Home | Community | Message Board


World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people
    #4737858 - 09/30/05 07:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

it's funny when we hear pat robertson call for the assassination of venezuela's president hugo chavez. it boggles my mind actually because isn't that what terrorism is? they call him a dictator, and yet, look what he has done, a new economic order, a responsible one. a government that actually does care for it's people.

after the bolivian revolution...the people of venezuela can now remove themselves from the illiterecy zone. that's right!!!

3 million venezuelans who have always been excluded because of poverty, are now part of primary and secondary higher studies.

17 million (roughly 70% of the population) are reciveing UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, including medicine. in a few years all Venezuelans (25 million people) will have free access to an excellent health care service.

more than a million tones of food are channeled to over 12 million people at subsidised prices to over 12 million people.

more than 700,000 jobs have been created, thus reducing unemployment by 9 percent.

all in the midst of internal and external aggression, including a coup, d'etat and an oil industry shutdown organised by washington.

US is the only country wher ea person is able to call for the assassination of a head of state, that is international terrorsim.

it's funny that the united states is that largest exporter of arms in the world, selling to 13 of 25 countries deemed undemocratic, including countries in the middle east in 2003.

United states has bombed so many countries since ww2, and yet, since that time, NO DEMOCRACIES have been made, save this weak one in iraq.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: kaiowas]
    #4737939 - 09/30/05 07:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I think one of the most foolish things a government can do is care for its people. A government (if there even is such a thing as a collective consciousness known as a government) needs to care for itself. And individuals need to care for themselves in the same way - by promoting the type of society they wish to have.

What allegedly works in Venezuela (I just rented 'Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle' and want to watch it and don't have time to check these numbers out. And come to think of it, I wouldn't even know how) probably won't work in the US. At least not at the moment.

If Venezuela can sustain success, more power to it. If I didn't hate spanish food, I'd probably love living there.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 491
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: kaiowas]
    #4737944 - 09/30/05 07:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Benevolent dictatorships. Freedom for prosperity and security. Never worked.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: kaiowas]
    #4738017 - 09/30/05 08:06 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Hugo Chavez is an elected leader. International observers at his last election confirmed that the reported figures matched their polls. It is most likely that the election was fair.

He is up for reelection next year, and has around a 50% approval rating with the Venezualan people.

He is a communist, and an enemy of the government of the United States. He has not shown himself to be a despot.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe14thWarrior
The Shootist

Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 491
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: phi1618]
    #4738066 - 09/30/05 08:15 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Most of that is true. I really don't trust exit polls, but I have no evidence that the elections were rigged so I won't claim it.

The problem with democracy, one that our founding fathers attempted to excise with the Constitutional protections, is that the majority can always enforce their will over the minority. In the United States we, theoretically, have basic protections under the Constitution. Again, theoretically, the government can't act against those basic protections, so even if you the vast majority supports it, you can't reinstitute slavery for the minority.

I do not beleive that Venezuela has such protections. I believe that the "Worker class" is trampling the means of production and the people who used to control them.

Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Most benevolent dictatorships last about 10 years before imploding.

Our leaders need to realize a few things;

First, they need to realize that our country is strongest and more free when the Constitution is followed. We need to have our right protected and assured by the government. It is the best way to live and it shines a bright beacon for the world to follow

Second, the Federal government needs to have faith in democracy. If the democratic nation is run according to Jeffersonian principles [for example, small federal government that protects and lists basic rights of every citizen, minimal taxation, a government that truely is of the people, operated on state and local levels, etc.] then it is going to suceed. We don't need to separate ourselves from guys like Chavez. People with political intellect will be able to compare Chavez to the other benevolent dictators throughout history and see that his actions are paralleling those individuals. We need to stop pissing people off so much, to truely cut down on terrorism.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4738121 - 09/30/05 08:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I'm no communist, but the election in of Chavez in Venezuala, like the Cuban revolution, was a response to a real problem. The slogan of many of those that elected him was "We are hungry."

This is pretty simple and direct, and is not an issue in America. I believe that it is our responsablilty and our best policy to respect the people of other nations, and recognize that they may need to take measures which we wouldn't consider in order to address problems that we don't have.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Classified
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: The14thWarrior]
    #4738145 - 09/30/05 08:27 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Warrior14 said:
Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  Most benevolent dictatorships last about 10 years before imploding.



Ours hasn't. Then again, the US government has been clever enough to make parties of it under the name of "Democrats" and "Republicans" and we eat their excrement with a spoon. More, please. The different party will have an impact on my life.

