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Offlinea_h_w
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TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS
    #4729654 - 09/29/05 02:31 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

28-09-2005

Ganzfeld-experiments in the Netherlands have proven that people under influence of magic mushrooms are far better capable of telepathically transferring their thoughts to someone else than usual. The reason for this experiment with shrooms was the traditional use in Indian cultures in South-America. Amongst them the link between these mushrooms and clairvoyance or telepathy is considered obvious.

It is known for a long time that people often report paranormal experiences when in an altered state of consciousness, for example when dreaming, meditating or just before falling asleep. Parapsychologists invented a setting that quickly brings people in such a state: the Ganzfeld. At an equally named experiment the test person lays down on a comfortable chair in a soundproof room. Headphones that only produce a noise. Two half ping pong balls on the eyes with a red lamp shining on them. Without any stimulations of the senses, the paranormal signals would be more cleary perceptible.

In the other room, a ?sender? is present. He looks at a picture and tries to ?send? the image to the test person. There are multiple variations on this experiment; mostly the receiver describes his impressions and chooses from four pictures one he thinks he has received.
Chances when choosing at random are 25%, so a higher percentage would indicate that something paranormal has taken place.

After twenty years of Ganzfeld research through the whole world the average success percentage lays around 33%. Later on, Professor at University of Utrecht Dick Bierman and academic Rens Wezelman researched clairvoyance under influence of drugs. Test persons smoked a joint just before entering the Ganzfeld session, or they had a dose of the hallucinogen psilocybin, better known as magic mushrooms. The stoned test persons scored around 30%, which is slightly above chance level, but comparable with results of sober persons. Under influence of mind altering shrooms the success percentage went up to 58%.

Source: Psychologie magazine and research report: Het effect van cannabis en paddo?s in een parapsychologisch experiment by D. Bierman.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729710 - 09/29/05 02:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Chances when choosing at random are 25%, so a higher percentage would indicate that something paranormal has taken place.

Might indicate. I am thinking of a number, either 1 or 2. Those that guessed two MUST be psychic, right?

Seems they should now ban pyschedelics at the World Series of Poker...


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729738 - 09/29/05 02:46 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i don't think its that great of a feat at all. only 4 pics to choose from? maybe more likely if it was from 25 or 50 pics, but once you think about it 4 pics doesn't create that high of a percentage of the likelyhood that this experiment would be telepathy.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: spudamore]
    #4729752 - 09/29/05 02:49 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I just looked outside and the Casinos are folding their tents and closing shop after hearing of these results...


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729757 - 09/29/05 02:49 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Seems they should now ban pyschedelics at the World Series of Poker...




hahaha seems like most of them are using anyways, there would be a great decline in players.


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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: spudamore]
    #4729766 - 09/29/05 02:51 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

when my brother and his friend are opn shrooms they know everything about what there going to sa its fucking crazy


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: spudamore]
    #4729780 - 09/29/05 02:53 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

More like cocaine (Stu Unger), speed, caffeine and nicotine. Not many dopers, trippers or drunkards make it very far in major tournaments.


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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729799 - 09/29/05 02:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

QUACK QUACK!!! LOL


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OfflineFospher
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729805 - 09/29/05 02:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Not many dopers, trippers or drunkards make it very far in major tournaments.




Those are 3 different kinds of people.


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: DeathCompany]
    #4729814 - 09/29/05 02:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I am now reading your mind. You are fantasizing about doing the chick in the chair with the white eye cups on.


--------------------



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Fospher]
    #4729818 - 09/29/05 02:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You can't 'multi-task'?  :stoned:


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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729822 - 09/29/05 03:00 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

damn hes good


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729828 - 09/29/05 03:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Chances when choosing at random are 25%, so a higher percentage would indicate that something paranormal has taken place.

Might indicate. I am thinking of a number, either 1 or 2.
Those that guessed two MUST be psychic, right?





you know perfectly well that if a person guessed your number 75 times in 100 something would be happening.

about the poker, it really doesn't make sense. I'm really surprised because usually the ceptic arguments are pretty well thought but his time they're really missing the point.

in the experiment there is someone trying to get a message through. i don't think in poker you'd have your opponents trying to tell you their game. so you better think of something else.

