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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs
    #4745958 - 10/02/05 07:07 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

What we're dealing with here is an alteration of consciousness. Unlike alcohol intoxication, psychedlics such as marijuana and LSD do not in and of themselves impair our operating ablilities. That is, they do not act on the body, but rather the mind. Where, then, does the apparent bodily impairment come from? I'm not asking this whimsically??I want an answer.
Because
I suspect these substances have the same potential to help our abilities as to hinder them. But we're so clumsy! It's a learned quality, a laziness enforced with pleasure. We're conditioned to be numb and dumb, and then we smoke marijuana or drop LSD and we're glued to our seats, afraid. But we could be doing so much with this state! It's as Ken Kesey was supposed to have said: "We need to learn to function in this state."

I relate this thought to musical improvisation because that's what I'm familiar with, but it applies to everything. All creation is reliant upon a coordination between body and mind. Marijuana and LSD potentiate a truly novel operating field, a source where grace and precision in the moment are more important than static aesthetics. Thus musical improvisation becomes a bodily dance exemplifying the more harmonius aspects of mind??those dealing with beauty, grace, logic, precision. Nothing is ignored. Everything fits.

But if only our bodies could keep up! That is, why not abandon your fear, so that your learning process (muscle memory in music; practice) becomes obsolete, and your freedom of expression is no longer reliant upon learned maneuvers, but totally natural, necessary, innovative without being forced or invasive?

We need the confidence to dive into the psychedelic experience without feeling the need to bring something back. We need the courage to realize the psychedlic state for what it is: A perfectly natura, completely novel sentience; an entirely weightless frame of reference; an emissions-free test zone; a goody-bagless birthday party; the freedom that our pleasure-ridden former selves are so afraid of; the time of our life.

What do you talk about when you talk about drugs?


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"


Edited by IgnatiusJReilly (10/03/05 07:25 PM)


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4746059 - 10/02/05 07:33 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

When I talk about drugs, it is usually with those questioning the perceived effects on the consumer, or with those that hold a negative predisposition towards them, which I try to supplement with the positive attributes of the various experiences in question.

While I do agree that psychedelics offer us a natural, novel, and weightless frame of reference; I cannot agree that they do not, in and of themselves, impair our mechanical operating abilities. We must not forget that though our mind and body can be thought to operate independent of one another, they are inevitably intertwined and what affects one will more often than not affect the other. Thus, the mental "impairment" from taking a psychedelic will result in our minds not being able to process information in the same manner as in our sober state. Of course, as with everything, behavioral conditioning will play a great role, supported by the fact that we are often sober more than we are under the influence of a psychedelic; thus we are better conditioned to handle various activities in the sober state of mind.

Let us not forget that there are alcoholics out there who drive a car better while under the influence of a dose of alcohol that would likely cause you or I to drive quite poorly, simply because of the behavioral conditioning they have underwent over years of drinking and driving. These alcoholics have essentially rewired their brains to operate more effectively (or perhaps the term should be more familiarly) when under the influence, so much so that when they have not consumed any alcohol, they become disoriented and have forgotten how to effectively maneuver their vehicle in the sober state. This is an extreme example, but one that is valid when trying to prove that psychedelics such as marijuana and LSD can actually help us improve our mechanical abilities. No doubt, if one were to dose a psychedelic everyday of their life for many years (and subsequently go driving), after some time they would likely be a more proficient driver under the influence, than they would be otherwise.

That then explains my view of the psychological and behavioral reasoning behind using substances to improve our abilities. As I am not well versed in biology and chemistry, I cannot as easily comment on the physiological aspects of any type of drug consumption. Being that there is much less known about the specific actions of psychedelics such as LSD and marijuana on our organs and systems with respect to alcohol, it is difficult to prove that psychedelics do or do-not actively sedate our bodies through a chemical process unrelated to our mind. However, I am of the belief that a drug like marijuana does contain natural sedative properties that are not induced from our mental state - and if this is the case, then we circle back to behavioral conditioning as the only functional method for using a drug to increase our skill sets.


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: geokills]
    #4746110 - 10/02/05 07:45 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I would like to add one more comment to my above commentary; specifically that I do believe there are certain activities or skills that may benefit from the altered perception caused as a result of ingesting a psychedelic substance. This thought came to mind after reading Deviate's [high doeses of marijuana and a strange phenomenon] thread. As you coined, the "weightless frame of reference" from a psychedelic experience should indeed help one to think with a greater objectivity in evaluating products of their own being. Music being the primary example here, in the altered state I believe one can be freed from the repetitive and well-known cycles of their sober state, and thus released into a dynamic and not so self-critical view of how they would like their music to be composed. Likewise, anything involving spontaneous thought in coordinating a physical movement designed to convey a self-expression, could be positively affected; such as the aforementioned musical composition, painting, and even sexual intercourse!