Chavez a dictactor  :rolleyes: The election is next year, by the way.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: kaiowas]
    #4738180 - 09/30/05 08:33 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Chavez Secretly Creating Venezuelan Utopia
by Scott Ott

(2005-02-13) -- With little international fanfare, Venezuela's popular President Hugo Chavez is quietly overseeing creation of a utopian society similar to Fidel Castro's Cuba, according to experts at several U.S. universities.

"Venezuela, an oil-rich land of 25 million citizens, has suffered for years under the vagaries of democracy and capitalism," said an unnamed professor at the University of Colorado (C.U.), "but Mr. Chavez has ushered in a new golden age of Venezuelan glory by...
-- unifying the judiciary,
-- reducing annoying dissent,
-- encouraging poor people to move onto land owned by rich people and grow crops,
-- replenishing the nation's supply of peacekeeping AK-47s and Russian military helicopters, and
-- replacing the old national anthem with a re-written John Denver song, "Almost Heaven, Venezuela."

The economy is expected to boom in the coming years, the expert added, as investors pour their resources into a nation committed to the common good of all of its citizens, and to stability and uniformity at the highest levels of government.

"When you look at the success of Castro's Cuba, you get an idea of what's possible if Chavez follows the same time-tested success principles," the C.U. professor said. "Venezuela will become a model of a new progressive vision for human societies worldwide."


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: kaiowas]
    #4738314 - 09/30/05 09:02 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

US is the only country wher ea person is able to call for the assassination of a head of state, that is international terrorsim.




Can you please explain this? I could have sworn I heard someone from another country call for the death of Bush.

Where do you think the money comes from to provide free health care in a country that was piss poor? Where do they get money to subsidize food?

Think, man.

The US doesn't have significant natural resources, that is why US society relies on work, entrepreneurship, and intellectual property to thrive. You can't just make money and value out of thin air.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: Catalysis]
    #4738349 - 09/30/05 09:09 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The US doesn't have significant natural resources



???

What US do you live in?
We have coal, timber, arable land, natural gas, used to have some really good oil deposits, uranium, phosphates, potash, various industrial metals... the list goes on and on.

We depend on other countries natural resources for two reasons:
1) As a long-time industrialized nation, we have depleted many of our own resources
2) We can


The US is one of the most natural resource rich nations on earth. If you want to take an example of a nation that is successful in spite of a deficit in natural resources, look to Japan.


Natural resources are not a predictor of the success of a nation. Frequently, the profits from the exploitation of natural resources are taken entirely by a small ruling class, leaving the rest of the people up shit creek.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4738372 - 09/30/05 09:14 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

apparently these people haven't seen what daily life in cuba is really like.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: afoaf]
    #4738409 - 09/30/05 09:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Have you?

I've never been to Cuba, but a good freind spent a couple months there a few years ago. His impression was that the people were poor by western standards, but not starving. Also, very proud.


Granted, they do economic troubles. However, I think many of these can be reduced to two:
An economy overly dependent on sugar production.
The US embargo.

I'm sure state control of the means of production doesn't help.


I'm not sure how the lot of the average Cuban now compares to how it was before the revolution.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: phi1618]
    #4738484 - 09/30/05 09:42 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

afoaf has talked extensively on his travels to Cuba. I trust his opinion on the subject.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: Silversoul]
    #4738535 - 09/30/05 09:53 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

That's cool - he knows more than me.
But, I'd like to hear from him.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: phi1618]
    #4738576 - 09/30/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"Since 1991, this island nation of nearly 11 million people has been locked in what the Communist Party of Cuba euphemistically calls the "special period." The term refers to the loss of economic subsidies from the former Soviet Union: That loss has contributed to as much as a 40% shrinkage of the Cuban economy in the 1990s. Coupled with a tightening of the U.S. embargo in 1996--after two sons of Cuban-American exiles were shot down and killed for invading Cuban airspace--it is a time of hardship that leaves many Cubans hungry at night and vulnerable every day to outbreaks of epidemic disease.

Spare parts for the U.S.-made system that treats most of Cuba's drinking water are no longer available because of the economic embargo. According to the American Association for World Health, the U.S. committee for the World Health Organization, morbidity rates for waterborne diseases in Cuba have doubled since 1989, and dirty water has been linked to rising hospital outbreaks of infections such as sepsis. There were 51 outbreaks in 1995, affecting 349 patients and causing 60 deaths.