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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729838 - 09/29/05 03:05 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

hey hey hey smart people arent allowed in this here conversation


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729853 - 09/29/05 03:09 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

why do I present a telepathy study evolving an experience where a person is intentionally sending information to another and people make jokes about randomly reading another person's mind?

and really, what does the casino, cocaine, caffeine and all that stuff has to do with this?

oh, well, that explains the whole split thing. you don't want to expose opposite views. you want to make fun without even reasoning.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729855 - 09/29/05 03:09 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you know perfectly well that if a person guessed your number 75 times in 100 something would be happening.

Might be happening. Using a computerized random number generator and a random number guesser, a small, but sizable percentage of runs would exceed 75% with NOTHING going on.

That is only the starting point for research. It is not conclusive.


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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729860 - 09/29/05 03:10 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

what the fuck is he tlking about


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OfflineFospher
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: DeathCompany]
    #4729880 - 09/29/05 03:20 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Im too tired to give a proper retort, its 5 in the morning.

(just pretend shrooms have telepathic powers, it's all relative anyway)


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729887 - 09/29/05 03:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Using a computerized random number generator and a random number guesser, a small, but sizable percentage of runs would exceed 75% with NOTHING going on.





ok, so at least you're admiting that if nothing happened, the test was very very very lucky.

now i understand the whole casino thing!  :wink:

ps: please don't split s&p. these dynamics can't be lost. I learn a lot more even about my own ideas with the people that don't agree with them.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729889 - 09/29/05 03:25 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

why do I present a telepathy study evolving an experience where a person is intentionally sending information to another and people make jokes about randomly reading another person's mind?

You list a source that no one here has ready access to, no links; no third-party peer-review to check for experimenter bias, no others attempting to duplicate the experiment and getting similar results.

Then you talk in absolute conclusions instead of maybe's.

If this phenomenon was CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED and repeatable by other researchers, it would radically reshape our ideas of physics and understanding of the mind and brain. However, it is premature to come to any conclusion at this time.

In summation, you give us very little to actually discuss except for people to throw in anecdotal 'evidence'.


--------------------



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OfflineLuke
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729892 - 09/29/05 03:26 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

a_h_w said:
28-09-2005

Ganzfeld-experiments in the Netherlands have proven that people under influence of magic mushrooms are far better capable of telepathically transferring their thoughts to someone else than usual. The reason for this experiment with shrooms was the traditional use in Indian cultures in South-America. Amongst them the link between these mushrooms and clairvoyance or telepathy is considered obvious.

It is known for a long time that people often report paranormal experiences when in an altered state of consciousness, for example when dreaming, meditating or just before falling asleep. Parapsychologists invented a setting that quickly brings people in such a state: the Ganzfeld. At an equally named experiment the test person lays down on a comfortable chair in a soundproof room. Headphones that only produce a noise. Two half ping pong balls on the eyes with a red lamp shining on them. Without any stimulations of the senses, the paranormal signals would be more cleary perceptible.

In the other room, a ?sender? is present. He looks at a picture and tries to ?send? the image to the test person. There are multiple variations on this experiment; mostly the receiver describes his impressions and chooses from four pictures one he thinks he has received.
Chances when choosing at random are 25%, so a higher percentage would indicate that something paranormal has taken place.

After twenty years of Ganzfeld research through the whole world the average success percentage lays around 33%. Later on, Professor at University of Utrecht Dick Bierman and academic Rens Wezelman researched clairvoyance under influence of drugs. Test persons smoked a joint just before entering the Ganzfeld session, or they had a dose of the hallucinogen psilocybin, better known as magic mushrooms. The stoned test persons scored around 30%, which is slightly above chance level, but comparable with results of sober persons. Under influence of mind altering shrooms the success percentage went up to 58%.

Source: Psychologie magazine and research report: Het effect van cannabis en paddo?s in een parapsychologisch experiment by D. Bierman.




Oh yes, I notice my remote viewing and Tk are better. Shrooms are hibitors.

