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OfflineGrib_iz_Pitera
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A nipple on Panaeloina?
    #4720489 - 09/27/05 05:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Tell me please, is a nipple on the top definitely distinguishes Psilocybe Semilanceata from Panaeolina Foenescenci? In other words,
can annoying Panaeolina have a nipple in some case?


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Grib_iz_Pitera]
    #4720663 - 09/27/05 05:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

alot of mushrooms can, paneolina foenisecci however does not resemble psilocybe semilancaeta.


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Mitchnast]
    #4721039 - 09/27/05 06:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

This is a foenisecci that i founf thus year.



These are some massive nipples man.


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"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei


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OfflineAntarath
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #4726421 - 09/28/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

this is also a Foenisecii



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OfflineGrib_iz_Pitera
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Antarath]
    #4731587 - 09/29/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The second mushroom on the last pic resembles Semilancaeta.


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-Hey, what are doing here in the forest?!
-I'm..I'm just picking mushrooms..
-Look, he's  j u s t  picking mushrooms! Is that you who planted them?!


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OfflineManninee
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Grib_iz_Pitera]
    #4732922 - 09/29/05 07:48 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm... it can be difficult to tell the two apart as P.Sem. can be so rhizomorphic (takes on so many forms). Foenesecii often tends towards a dark brown colour wet going caramel when drier and its stems are usually straighter. P.Sem. can have a cap configuration identical to Pan.Foen. but there will usually be smaller more obvious PS specimens growing nearby. The last pic could even be psilocybes - I am sure there are 3 or 4 subspecies of semilanceata that occur commonly, but this will be open to debate.


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OfflinePSiFr33k
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Manninee]
    #4733133 - 09/29/05 08:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well the main thing is foes dont bruise libs do so , its obvious to tell which is which


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While i was in the grass, i picked them..


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OfflineGrib_iz_Pitera
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: PSiFr33k]
    #4737266 - 09/30/05 04:24 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Can you explain what means 'bruising' of Semilanceata?


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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Grib_iz_Pitera]
    #4737339 - 09/30/05 04:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

like a human would bruise... pinch or tear the flesh and it turns a blueing color from the psilocybin reacting with oxygen... and it looks like bruising...


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InvisibleYESSUP
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Grib_iz_Pitera]
    #4737376 - 09/30/05 04:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Bruised... As in this....

Or like this......

Yessup :mushroom2:


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Gut Feeling leads to anxiety, Anxiety leads to fear, Fear leads to anger,And anger leads to regret.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Manninee]
    #4738688 - 09/30/05 10:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Manninee said [QUOTE]it can be difficult to tell the two apart as P.Sem. can be so rhizomorphic (takes on so many forms).





Rhizomorphs refer to strands of mycelia similar to a way a spider's web branches out.

Your statement about the above is incorrect and mileading information.

And there are no sub species of liberty caps. There are in the fields, other species which are similar in macroscopic appearence to Psilocybe semilanceata, such as P. strictipes and P. sierrae (P. subfimetaria). Also the woodland mushrooms P. pelliculosa and P. silvatica, slightly resemble a liberty cap but have no nipple and grow from woodchips and not pastures or lawns with manured soils.

In Thailand we have P. samuiensis and in Cambodia we have P. antioquensis (the later is also foound from Colombia and Mexico) and in Mexico we have P. mexicana, all which can macroscopicaaly be similar to one another in manured fields and pasturlands\, lawns and meadows.

And Panaeolina do not have nipples but sometimes the cap is umbonate shaped.

mj

Regarding what rhizomorphs are. Read this and learn and have a shroomy day:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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Rhizomorphs
These hyphal bundles are referred to by various terms (mycelial cords, mycelial strands or rhizomorphs) and you will see some variation in the use of these terms. Some people use the term rhizomorph for anything but the loosest of bundles whereas others will use it only for highly structured bundles. I'll use the word "rhizomorph" here as a general term for all such bundles. The reference given in the button contains a discussion of some of the terms that have been used for such hyphal bundles.

The photo shows some white rhizomorphs growing through an area of wood chip mulch. You?ll often come across such rhizomorphs when raking aside dead wood or old mulch, while doing some gardening. There is considerable variation in both the structure and growth of rhizomorphs. In some species the rhizomorphs grow in a very regimented way, the tips extending as a whole, in a manner similar to the growth of root tips in plants. In other cases one or a few founder hyphae grow out and other hyphae then follow the same route as the founder hyphae and twine around them. In this way a bundle of hyphae builds up. In many species the outer regions of the mycelium grow in a diffuse, fanned-out fashion with rhizomorphs developing a little behind those expanding, diffuse extremities.