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··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: geokills]
    #4746213 - 10/02/05 08:09 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Great reads! :thumbup: 

I supose these substances do act on us physiologically, but unlike alcohol, they do not seem to impair us outside of our own minds.  Hence I speak of fear and doubt as contributing factors to frigidness, awkwardness;  can our heuristics that we pattern ourselves after be superceded?  That's where I feel the fear comes from when experiencing psychelics??in letting go of our conventional thought patterns.  In being flooded with novel insight. 

This is a common thought.  But like you said, this state may help in perfecting spontaneous acts.  As though the mentality they invoke is necessary for improvisation.  It's about courage, I guess.  Courage being the state where self deprecation is not considered decadent or even possible; in short, zen-mind. 

I just find it so fascinating, and stuff.


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4748654 - 10/03/05 11:40 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

We can reprogram ourselves but it is hard as many actions are unconcious!

You'd have to conciously take control of the individual action you want to change.

But would it soon become robotic again?

The minds method of simplifying repeated actions?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: Ego Death]
    #4748707 - 10/03/05 11:59 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"Unlike alcohol intoxication, psychedlics such as marijuana and LSD do not in and of themselves impair our operating ablilities."

HAHAHAH!! yeah, ok... I remember trying to dial a phone on an eigth, and after 10 minutes I just gave up...

"That is, they do not act on the body, but rather the mind. Where, then, does the apparent bodily impairment come from? I'm not asking this whimsically??I want an answer."

I assure you that they act very much on the body, just like alcohol and opium, and weed. The bodily impairment comes, as you said, from the unfamiliarity of being in that state. When you start drinking you have to get your "drug legs" (a word play off of "sea-legs"). Becoming more familiar with the state enables you to manuever around inside it with more ease. But at the same time, you're still going to fuck up a little bit, cuz, let's face it, your on drugs.

as for what I talk about when i talk about drugs? Well to be honest I don't like talking about drugs anymore... I just don't find the conversations interesting anymore, and when all the conversations involve drugs I start to feel like an addict... because I am.


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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4748861 - 10/03/05 12:54 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I used to be such an elitist about acid and pot vs alcohol

still am, but

I have observed the effects maybe 1000 times or more from one or another entheogen (not including alcohol - 1000's of experiences there too) and I do find that there are strong common areas.

I think that with psychedellics I can stay awake in the face of the effects better and get sick less. but the primary effect of frame stacking is there. vibrations, looping, sensuous enrichment, color enrichment and distortion all have some presence in the alcohol daze and in the entheogen high.

I guess it means if there is nothing better wine beer or tequila will have to do.


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I can) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4750117 - 10/03/05 05:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Not for my purposes, or those which I think users of psychedelics should be concerned with. It boils down to a learning process, and while I am an alcohol afficionado (I like to get drunk), I don't feel drunkeness promotes an awareness of bodily genius. Marijuana and other psychedelics promote an awareness of the potential for genius in the body. It's a matter of overcoming the paralyses experienced by the mind and coordinating our body movements gracefully. Musicians, I believe, understand this necessity for coordination between body and mind in the psychedelic state more readily than, say, a deconstructionist essay writer.


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"A Bad Day for Pants"


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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I c [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4751275 - 10/03/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"That is, they do not act on the body, but rather the mind."

don't forget...the mind is made of physical things (neurons). the mind is as much a part of the body as any other part is. it would be more precise to say that chemicals such as LSD only affect the matter in our brains, and not the matter in other parts. (you know, the whole keyhole thing. about how psychedlics find the synapses and get in there and make things work differently)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I c [Re: Ego Death]
    #4751824 - 10/04/05 12:07 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
We can reprogram ourselves but it is hard as many actions are unconcious!

You'd have to conciously take control of the individual action you want to change.

But would it soon become robotic again?

The minds method of simplifying repeated actions?



Yes, that's a real catch 22. Anything new becomes old, perhaps even psychedelia. When I first got stoned I didn't know how to walk. I mean... I literally didn't know. I had to rediscover walking as if for the first time. It's like your mind has different control stations in charge of various things, bodily functions, familiar thoughts, etc... and weed puts you in an entirely new one.

So on the one hand, you can use weed to fine tune something and become graceful at it, and on the other hand once you're sober all that work may have gone to waste, and in fact, for me at least, once i'm not stoned my motor control kind of sucks for a while.

The big positive is that though you are no longer given a clean slate to learn and explore with, the general mindstate of an experimenter or an engineer fine tuning... himself.... stays.... and you can apply the general "high" mindset when sober to perform activities better.