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OfflineLuke
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Luke]
    #4729894 - 09/29/05 03:26 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Double post, human error. *EDIT*

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Fospher]
    #4729901 - 09/29/05 03:28 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
(just pretend shrooms have telepathic powers, it's all relative anyway)




no one's saying shrooms have telepathic powers. maybe people under the effects of shrooms may acquire telepathic abilities more easily.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: DeathCompany]
    #4729906 - 09/29/05 03:31 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

what the fuck is he tlking about

Standard statisitical analysis and bell curves. Most series of 100 guesses would be in the 45-55 correct range; with fewer at 65 and still less at 75.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinestemmer
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Fospher]
    #4729907 - 09/29/05 03:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

My friend asked me to guess there poker cards after I told them about my experiences with ayahuasca. First they pulled two cards, I got one right(non suited). Next I told them to pick cards only to fool me(given the tainted deck), they picked three I guessed two, They were getting weirded out and asked that I guess five cards. I guessed 3 of the five . We did this once more and I got three right again. They were so weirded out that they thought I would buy the fact that they were less interested, but really they were weirded out. The game ended there.
This was 10 weeks after ayahuasca and I was still seeing fat visuals and was still thinking that if I listened to their choices of cards, I would select them all via the voice. I was way too close for their likeing. They have not talked about those probabilities since, although they talk my head off about their successes on the pokerstars web site.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: stemmer]
    #4729921 - 09/29/05 03:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

When you come to Vegas, bring a fat stash of cash with you, give me twice the expected odds on random card guessing. We will get three impartial judges and you can take me for everything I own.

Fair enough?

Note: In six years here, EVERY SINGLE POSTER has backed down to a Swami Challenge. You could change history.


--------------------



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Luke]
    #4729924 - 09/29/05 03:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yes, I notice my remote viewing and Tk are better. Shrooms are hibitors.

There is no "better" in TK. Either you can or you cannot move an object soley with your mind.


--------------------



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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4729931 - 09/29/05 03:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
In summation, you give us very little to actually discuss except for people to throw in anecdotal 'evidence'.



I guess I proved the poker thing was out of place. was that your anecdotal 'evidence'?
we started discussing on statistics and I guess I also proved it was statistically very difficult for the results to be wrong if the study was well conducted.
of course we have to believe there was actually this study and it was actually well done and it actually presented such results.

one of the most common statements to debunk such studies is the argument that if this indeed happened it would mean a revolution in science and therefore it can't be true, otherwise it would be everywhere.
do you think it is easy to conduct experiences with mushrooms and to have the results of such experiences accepted inside the scientific community?
does such an experiment represent any potential financial outcome? it can't be used as a weapon. it's not a cure for a worldwide disease that could be sold by the millions. there's not even potential political benefits for any government. all it would prove for a start is that maybe mushrooms are not such a bad thing, that human beings may be able to develop abilities unknown to them, and that the whole policies on drugs were way wrong. what government would benefit from that? so who wants to make this the next big thing? there's not even yet a practical use for the technology if it proves itself true.

the reason I made this post is because there is a large number of people on this forum interested/experimenting on this area. I thought they should know.

but you're right Swami, it's just a start and it doesn't prove nothing by itself.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4729958 - 09/29/05 04:16 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

one of the most common statements to debunk such studies is the argument that if this indeed happened it would mean a revolution in science and therefore it can't be true, otherwise it would be everywhere.
My statement was not a debunking one. It was a statement of fact that the current model of the physical world would have to drastically revamped if these experiments bore untainted fruit.

do you think it is easy to conduct experiences with mushrooms and to have the results of such experiences accepted inside the scientific community?
There is no problem if the methodology is sound. Your rant adds nothing to the equation.

the reason I made this post is because there is a large number of people on this forum interested/experimenting on this area. I thought they should know.
This has been suggested many times, yet no one has yet to do a controlled test in their home and report back. I would do it myself, but have never witnessed any special abilities in 3 decades of journeying so have no reason to look deeper. If I had such an experience though, I certianly would.

