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OfflineManninee
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BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips
    #4735287 - 09/30/05 06:39 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Many people have noticed that acidic fruit juices enhance the effect of mushrooms, and I'd like to start a discussion on the exact cause of this phenomenon.
Pharmacologists and medics in the late 1980s onwards started to report that many medicines were being potentiated by consumption of grapefruit juice. As well as amplified drug effects, there were also amplified side effects in a few medicines that led to a small number of deaths (eg - Terfenidine , a common anti-allergy drug, was withdrawn).
Bioflavinoids gently inhibit the 'Cytochrome P450' class of liver enzymes that usually scavenge and destroy some of the drugs we ingest. They occur in citrus fruits (most notably grapefruit) and also cranberry as well as many others. Health food and herbal stores often stock bioflavinoid supplements.
It seems that these natural chemicals could be used as a potentiator for entheogens, as an alternative to the harmala alkaloids used in ayahuasca (eg - baniopsteris caapi and syrian rue).

Here is a link to a discussion paper:
[url=http://www.agd.org/library/2005/july/Flanagan.pdf /url]

What do the board reckon to this?


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Offlinestefan
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: Manninee]
    #4735307 - 09/30/05 06:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I thought they only potentiated opiates?


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Offlinenamaste
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: stefan]
    #4735424 - 09/30/05 09:03 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

And amphetamines?

Whenever fasting, fresh sqeezed grapefruit juice is best, it has some pectins(sp)that trick your brain into thinking your full.


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: namaste]
    #4736614 - 09/30/05 02:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Bioflavinoids gently inhibit the 'Cytochrome P450' class of liver enzymes that usually scavenge and destroy some of the drugs we ingest.





It speaks in the .pdf that bioflavinoids only effect ceratin drugs with low bioavailability. Is their any evidence that the alkaloids we ingest are of low bioavailability? What proof do you have that the chemicals we take are of the same class of those listed in the .pdf?


Why would something that inhibits the 'Cytochrome P450' in your liver be a substitute for something that inhibits the MAO's in your bloodstream?

no, citrus is not a substitute for the harmala alkaloid. But god, dont i hope is was. Hell, if it was, we'd be tripping evertime we had a glass of cranapple.

It says that orange juice has only 30% of the BFN's that grapefruit and red wine have, so i assume to get the same effect, one would have to drink 3X the amount of orange juice than grape fruit juice. yum yum.




Edited by yousuck (09/30/05 02:49 PM)


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OfflineSiRpAbLoEsCoBaR
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: yousuck]
    #4736804 - 09/30/05 02:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

explains why drinking a lot orange juice while im on mdma increases my high.


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Offlineiateshaggy
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: SiRpAbLoEsCoBaR]
    #4736884 - 09/30/05 03:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i remember seeing a report about how cranberry juice decreased the effects of rohypinol. i wonder if it is related.


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OfflineManninee
Psilence IsGolden

Registered: 07/19/05
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: yousuck]
    #4738011 - 09/30/05 08:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Bioflavs are obviously not MAOIs but they work at the level of the liver enzyme system as well as the gut mucosa (like MAOIs) to increase the availability of a drug to the body, and to decrease its rate of excretion. In fact, cytochrome p450 enzymes and MAO enzymes work closely and often metabolise the same substrates (Tryptamines). The pdf I linked to is just a snippet of the canon of published literature on bioflavinoids. Everyone with an interest should start digging at the topic.
To be honest I am a little guilty of cross posting in presenting this thread here, as it is continuing the one that started discussing why cranberry and grapefruit and citrus seem to potentiate shroom activity. I began this here because that thread seemed to be implying that acidity was the reason that potentiation occured (obviously wrong given the fact that stomach acid is the most acid of all and will far outstrip the contribution of the fruit juices.)The empirical evidence points to bioflavinoids being the culprits, and it seemed that the discussion ought to start over with a fresh perspective.
We certainly lack empirical evidence in terms of the indole alkaloids , but there is certainly enough anecdotal and personal experience to suggest that this is a relevant area to investigate.


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OfflineManninee
Psilence IsGolden

Registered: 07/19/05
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: Manninee]
    #4738034 - 09/30/05 08:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

For the scientifically minded, here is a paper that delves a little into the topic of the cytochrome p450 and MAO enzymes that munch on tryptamines and indoles:

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/304/2/539


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: Manninee]
    #4739774 - 10/01/05 03:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I read the first pdf you posted, but the 2nd was a bit beyond me hehe. I am the person who posted the original posts about cranberry and lemon/lime. The first pdf mentioned that lime has many of the same properties as the grapefruit, with a lower ph. Lemon wasnt really mentioned. It would be interesting to know what the actual bio-mass availibility % of shrooms is. I personally don't take any medications, so I am not extremely worried with a little experimentation, at least with 2 natural things like shrooms and juice. It seems like there may quite a few contributing factors on what may make the ideal liquid, like bioflavinoids, pH, simple sugars, and even volume. I have been drinking my shrooms for a couple years now, so I will slowly add to the research. I might check into bioflavinoid supplements later, but I want to keep it natural atm. I appreciate the info though, I just want to find an 'ideal' liquid for my own usage, and the last year has been interesting in discovering new ones.


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Edited by Underhillmaster (10/01/05 03:35 AM)


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OfflineManninee
Psilence IsGolden

Registered: 07/19/05
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Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4741618 - 10/01/05 06:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I gather rosehips and blackberries have a potent amount of bioflavinoids, vitamin C and fruit acids. These natural fruits come out at the same time as Psilocybe Semilanceata in the UK... how fortunate!


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OfflineAeolus1369
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Re: BIOFLAVINOIDS increase potency of trips [Re: Manninee]
    #4741836 - 10/01/05 07:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

According to the Flanagan paper, it's a specific type of bioflavinoid (furanocoumarins) that have the effect on CYP3A4.  So I don't think it would be correct to assume that consuming an equivalent amount of gross bioflavinoids would  have the same effect as the grapefruit juice.

Very interesting article!  :thumbup:


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