The goal is to be in a zen mind like stoned state without being stoned... to harvest that naturally. If you keep using ... eventually your mind gets so used to the high activities that they no longer provide the comfortable yet vulnerable mindstate necessary to do things NEWLY and more importantly FOR THE FIRST TIME.

there's a reason eating while high tastes so good, and that's because you are experiencing taste for the FIRST TIME because you are accessing taste itself in an unadultered completely focused upon concept.

Weed is all about forming new frameworks to reinvent concepts .... it's about returning to infancy with the benefit of having all your knowledge that you already know. It's about supreceding muscle memory, about gaining control of the previous sub/non/conscious.

I do think if you quit weed for a while much of the novelty will come back though as things get filtered back out of your scrutiny and into "muscle memory" and then you can take them out of muscle memory and give them direct focus again.

It's all complicated and hard to say with my limited knowledge of the relationship between mind and everything else you perceive and eventually filter away to be ignored.

I guess to put it bluntly (hehe) weed strips away filters and shifts awareness to what lies beneath. Playing guitar may be something you don't think about [not in a zen way], this also means you can't improve about it. But you puff on that J and even though you've played smells like teen spirit 4000 times... you now focus on the SUBTLE LITTLE NUANCES of playing that you never even knew existed before, whereas before you'd just be like "fuck let's play teen spirit" and you'd just do it, and it would sound exactly the same as it always sounds... because the process of learning is filtered away.

Hmm.....weed takes you back to the learning process.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (10/04/05 12:12 AM)


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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I c [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4753036 - 10/04/05 08:02 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

" as Ken Kesey was supposed to have said: "We need to learn to function in this state."

That's exactly what came to my mind on my first trip. I saw myself as a puppeteer and my body as a puppet, and I felt the need to experience how good of a puppeteer I was. As I was excited about this new found idea and this new found state of being, I decided to test myself. I took my car and drove around. I went to a track field and ran two laps. I wondered around with my car having no destination in mind.
It was awesome, it was like being born again.

As for what I talk about when I talk about psychedelics, it usually concerns the potential spiritual benefits they can bring, but I realized not many people have any idea of what I try to say, so now I just shut up.

That's the main reason why I first came to the Shroomery. To find people that "know".


--------------------


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I c [Re: exclusive58]
    #4754033 - 10/04/05 01:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Puppeteer is a good analogy for the control the mind has over the body. It is a system of interdependance, but it's the cognitive functions becoming manifest in the body that I'm concerned with. I look at psychedelics as an opportunity for reprogramming. Heuristics are good. So are gestalts. But it's refreshing to build new crutches from time to time. I want to build many personalities, each with a unique sense of the relationship between body and mind.


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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs (I'm gonna write this as cheesy and drawn out as I c [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4754345 - 10/04/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

drugs..


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Re: What We Talk About When We Talk About Drugs [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4754444 - 10/04/05 03:29 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

IgnatiusJReilly said:
What we're dealing with here is an alteration of consciousness. Unlike alcohol intoxication, psychedlics such as marijuana and LSD do not in and of themselves impair our operating ablilities. That is, they do not act on the body, but rather the mind. Where, then, does the apparent bodily impairment come from? I'm not asking this whimsically??I want an answer.
Because
I suspect these substances have the same potential to help our abilities as to hinder them. But we're so clumsy! It's a learned quality, a laziness enforced with pleasure. We're conditioned to be numb and dumb, and then we smoke marijuana or drop LSD and we're glued to our seats, afraid. But we could be doing so much with this state! It's as Ken Kesey was supposed to have said: "We need to learn to function in this state."

I relate this thought to musical improvisation because that's what I'm familiar with, but it applies to everything. All creation is reliant upon a coordination between body and mind. Marijuana and LSD potentiate a truly novel operating field, a source where grace and precision in the moment are more important than static aesthetics. Thus musical improvisation becomes a bodily dance exemplifying the more harmonius aspects of mind??those dealing with beauty, grace, logic, precision. Nothing is ignored. Everything fits.

But if only our bodies could keep up! That is, why not abandon your fear, so that your learning process (muscle memory in music; practice) becomes obsolete, and your freedom of expression is no longer reliant upon learned maneuvers, but totally natural, necessary, innovative without being forced or invasive?

We need the confidence to dive into the psychedelic experience without feeling the need to bring something back. We need the courage to realize the psychedlic state for what it is: A perfectly natura, completely novel sentience; an entirely weightless frame of reference; an emissions-free test zone; a goody-bagless birthday party; the freedom that our pleasure-ridden former selves are so afraid of; the time of our life.

What do you talk about when you talk about drugs?




and where is the line between mind and body? brain is mind, and brain is body too. Brain works on chemicals and electricity/energy, that's why chemicals and energy can alter your MIND


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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