What I have witnessed is much self-deception. Famed religious and psychedelic author, Huston Smith (of the Leary, Mentzer and Alpert legacy) wrote about a mind-blowing psilocybin experience where he was TOTALLY CERTAIN he had read minds of some people at a party. He later approached them and found he was completely in error.

What usually happens is a group of friends of similar age and experience and tastes get together. One sez, "We should play some 'Matchbox Twenty' and another guys says, 'Wow! I was thinking the same thing!" Doesn't matter that they all went to the concert two months ago and share many common reference points. It would be weird if one said, "Hey, I want to hear Al Jolson doing Swannee River," and got the same reaction.


--------------------



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Offlinekotik
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4730011 - 09/29/05 05:08 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

hmm i duno about telepathy with people.. but im positive i can talk to my dogs when im tripping


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Invisiblespudamore
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4730016 - 09/29/05 05:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

the thing is its only 4 pictures to choose from so its only a one in four chance to guess it, if the percentages that you posted were the same for 50 or 60 pictures it would be more credible.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4730020 - 09/29/05 05:15 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
My statement was not a debunking one. It was a statement of fact that the current model of the physical world would have to drastically revamped if these experiments bore untainted fruit.




ok, like you said, too early for that. but if indeed, so what? what's the point in saying "it would radically reshape our ideas of physics and understanding of the mind and brain"? do you mean it is an interesting field of study, for all it implies if proved true? are you actually encouraging further research?

Quote:

Swami said:
do you think it is easy to conduct experiences with mushrooms and to have the results of such experiences accepted inside the scientific community?
There is no problem if the methodology is sound. Your rant adds nothing to the equation.




everybody knows scientific investigation goes hand in hand with money and power. maybe the real problem wouldn't be the scientific community itself but rather governments, which are themselves pretty much intertwined with the scientific community itself, so...

Quote:

Swami said:
the reason I made this post is because there is a large number of people on this forum interested/experimenting on this area. I thought they should know.
This has been suggested many times, yet no one has yet to do a controlled test in their home and report back. I would do it myself, but have never witnessed any special abilities in 3 decades of journeying so have no reason to look deeper. If I had such an experience though, I certainly would.





people regularly come up with this subject for one reason or another. people are free to believe in shamanic knowledge and reports from the amazon and mexican rainforests. if there are tribes in this world claiming to use entheogenic substances to learn the use of telepathic abilities it is legitimate for anyone in the world to try and reach that knowledge.

for whoever believes I will keep posting! there are no guarantees whatsoever, for we're daring to cross through the unknown. it's a long journey home! but will get there one day! eventually  :wink:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4730043 - 09/29/05 05:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

everybody knows
Research: appeal to large numbers, appeal to authority, rumor and heresay. That is never a way to start a discussion. If it were known to all, why mention it?

everybody knows scientific investigation goes hand in hand with money and power. maybe the real problem wouldn't be the scientific community itself but rather governments, which are themselves pretty much intertwined with the scientific community itself, so...
Continuing with the unproven 'conspiracy angle' begets nothing. Many scientists work solo for minimal gain. You are losing credibility here my friend. UFO proponents use the same erroneous argument. It does nothing to make your case except to add a fallacious escape clause in case the experiments do not pan out.

people are free to believe in shamanic knowledge and reports from the amazon and mexican rainforests. if there are tribes in this world claiming to use entheogenic substances to learn the use of telepathic abilities it is legitimate for anyone in the world to try and reach that knowledge.
Read "Wizard of the Upper Amazon" wherein the Ayahuascueros were 'certain' another tribe was going to attack even though no such war party was forming. Many lives were lost for nothing in this pre-emptive attack.

for we're daring to cross through the unknown. it's a long journey home! but will get there one day! eventually
Psychic research has been going on for about 150 years with nothing to show for it and with pyschedelics for about 40-50 years, also with negligible results.

Something real should have showed much more promise by now. When one has to look that hard with failure after failure and an occasional seeming success like the one you mention; chances are there is little to the alleged phenomenon.

This hopefulness is spurred on by many fallacious books such as "The Secret Life of Plants" starting in the '70s and many others following with weak or no science behind them or falsified results.