The following two diagrams will give you some idea of the features found in many of the highly structured rhizomorphs, with well regimented tip growth. But remember that there is variation in rhizomorph structure, so these are generalized diagrams, rather than faithful depictions of the rhizomorphs of any particular species.

The first diagram represents a cross-section, taken along a rhizomorph. The growing apex is on the right, where you can see the individual hyphae, intertwined but generally parallel and, in this area, the hyphae show no differentiation in function. A little way further back there is a marked difference in structure across the rhizomorph. Moving from the outside to the centre:



The narrow black outer zone represents an outer skin - solid and black in a number of species, but not always

The dark brown area represents a region packed with narrow hyphae

The speckled blue/light brown area contains many wider hyphae

The second diagram shows a cross-section taken along the red line, well behind the growing apex, in the first diagram. Once again you can see the thin, black protective skin and just in from that the band of narrow hyphae. The area that was a speckled blue/brown in the previous diagram is now shown in more detail, with a mix of narrow and broad hyphae (the hyphal walls shown in blue and the interior white). The broad hyphae are called vessel hyphae and the interiors of these are often empty, allowing the easy flow of nutrients. Within the broad central region the light brown area may contain more narrow hyphae or be composed of glues that bind the hyphae together.



As an example of the variation in rhizomorph structure, the Australian species Armillaria luteobubalina produces rhizomorphs where there is a very large, mostly empty channel constituting a large part of each rhizomorph. It had long been supposed that this channel would allow the efficient transport of oxygen to the advancing apex, but proof of this has come only fairly recently. Laboratory experiments at the University of Sydney and the University of New South Wales have shown that rhizomorphs of Armillaria luteobubalina conduct oxygen. When this species was grown on agar in a petri dish, cylindrical air pores grew vertically above the fungal culture, to about 7mm in height. Rhizomorphs developed below the air pores, grew a short distance down into the agar and then turned to continue growing horizontally. The channels within the air pores were continuous with the central channels in the rhizomorphs and tests showed that oxygen moved through the system. This reference-button takes you to an abstract of a talk about this work, given at the 2002 International Mycological Congress in Oslo. A couple of the people engaged in this work found air-pore-like structures in Norwegian Armillaria-infected wood, during a field excursion associated with the Congress. Those structures, produced by a European species of Armillaria, looked very much like the air pores produced in the laboratory experiments with the Australian Armillaria luteobubalina.

Armillaria is a world-wide genus of parasitic fungi, with different species in different continents and the species of this genus produce well-structured rhizomorphs. Vessel hyphae have been found in the rhizomorphs of some Armillaria species, but not in Armillaria luteobubalina. The researchers at the universities of Sydney and New South Wales point out that this does not mean that Armillaria luteobubalina rhizomorphs don?t conduct nutrients - just that they don?t have empty vessel hyphae to do the job. In this species, the main role of the rhizomorphs is the transport of oxygen through areas with low oxygen levels - such as moist soils.

Apart from various parasitic fungi, such as Armillaria, many saprotrophic and mycorrhizal species also produce rhizomorphs. The photo shows two immature fruiting bodies of the endemic Australian mycorrhizal species Dermocybe globuliformis, revealed when the surface layer of leaf litter was pulled aside. You can see some diffuse pale yellow mycelium as well as a few, darker yellow rhizomorphs.

Rhizomorphs serve varied purposes. The example of oxygen transport in Armillaria has already been mentioned. Many rhizomorphs can also be looked at as exploratory or migratory structures. For example, suitable food sources for saprotrophic, wood-decay fungi can be widely separated from each other. Look at the fallen trunks or branches in a woodland. Typically there is some distance between them. To you the distances between the different bits of fallen timber may not seem great, perhaps a half-metre here or a few metres there, but to a fungus the intervening areas of bare, wood-free soil may as well be oceans. If such a fungus has exhausted all the nutrients in one piece of wood, it faces a challenge getting to another piece of wood. Rhizomorphs can offer considerable advantages as exploratory tools. The outer skin protects the inner hyphae in the traversal of an inhospitable region. Additionally, rhizomorphs grow much more quickly than isolated hyphae, thereby speeding up the exploration for fresh food sources.

Rhizomorphs also offer considerable advantages when a new piece of wood is found. As there are typically numerous hyphae making up a rhizomorph, when it strikes a new piece of wood the numerous hyphal tips can fan out and rapidly colonise the new wood as a diffuse, branched mycelium. Compare the two figures in the diagram below. In each case the brown rectangles represent pieces of wood. In figure 1 a rhizomorph has come from the left and found the wood, whereupon the constituent hyphae fan out into a radiating mycelium and fairly quickly have occupied a good proportion of the wood. Figure 2 shows what happens when just a single hypha strikes a similar piece of wood. Once in the wood it will also branch and spread out, but for any time period it will have occupied less of the wood than the rhizomorphic fungus.