The individual who has followed his dreams in this "workers' paradise" today might be a taxi driver who, on a rain-soaked Havana night, explains to a visitor that he is also a cardiologist. "A necessity," he says, tapping his fist lightly on the steering wheel of a rusted junker. "I have to feed my family."
http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/cenear/990111/7702newfocus.html




I hope this embargo ends soon.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 3 months, 14 days
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: Gijith]
    #4738669 - 09/30/05 10:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
I think one of the most foolish things a government can do is care for its people. A government (if there even is such a thing as a collective consciousness known as a government) needs to care for itself. And individuals need to care for themselves in the same way - by promoting the type of society they wish to have.

What allegedly works in Venezuela (I just rented 'Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle' and want to watch it and don't have time to check these numbers out. And come to think of it, I wouldn't even know how) probably won't work in the US. At least not at the moment.

If Venezuela can sustain success, more power to it. If I didn't hate spanish food, I'd probably love living there.




Amen. The last think US needs is a bigger gov't and more socialism.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Classified
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: phi1618]
    #4738679 - 09/30/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Reports of Cuba vary. Some think the people are very nice, very in support of Castro, enjoy their living conditions. Other find Castro to be a lunatic and worthy of the removal of power as soon as possible. From what I have read, Castro is a paranoid murderer who suppresses any form of free thought and routinely jails and kills dissenders. But on that token, I do not believe Cuba would be any worse under another one of those third-world right-wing dictactorships the US has a sexual fixation with installing. Batista's son would be in power right now if he was never overthrown by Castro and Che. Or the country would be in civil war, at the least.

I'd like to visit Cuba one day and find out for myself, but you know, my free country prevents me from doing so.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: bukkake]
    #4738686 - 09/30/05 10:45 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Castro will rule until he dies. Which should be pretty soon, now.
Then, things will change for Cuba.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Classified
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: phi1618]
    #4738691 - 09/30/05 10:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Damn right. We'll assassinate his successor or compromise with him and our fruit companies will be in there ASAP. Then those little brown Cubans can slave over and work to import crops.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: america can learn from venezuela, a government who actually cares for its people [Re: Catalysis]
    #4738833 - 09/30/05 11:29 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"I could have sworn I heard someone from another country call for the death of Bush"

when anyone else calls for violence, their opinions automatically condemned to be terrorist. yet when the US opposes a foreign leader (usually because they're not opening their markets for US investment) no one blinks an eye.

"Where do you think the money comes from to provide free health care in a country that was piss poor? Where do they get money to subsidize food?"

state spending stimulates the economy, generally there are two ways to spend the money.

military or public subsidizing. the us chooses to spend people's taxes on "pre-emptive defense" ie on strengthening the military for attacks of foreign countries. this is because if they spent the money on social structures, there were be community organizing, and people would be informed and empowered to contribute to decisions made by the government. this way the public is kept working to survive without the time to be interested in politics, like they are in Venezuela. Their governemnt helps their own people and in turn the people are more involved. They have a community radio stations which are also centers for public issues to be discussed.



And as far as Cuba goes, they have the most doctors per head in the world. Venezuela is hiring them for public health care and in turn selling oil to Cuba.

look, Cuba has gone through six major hurricanes in seven years between 1996 and 2002 and only 16 people died. in fact they went through one worse than Katrina (160 mile per hour winds) in 2004, 20,000 homes were destroyed and NO ONE DIED. In 2005, the Bush administration cut the funds for levees and flood control in new Orleans by 71.2 million. The money was needed to fund the war in Iraq.

when the crisis hit all the administration did was order the people to flee. it is estimated 28% of the people living there lived below the official poverty line. That and 35% of the black households didn't own a car.

all i am saying is we can learn a lot from other governments that actually care for their people and prepare for disasters at home.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* america and government IDs nonick 838 15 03/20/06 05:34 AM
by tak
* Rethink government programs that reward idiocy
( 1 2 all )
Daishi 1,631 39 09/14/08 08:12 AM
by zouden
* MN bridge disaster.. and more waiting to happen...
Annapurna1
1,390 16 08/05/07 09:08 AM
by zappaisgod
* A Libertarian Challenge
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ancalagon 3,805 66 05/09/05 02:00 PM
by Autonomous
* How Bill Clinton, Al Gored and today's Democratic Congress ruined America's Economy justAkid 2,304 2 09/30/08 02:13 PM
by Seuss
* America is being bought out by foreign investors
( 1 2 all )
The_Red_Crayon 4,309 39 06/02/07 03:53 AM
by FrenchSocialist
* Venezuela to seek Nuclear Power with Iran's Help.
( 1 2 all )
lonestar2004 1,678 21 05/25/05 03:04 PM
by Vvellum
* Has America done anything right?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Innvertigo 5,481 93 03/05/05 11:25 AM
by Great_Satan

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,583 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Phytoextractum
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.097 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.