Good luck to you though. I would love to have my mind blown.


--------------------



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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Swami]
    #4730186 - 09/29/05 07:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

research with psychedelics started maybe 40-50 years ago, mainly in the field of psychoanalysis. it was halted by the end of the 70's. and only recently did it re-emerge particularly in the treatment of heroine/cocaine addiction.
it doesn't seem to me like it has been failure after failure.

about the amazon: the problem of those forests always has been the violence cult. the more and more you dig into the heart of those cultures you find violence and death have very different meanings than those we're used to. it took me a long long time to figure the meaning of human sacrifice.
you can also see in castaneda how the ancient knowledge must be reshaped in order to produce better results than it did in the past. throughout his books he progressively changes the belief system and its interpretation forming a new view of the shamanic path and its meaning. but he also permanently acknowledges the inheritance of the past, understanding that as horrid as the results of the old practices may have been, they contained in them a powerful knowledge that if understood could be used quite differently.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4730459 - 09/29/05 08:49 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

How big was the sample size, even?

33% isn't that huge an anomaly. I'm a little curious as to how extensive this study was.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: spudamore]
    #4730486 - 09/29/05 08:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i don't think its that great of a feat at all. only 4 pics to choose from?

That's one of the biggest flaws with these types of 'experiments'.

Why not use a catalog of 100,000 pics? After all, if the powers are for real, the sample size doesn't matter because the 'sender' is only looking at one pic. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (09/29/05 11:23 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: DeathCompany]
    #4730501 - 09/29/05 08:56 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

when my brother and his friend are opn shrooms they know everything about what there going to sa its fucking crazy

If this is true, they should apply for the Randi Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge. All they would have to demonstrate to win the million bucks is exceeding what would happen anyway due to random chance:

http://randi.org/research/index.html


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (09/29/05 09:18 AM)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Diploid]
    #4730531 - 09/29/05 09:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, but then you don't get nifty results and media attention.

What's the point of doing a study if you don't get to be interviewed?

The problem is they don't ask themselves "How can I find out whether or not telepathy is real?", they ask "How can I prove telepathy is real to all those idiot skeptics?", and they design a study that will give them the results they want.

Then of course skeptics take a look at the study, and say "WTF? Four pictures, small sample size? This hardly counts."

Then they say "YOU SAY THAT ABOUT ALL OF OUR STUDIES! YOU ASK FOR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE AND THEN YOU GET IT AND IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH!! AUGH! YOU'RE SO CLOSED MINDED!" and quit science and start a reiki centre and tell people "I quit science because nobody was interested in the truth. All they wanted to do was try and disprove real magical phenomena"


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Phluck]
    #4730731 - 09/29/05 09:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

58% is not insignificant. I also think it is quite reasonable to start with 4 images only. after all these people are not specifically trained on using telepathy while on shrooms. they haven't been doing this their whole life. as with any new field of study you go step by step.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4730877 - 09/29/05 10:08 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

58% is not insignificant.

That depends on the sample size. A smaller group means that one or two coincidences will come up as a big anomaly.

after all these people are not specifically trained on using telepathy while on shrooms

There isn't even conclusive proof that training would do anything or that telepathy even exists.

This is not a new field of study, people have been doing telepathy studies for decades with no clear data. The promising studies have often either been poorly conducted, or follow up studies have been unable to replicate their results.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Phluck]
    #4730923 - 09/29/05 10:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I have to say that while it's not entirely convincing, 58% does sound very interesting, and I would be interested to see further studies done.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Phluck]
    #4730928 - 09/29/05 10:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I've managed to find a pdf report of the above mentioned study. please check it at http://m0134.fmg.uva.nl/publications/2000/psychotropic_GF.pdf

I will highlight the researchers' conclusions:

We should stress that a single experiment especially with a limited number of subjects, can never give rise to strong conclusions. The statistical power is too low. Nevertheless the findings reported here seem to suggest that:
a) Psi performance is affected by the use of psychoactive drugs.
b) Cannabis induces increased scoring rates but it seems that in within subject designs the major difference comes from psi missing in the control condition.
c) Psilocybin increases scoring rates if the material is positive. It might decrease scoring rates when the material is negative. This conclusion could be dependent on the context. If the context is very pleasant and subjects feel they can allow themselves to experience negative feelings, also negative clips might show a positive rather than a negative effect.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Silversoul]
    #4730935 - 09/29/05 10:20 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Also, I'd like to see what results they get with LSD. I've had what seemed like remote viewing experiences on acid, and I'd be interested to see if there's something to it.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4730994 - 09/29/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

They used the Ganzfeld model for their studies:

http://skepdic.com/ganzfeld.html

Which is questionable at best.

