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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4753887 - 10/04/05 01:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
So, only the act was important, not the things that led to it? Heaven forbid we figure out what needs to be stopped so this doesn't happen over and over.



That seems to be the attitude behind the War on Terror.



Thinking the exact same thing. The complete aversion some on this forum have had to even considering the most rational reasons for islamic terrorism are making more and more sense (psychologically at least).


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4754054 - 10/04/05 01:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How does one make a guess what the most "rational" reasons for Islamic terrorism might be when those murdering in the name of an imaginary being are by definition acting irrationally?

What do you believe the most rational reason for the latest attacks in Bali might be, for starters?




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4754073 - 10/04/05 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
it should be easy to imagine a career path from columbine bowler to abu ghraib interrogator and possibly even worse in the future...



Only if you have a very wild imagination.




do you really think that ppl change that much after they graduate HS??...maybe some do..but others dont..and try to move on to..what is in their minds..bigger and better things...




Yes, they do. It is the minority that keep up this sort of behavior after they graduate. I haven't seen this sort of behavior more than a handful of times since I've graduated. As terrible as it is, it is an inevitable feature of the teenage years.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Phred]
    #4754267 - 10/04/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


How does one make a guess what the most "rational" reasons for Islamic terrorism might be when those murdering in the name of an imaginary being are by definition acting irrationally?



Shades of gray, Pinky. Though an action itself may be irrational from our perspective (the act of crashing planes into buildings filled with innocents, for instance), that does not mean that there was no rational justification for being angry or despairing, regardless of whether or not you or I feel those emotions on any scale could justify doing what some have done. The actions taken by the Columbine murderers is certainly irrational, but that does not mean they were not justified in feeling the way they did -- knowledge of how they got to feel that way can help prevent another such irrational act from occuring in the future. Likewise with terrorism -- to dismiss it as irrational behaviour and give it no more thought is all too easy. But some of these people, whether you are willing to admit it to yourself or not, DO have valid grievances, even if their vigilante justice is abominable. To completely dismiss such grievances outright is to consign ourselves to a never-ending problem.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4754616 - 10/04/05 04:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I understand what you are trying to get at. What I am trying to point out (in the case of Islamic terrorism, mind... not in the case of the Columbine murderers) is that discovering the reason irrational people do what they do is not necessarily helpful.

While it may be argued that some of the Islamic terrorists are pissed off at US and Israeli "interference" in the Muslim world, it is patently obvious that a great many of them are pissed off at non-Muslims (and in many cases, even other Muslims who aren't the right flavor of Muslim) in general. How does understanding their grievance help us prevent them from doing what they do -- in the case of Bali for example, seething against Hindus? What about the nine terrorists recently arrested in France before they could carry out their planned attack on the Metro? Or the situation in Thailand? What can Bali do (or stop doing) to prevent further attacks? What can Thailand do? France? Morocco?

What about these guys who freak out over a secretary in a government office having a coffee cup with a picture of Piglet on it? Or the ones seething because they believed the stylized rendition of an ice cream swirl on a Burger King milkshake cup is an insult to Allah? Tell me truthfully, now -- would you have been surprised to hear on the news one day that some jihadi had bombed a Burger King over it?

Me neither.





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Phred]
    #4754646 - 10/04/05 04:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree completely. While some of their grievances are reasonable (or at least understandable), they are many more that are entirely unreasonable. Many extremist Muslims believe that the Iberian Peninsula should be returned to them. That is not only absurd, but pretty much impossible as well. There are many other things like that that the terrorists want which we can not possibly give them.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Redstorm]
    #4754665 - 10/04/05 04:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The whole killing innocent women, children, the elderly...etc as a political tool to sway people to their ideas is only successful if you acknowledge that method as reasonable. As such the only proper response is death... to all of them.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4754706 - 10/04/05 04:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

My apologies to Annapurna1 for taking this thread so far off topic. To get back to the points raised in the article about Columbine High School (those interested in discussing terrorist motives can go to this thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4756491/an/0/page/0 if they like) ...

Parents have been trying for decades to get schools to take a harder line with bullies. It will never be possible to eliminate bullying (especially of a psychological nature) in schools. But it can certainly be reduced -- if and only if parents demand teachers and school administrators take sterner measures, then support those teachers and administrators when they do.




Phred


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755214 - 10/04/05 06:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
do you really think that ppl change that much after they graduate HS??



