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OfflineRedstorm
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Catholic church debate
    #4750584 - 10/03/05 07:39 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Redstorm<p>Reason for deletion: People are too stupid to realize how to post on-topic.

Thanks, guys.


Edited by Redstorm (10/05/05 12:04 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Redstorm]
    #4750608 - 10/03/05 07:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting. I was just meeting with the school newspaper staff on my campus to fill out the necessary paperwork for getting an article of mine published. Here's the article:

Quote:

What?s so great about democracy?

Arnold Schwarzenegger recently said that he planned to veto a bill passed by senate Democrats which would allow same-sex couples to marry, explaining that the bill undermined the will of the people of California, who had earlier passed a proposition banning gay marriage. This is certainly an understandable course of action in a democratic society. The people have spoken, and they clearly do not want gay couples to be allowed to marry. But this ignores a more fundamental question: what business do ?the people? have denying such a right to gays in the first place? Why should gay couples have to take the time of day to justify their relationship to an ignorant mob when they?re harming no one?

In America, the politicians have pounded this idea into our heads that democracy equals freedom. Hogwash! Democracy is nothing more than the tyranny of the majority. It is two wolves and a sheep deciding what?s for dinner. In a democracy, 51% of the population can vote away the rights of the other 49%. The founding fathers of this country understood this, which is why, despite popular belief, they did not establish this country as a democracy. They established a constitutional republic, with checks and balances to ensure that minority rights were protected even if the majority wished to do away with them.

Obviously they weren?t entirely consistent in such principles, as evident in the issue of slavery, but this example merely shows another instance of the injustice of majoritarianism. The majority supported slavery, so it was allowed, even though it completely violated the rights of the slaves. The founding fathers were human, after all, and subject to the same prejudices held by others at the time. Thus, they themselves ended up becoming part of the tyranny of the majority. Other historical injustices that were supported by the majority include denying women the right to vote, the internment of Japanese Americans, and the burning of suspected witches.

I am not saying that we should not have democratic elections or that the democratic process is inherently evil. What I am saying is that there are things which are more fundamentally important than majority opinion, such as fairness and human rights. Fairness means equality before the law, which is clearly being denied to the gay community. Human rights means being able to do as one chooses as long as one doesn?t harm others. These principles ought to be the foundation of our political system, not the whims of the ignorant masses. The problem is that even those in power try to play up the importance of majoritarianism. Just because ?the people have spoken? does no mean they have spoken wisely. In fact, sometimes the people speak bigoted slurs rather than being the voice of reason. Next time a politician gives me this ?will of the people? garbage, I?m going to scream.




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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4753075 - 10/04/05 08:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4753135 - 10/04/05 09:29 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I support gay marriage, but do you believe that a natural "right" to be married exists? A natural right usually doesn't involve a man-made ceremony.

Redstorm - Great article man. It's so fucking ridiculous how much red tape their is to do stuff now. When I was clearing some of my land for my range, I was told that I had to "apply" for a "permit" to clear more than X amount of land. Now they told me that they never denied anyone, I just have to have the permit. Guess what? Can you guess? I'll give you just one second here to figure out what I'm going to say next.

















The motherfucking permit was fifteen hundred dollars, based on how much land I wanted to clear. "Everyone gets approved, so it's totally useless to even have such a policy, but you've got to feed the machine and the machine needs money". So I just didn't get the permit, cleared the land and that was that. Fucking government, man.


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
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Registered: 09/28/05
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4753139 - 10/04/05 09:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Also, good point. The federal government should list our basic rights to that they are secured. If the majority of the people in Mississippi want to legalize lynchings, tough shit, thats illegal on a FEDERAL level because it impinges upon someones basic rights.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4753391 - 10/04/05 11:24 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Warrior14 said:
I support gay marriage, but do you believe that a natural "right" to be married exists? A natural right usually doesn't involve a man-made ceremony.



To me, the marriage issue isn't so much about "natural" rights so much as it's about equal rights. If gays aren't allowed to marry, then neither should straight people.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4753443 - 10/04/05 11:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

well written, but I fear that having an article like
this published under your name isn't going to bode well
for you and the ladies...expect many new gay suitors.

