media outlets before government officials find out about things. They aren't hiding under your bed.

Another factor that could explain the lack of evidence could be in the study of legends and the psychology of belief. It's quite well documented that people who form a belief will persist in believing that, no matter what evidence is presented against it.

In fact, sometimes challenging a belief produces a defense mechanism that makes it stronger. People exagerrate their stories to prove themselves correct... and they're aren't exactly lying, they do this subconciously, and believe every word of what they say.

People don't like to consider the idea that their memories may be flawed. Nor do they like to consider the idea that their most important beliefs may be incorrect, and when these things are challenged with good arguments or evidence against them, they dig their heels into the ground and believe more strongly.

Memories can most definitely be flawed. This has been well documented in studies relating to witness evidence in the courtroom. People will drastically change their memories of what a person looks like, sometimes, not just forgetting, but actually changing in their minds the length of hair, clothing someone wore, their height, etc... yet still remain absolutely sure that they remember correctly.

Lots of people believe lots of things that they've seen with their own two eyes... and many of them are STILL entirely wrong.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4768617 - 10/07/05 08:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The amount of abductions and the physical trace evidence left after encounters (Increased radiation at the spot of sighting etc have all been proved!).

Whoa, okay. Amount of "abductions" doesn't really mean anything. I don't see how numbers prove shit, the more that the abduction stories are out there, the more likely someone is to have that in their mind, and the more likely they are to have dreams or other kinds of hallucinatory experiences that follow that theme.

As for the "increased radiation at the spot of sightings", are you sure that's significant? There are lots of places on the planet where there are higher levels of radiation in the ground. Highly radioactive materials, like uranium are mined... meaning they're found underground to begin with. Radioactivity occurs naturally. Any researcher worth his salt knows that assuming a cause and effect correlation is a risky thing to do. In all fields of study, you have to be ready to question whether or not the thing you think is causing something, is actually the thing that is causing something.

When you think that something bizarre is happening (ie. extraterrestrial visitors), in order to prove that it is actually occurring, you need to prove that all of the more normal explanations are ruled out. Everyone knows that delusions and hallucinations are not a myth. Insanity defintely exists, we can be 100% sure of that, so in order to be sure that the UFOs are extraterrestrial, we MUST rule out all of the other possibilites that are things we know happen for sure.

When you encounter something like increased radioactivity at the location of a sighting, you've got to rule out the other possibilities, possibilities that we KNOW occur, before you can start assuming strange things like aliens.

What you're doing, is latching onto the possibility that it's aliens first, before anything else, and attacking others for not taking that possibility seriously.

If you want scientists to take you seriously, you'll need to provide the kind of proof their accustomed to. You'll need to prove that the other possibilities are not what's happening, and just saying that "it's really unlikely for a huge amount of people to believe one strange thing, that doesn't make any sense", because that's nonsense. Religion is a huge group of people believing one strange thing. That is something that we KNOW to be possible.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Phluck]
    #4768916 - 10/07/05 09:11 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

the number of supposed abductions are about on par with the number of jesus or elvis sightings...

look at the sheer number of murders that occur where the murderer claims the devil made them do it... are we to assume there's an actual devil out there telling people to kill?

people make shit up all the time, so i don't think the sheer number of reports is very significant at all...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4770255 - 10/08/05 02:48 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Something I just realized:

The more reports of abductions and sightings there are, the less likely/credible the whole UFO case becomes. Because the more reports there are from people, the higher the ratio of sightings to hard evidence becomes. And the less credible the whole case becomes. :[

One should not look at the great body of UFO claims as supportive evidence, but rather opposing evidence. If so many people claim they have seen UFOs, then it is likely someone would cough up some real evidence. This doesn't happen, and weakens the whole case.

I believe there are probably some sort of aliens out there somewhere, but I have no reason to believe we have come in contact with them yet, unless I see for myself or see some real evidence, and not just the speculation of those who want to believe.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #4770410 - 10/08/05 03:34 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Did Travis Walton or any of his friends 'want to believe'?


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4770967 - 10/08/05 06:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

an unbiased view of ufo's...
is such a thing even fundamentaly possible?

Quote:

the number of supposed abductions are about on par with the number of jesus or elvis sightings...

look at the sheer number of murders that occur where the murderer claims the devil made them do it... are we to assume there's an actual devil out there telling people to kill?

people make shit up all the time, so i don't think the sheer number of reports is very significant at all...




well if so many people say they see elvis i think its safe to assume that most of them are absolutely convinced that it was in fact elvis.

now elvis could have doppelgangers but lights in the sky dont have many that arent obviously manmade and can be traced back to its origin.
but there is a great number of 'lights in the sky' even on video that
arent obvious airplanes and cant be traced.

i think at this point its safe to say that something, as of yet unexplained is being witnessed.

and id say the same is true for elves etc.
there is alot to say that seeing elves and seeing ufo's or aliens
are effects or side effects of the same phenomenon.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: The best site for an unbiased overview of the UFO phenomena [Re: Ego Death]
    #4771097 - 10/08/05 06:57 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object#Scientific_UFO_Field_Studies

It appears to me, that the encyclopedia supports my view that these objects are real...
:evil:





And if it's in Wikipedia, well, by golly, it must be true!  :shocked:


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