I know they do. I've seen it myself in the 4 years that I've been out of High School. They may not change entirely, but I don't see bullies pushing nerds into lockers at the age of 23.




in other words..they trade pushing nerds into lockers for waterboarding POWs at gitmo..etc...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4755220 - 10/04/05 06:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
So, only the act was important, not the things that led to it? Heaven forbid we figure out what needs to be stopped so this doesn't happen over and over.



That seems to be the attitude behind the War on Terror.




I would disagree. The whole idea to invading Iraq was to be bring democracy to the Middle East and thus give young muslims something else to do with their lives then then blowing up Westerners. That was the idea anyway.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4755337 - 10/04/05 07:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
do you really think that ppl change that much after they graduate HS??



I know they do.  I've seen it myself in the 4 years that I've been out of High School.  They may not change entirely, but I don't see bullies pushing nerds into lockers at the age of 23.




in other words..they trade pushing nerds into lockers for waterboarding POWs at gitmo..etc...



:shake:


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4755340 - 10/04/05 07:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
So, only the act was important, not the things that led to it? Heaven forbid we figure out what needs to be stopped so this doesn't happen over and over.



That seems to be the attitude behind the War on Terror.




I would disagree. The whole idea to invading Iraq was to be bring democracy to the Middle East and thus give young muslims something else to do with their lives then then blowing up Westerners. That was the idea anyway.



Something other to do with their lives? Are you suggesting they were blowing themselves up because they were bored?


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4755628 - 10/04/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I would disagree. The whole idea to invading Iraq was to be bring democracy to the Middle East and thus give young muslims something else to do with their lives then then blowing up Westerners. That was the idea anyway.




:rotfl:...or did you mean it as sarcasm...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4756701 - 10/05/05 12:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
So, only the act was important, not the things that led to it? Heaven forbid we figure out what needs to be stopped so this doesn't happen over and over.



That seems to be the attitude behind the War on Terror.




I would disagree. The whole idea to invading Iraq was to be bring democracy to the Middle East and thus give young muslims something else to do with their lives then then blowing up Westerners. That was the idea anyway.



Something other to do with their lives? Are you suggesting they were blowing themselves up because they were bored?




The theory is because of the repressive conditions in their own country (Saudi Arabia and Egypt mainly)they cannot find work or express themselves politically so they project their hostilities towards the images of Americans and Israelis they are bombarded with everyday on TV and join militant Islam. Iraq, the Lebenon vote and the Palestinian election were supposed to help 'drain the swamp'. I would tend to agree with the idea. Many of the 911 hijackers were angry at their own governments and unable to find jobs in their native countries. There is a large class of young men in the middle east who are unemplyed and have no future. These are the ones who are drawn to radical Islam and violence, it's like most forms of hatred violence, projecting your own problems onto somebody else. They have no power over their own lives in Egypt or Saudi Arabia so they feel they can legitimate and give purpose to their existance by fighting against the infidels of the West.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4774784 - 10/09/05 12:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

looner2 said:
The whole killing innocent women, children, the elderly...etc as a political tool to sway people to their ideas is only successful if you acknowledge that method as reasonable. As such the only proper response is death... to all of them.




Your reasoning cannot stop the problem at hand because it is the SAME EXACT REASONING they use against us. It will result in destruction of both parties.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: columbine ..bush HS??... [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4776653 - 10/09/05 01:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:The theory is because of the repressive conditions in their own country (Saudi Arabia and Egypt mainly)they cannot find work or express themselves politically so they project their hostilities towards the images of Americans and Israelis they are bombarded with everyday on TV and join militant Islam. Iraq, the Lebenon vote and the Palestinian election were supposed to help 'drain the swamp'. I would tend to agree with the idea. Many of the 911 hijackers were angry at their own governments and unable to find jobs in their native countries. There is a large class of young men in the middle east who are unemplyed and have no future. These are the ones who are drawn to radical Islam and violence, it's like most forms of hatred violence, projecting your own problems onto somebody else. They have no power over their own lives in Egypt or Saudi Arabia so they feel they can legitimate and give purpose to their existance by fighting against the infidels of the West.




actually..ive seen more of that type of logic from neocon toadys in this country...ill offer as an example the bulk of responses from americans to al-jazeera (dont be surprised that said toadys dont know how to spell)...even better examples are available from the AOL message boards.. unfortunately..however..they require a membership..so i wont post a link...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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