; ]


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: afoaf]
    #4753477 - 10/04/05 11:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, chicks love to try and "convert" gay guys.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Redstorm]
    #4754111 - 10/04/05 02:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Both of you have written very excellent articles.


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Outdoor Mushroom Cultivation


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755381 - 10/04/05 07:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Warrior14 said:
I support gay marriage, but do you believe that a natural "right" to be married exists? A natural right usually doesn't involve a man-made ceremony.



To me, the marriage issue isn't so much about "natural" rights so much as it's about equal rights. If gays aren't allowed to marry, then neither should straight people.




Should homosexuals be 'able' to be Catholic priests?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4755393 - 10/04/05 07:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Warrior14 said:
Should homosexuals be 'able' to be Catholic priests?



They already are, and have been for some time.


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755396 - 10/04/05 07:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Should homosexuals be 'able' to be Catholic priests?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4755398 - 10/04/05 07:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

yes


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755402 - 10/04/05 07:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So part of your idea of freedom is telling private organizations how they should think and run their organizations?


Doesn't sound too original...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4755412 - 10/04/05 07:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Warrior14 said:
So part of your idea of freedom is telling private organizations how they should think and run their organizations?



Don't give me that bullshit. I was just giving my opinion on how they could best run their organization. I never said the Catholic church had to comply, or that it should be made into law. Please cut the crap and use your brain.


Quote:

Doesn't sound too original...




Calling Dr. Godwin... Dr. Godwin, are you there?


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755423 - 10/04/05 07:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So when you said that you think that gays should be able to be priests, what you meant was you think that the Catholic church should fundamentally change, edit the Bible, go against a few thousand years of teaching, just to make some flamers happy? Why should the government have any concern for how a private, not-for-profit, religious organization runs?

Maybe in the interest of "openness", we could ask the ACLU and the SPLC to allow Nazis into their fold. Yea it goes against their entire operating principles, but golly it's fun to mix cultures!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4755436 - 10/04/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Warrior14 said:
So when you said that you think that gays should be able to be priests, what you meant was you think that the Catholic church should fundamentally change, edit the Bible, go against a few thousand years of teaching, just to make some flamers happy?



The Catholic Church already allows gays to be priests.  They have for some time.  I was simply saying that I support that practice.

Quote:

Why should the government have any concern for how a private, not-for-profit, religious organization runs?



I never said anything of the sort.  Please remove head from anus.  thx

Quote:

Maybe in the interest of "openness", we could ask the ACLU and the SPLC to allow Nazis into their fold.  Yea it goes against their entire operating principles, but golly it's fun to mix cultures!



:rolleyes:


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OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755442 - 10/04/05 07:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
The Catholic Church already allows gays to be priests.  They have for some time.  I was simply saying that I support that practice.




I'm sure that at least one homosexual man is married to a woman in the Catholic church. So it looks like gay marriage is going on. Lets stop the bickering and not worry about resolutions?
Quote:


I never said anything of the sort.  Please remove head from anus.  thx




lolzorz, u sed thx! hahahahahahassss
Quote:


:rolleyes:


<comment edited>


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Edited by Warrior14 (10/04/05 07:49 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4755453 - 10/04/05 07:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Warrior14 said:
I'm sure that at least one homosexual man is married to a woman in the Catholic church. So it looks like gay marriage is going on. Lets stop the bickering and not worry about resolutions?



See comment re: head and anus. When you're ready for an intelligent debate, let me know.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Land of the Free(?) [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755473 - 10/04/05 07:57 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Paradigm, baby, what the fuck has got into you. You are being inordinately shrill here. Yeah, homos have been priests. But they were never allowed to be priests by the rule enforcing intelligentsia (oxymoron, I know) of the Catholic church, only by the wink wink keep your thingy in your pants and we won't care cabal. Well, 40,000 cornholed altar boys later (the number is for effect and may be low or high) maybe they should stop the winking policy. And what the fuck do you care, it's not your club. If they commit crimes they will be prosecuted. If it's organizational, a lot of people not in the room will be prosecuted as well. Fuck, man, take a breath.


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