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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
What's the Deal with Authority?
    #4734289 - 09/30/05 01:03 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

What's the deal with authority?
We all know the definition... but let's jive on the concept of authority a bit.

Why do some systems have hierarchical authority structures and others do not?

Let's say a quasi-self-organized system existed. There were no rules, just a bunch of components that formed in a newly-existing location (hence the quasi). These components had few rules... the first being to ensure the existence of this group. Stability plays a key role in the establishment of a centralized rule system. But what decides the rules? Is it arbitrary? Is it based on some form of utilitarianism? If this group of components could survive as a unit for any period of time, what does that say for the necessity of certain stability? Move along... sometimes authority is spawned from the desire for power and control - though this might not be intentional (i.e. not conscious) - but where does this desire emerge from? Surely uncertainty alone does not render this insecure void.


Participation welcome.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Sclorch]
    #4734712 - 09/30/05 02:37 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

interesting post, good questions

interesting statement: authority arises from desire for power

what exactly do you mean? power-to-do-thngs? or power-over-others?

i imagine it's exterior factors that produce hierarchy or not; like a state vs a gatherer-hunter society- each one has a different history that produces the society. sure, you can say it's desire, but then you gotta say desire happens as a historical product.

anyway i dont even know how good history is at explaining the difference, but i'll argue it's a material difference, not individual impulse, do you see what i mean?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblepsyka
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Sclorch]
    #4735360 - 09/30/05 08:16 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Hierarchy's naturally form not because of human desire. But because of management and maintenance.

Who the hell is going to voluntarily clean sewers?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Sclorch]
    #4735375 - 09/30/05 08:26 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

not surprisingly..george orwell has already answered that question ..

Quote:

Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation.
Power is not a means, it is an end.
The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.




to make a long book short..its strictly a matter of entertaining their petty sadisms...in fact..according to the definition above..anyone that would seek power is necessarily a sadist...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Sclorch]
    #4735429 - 09/30/05 09:05 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Let's say a quasi-self-organized system existed

One does, and is amazingly successful. It self-governs more or less through peer pressure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Loc: underbelly
Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4735730 - 09/30/05 11:12 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
not surprisingly..george orwell has already answered that question ..

Quote:

Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation.
Power is not a means, it is an end.

The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.




to make a long book short..its strictly a matter of entertaining their petty sadisms...in fact..according to the definition above..anyone that would seek power is necessarily a sadist...




I think there is much truth in what you say.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Icelander]
    #4736028 - 09/30/05 12:19 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

on another thread about a dental enchantress (no NO2 is involved) the issue of parent's obligation to child is established, but only nearly clarified.

in this "related" thread, the relationship of parent to child is reexamined:

is it based upon truth, love, or authority.

the model of family can be metaphor for country as well.

all three (truth, love, & authority) need to be in ballance.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4736081 - 09/30/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Well as I said, there is much truth to what Orwell says. Not all truth. There is always more to everything.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Icelander]
    #4736094 - 09/30/05 12:34 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

when things are out of ballance the country rejoices at the death of the king.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4736103 - 09/30/05 12:36 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

You said a lot right there. Power comes from below. If it is abusive then there is support for that abuse. Human nature being unskillful, we talk out of both sides of our mouth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Diploid]
    #4736319 - 09/30/05 01:22 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Let's say a quasi-self-organized system existed

One does, and is amazingly successful. It self-governs more or less through peer pressure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page



I'd say it's about time we had open source government.


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4737559 - 09/30/05 05:58 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
on another thread about a dental enchantress (no NO2 is involved) the issue of parent's obligation to child is established, but only nearly clarified.

in this "related" thread, the relationship of parent to child is reexamined:

is it based upon truth, love, or authority.

the model of family can be metaphor for country as well.

all three (truth, love, & authority) need to be in ballance.





george lakoff presents an excellent analysis along that line...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #4737573 - 09/30/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

yeah but while he is making a whack of dough off of it, it is fundamental to the I-Ching, which like predates us by 3000 years or so.

the analogy also works internally (i.e. for the internal family and personal mental health)

really I should be rich for these little nuggets of neutrality


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4738157 - 09/30/05 08:29 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
Let's say a quasi-self-organized system existed

One does, and is amazingly successful. It self-governs more or less through peer pressure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page



I'd say it's about time we had open source government.




Well, Open Source Philosophy is beginning to be explored academically.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineGrowingVines
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Registered: 08/22/02
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Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Sclorch]
    #4739252 - 10/01/05 12:55 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I have a problem with Authority, don't tell me what to do unless you actually know me and understand me. Fuck a pig, fuck a priest and fuck who ever else thinks they are above me, i'll drop you like a bad mother fuckin habbit!!


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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Invisiblepsyka
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: What's the Deal with Authority? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4740255 - 10/01/05 08:35 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I'd say it's about time we had open source government.




I agree whole-heartedly.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post2895076


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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