Why aren't people interested in doing larger, more comprehensive studies? What's the point in doing a study that tries to prove that a drug has an effect on something that nobody has proven exists? Why not try and do some more comprehensive testing on the basis for telepathy?

You might want to read this as well:
http://skepdic.com/psiassumption.html


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4731092 - 09/29/05 10:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I also think it is quite reasonable to start with 4 images only.

I will never understand why people doing research into paranormal phenomena always insist on making luck part of the data. An honest search for the truth should do everything possible to totally eliminate any chance of a lucky hit in the data and that means you use a very large sample size.

If they did this, they would leave little room for skeptics to refute the results.

For example, picking a number from 1 to 10 leaves a big 'luck window' open in the results, but picking a number from 1 to 1,000,000 all but closes the 'luck window'. Any positive results from the former would be suspect while any from the latter would be v-e-r-y impressive.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Diploid]
    #4735120 - 09/30/05 02:51 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

my opinion is that telepathy is an ability humans may develop. you don't start learning maths with big equations. you start with simple arithmetics. therefore i think telepathy studies and development should follow the same pattern. starting with simple things and trying to develop to bigger more complex tasks.
of course this study is not proving anything by itself but only pointing possible directions for further research. i still maintain it presents valuable information for whoever feels like venturing into such.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: a_h_w]
    #4735188 - 09/30/05 03:13 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you don't start learning maths with big equations

Neither do you start learning math by using only the odd numbers.

starting with simple things and trying to develop to bigger more complex tasks

The world contains billions of pics. A researcher selecting four of them, then presenting ONE to the 'sender' is functionally no different than a researcher selecting 100,000 of them then presenting ONE to the 'sender'.

In both cases, the 'sender' gets to see exactly one pic to send so the difficulty is exactly the same: one pic, one sender, one receiver.

What does it matter that there is a big book of pics in the other room that the 'sender' never even knows about? All the sender knows is that he has been given ONE pic to send.

The only difference is that the former gives the 'receiver' a one in four chance of being right on chance alone, thus making any positive results due to telepathy OR luck, and the latter removes the element of luck and tests ONLY telepathy.

Why do you want to test how lucky the telepathic pair is rather than test ONLY their telepathy? A small sample size doesn't make it any easier because you still end up with one pic, one sender, and one receiver... oh, and a small army of skeptics with ammunition you gave them shooting down your results (lucky hits).


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (09/30/05 03:43 AM)

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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Diploid]
    #4740971 - 10/01/05 01:16 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just chosing from 4 pictures would not be a problem if the experiment is repeated enough times. However, the report states that in the first psilocybin experiment, 12 subjects performed the test once. This is clearly not a large enough sample size to say that the result (58% compared to 25% expected by chance) is particularly significant. If it had been like, 10000 people each performing the test on 10 seperate occasions, a result of 58%, or even something considerably lower, would have been astounding.

Even in the follow-up study, they say that the overall scoring rate for psilocybin subjects is identical to what one would expect by chance.


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OfflinePasco
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: MetaShroom]
    #4875597 - 10/31/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not surprised the test scores weren't higher, only a small minority find their way through the psyche and into the psyches of others. Those that do will give 100% correct test scores however.

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OfflineDigs
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Re: TELEPATHY & SHROOMS - NEWS FROM THE NETHERLANDS [Re: Diploid]
    #4878458 - 11/01/05 02:57 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
luck




it's called variance and it doesn't matter if you have 2 choices or 2 billion if you have adequate sample sizes for both.

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