A well-structured rhizomorph that is able to transport large amounts of water, nutrients or oxygen to the advancing apex will easily fuel the rapid expansion of the fungus into new territory. The contrast between a rhizomorph and an individual hypha is similar to the difference between a multi-lane highway and a narrow, winding road.

If the new wood is unoccupied by any other fungi or micro-organisms, figure 1 shows that the newly arrived fungus can quickly colonize this pristine territory before it's found by other organisms. On the other hand, the new piece of wood may already be occupied by other fungi or various micro-organisms, in which case the newly arrived fungus must contend with those existing occupants. If the new fungus has arrived via a rhizomorph then it may be able to overcome the defences of the existing occupants because of the mass of hyphae that are brought to the wood simultaneously. To use a military analogy, figure 1 is equivalent to landing an army division in enemy territory whereas figure 2 is equivalent to landing only a small squad of soldiers in the same hostile territory.

Armillaria luteobubalina is one example of rhizomorphs enabling a fungus to traverse inhospitable areas. A further example of this is the Dry Rot fungus (Serpula lacrymans ), a species that can cause significant damage to timber in damp, poorly ventilated buildings. The rhizomorphs produced by this fungus can extend for several metres across brickwork in the search for fresh wood and the ability to form such rhizomorphs makes this a very destructive fungus. As long as there is a source of water and nutrients, the rhizomorphs can transport these over considerable distances and across inhospitable terrain to support the advancing mycelium. There is, once again, a very apt military analogy. As long as there are both a well-stocked supply depot and a secure, large-capacity supply line, a considerable front-line force can be supported over a long distance.

In all of the above examples, the rhizomorphs have been more-or-less at ground level, but they can also be found off the ground. In tropical rainforests a considerable amount of the leaf and twig litter that falls from the taller trees is often trapped, at least temporarily, in understorey trees and shrubs. Numerous wiry rhizomorphs (to 1mm in diameter) wind their way through the trapped litter. A study in Ecuador found 200 to 300 kg (dry weight) of such trapped litter per hectare, containing at least 500 to 600 metres of rhizomorph per kilogram of litter. Another way of reporting that rhizomorph abundance is to say that there's at least 100 kilometres of rhizomorph per hectare. A number of common rhizomorph-producing fungi were in the genera Marasmius or Marasmiellus. Many of the species in these genera produce tiny mushrooms as fruiting bodies, with the caps often under a centimetre in diameter. The rhizomorphs hold on to fallen leaves and twigs by producing splayed-out adhesion pads. Once these pads have a secure hold on the plant debris, hyphae can penetrate and fan out as a more diffuse mycelium to extract the nutrients inside. You can find out a bit more about this study in the reference given in the button. Incidentally, the author also reported that the rhizomorphs are so common that they are used in Hummingbird nests - which can later produce crops of tiny mushrooms.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

As far as telling the difference apart between Panaeolina foenisecii and Psilocybe semilanceata, the ib cap stem can be wrapped around your finger linka ring and the P. foenisecii cap will snap and break instantly when you try to wrap it around your finger. If you also snap the mushrooms in your fingers, the foenisecii will break into several pieces as the stem and cap fall apart , while the lib cap remains intact.

mj


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OfflineFootprint
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4739412 - 10/01/05 01:44 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus mj, you never fail to amaze me, as thorough as can be.
:grin: :grin: :crazy: :grin: :grin:


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Invisiblebaycafe
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #4739676 - 10/01/05 03:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hi MJ,

If I could gain but a tenth of your knowledge in my mycological endeavors I would be happy. Now if I could just find where I placed the apex of my rhizomorphic knowledge leaching helmet :smile:

Regarding the post above, when do taxa of a single species become a subspecies or new species all together? One example that comes to mind would be Psilocybe cyanescens. Collections from North America and Europe exist and are generally acknowledged as being the same species yet when single spored isolations of monokaryotic mycelia of each is introduced to form diakaryotic mycelium, it is found that they appear to be incompatible and do not form hyphal clamp connections. From previous experience in herpetological husbandry it was generally not a problem to take two distinct subspecies of the same species and create a hybrid.


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I think my eyes are getting better. Instead of a big dark blur I see a big light blur.

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OfflineGrib_iz_Pitera
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: baycafe]
    #4740786 - 10/01/05 02:08 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks to all of you for the answers and mycological lecture.
I've just returned from the field where I experienced all the things
about stems wrapping and caps snapping. It turned out to be so easy
to recognize. The real lib cap is so strong and flexible! I'll never mix up a semilanceata with foenisecii anymore. The only annoying thing
that it seems most of my finds are foes :frown:


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OfflineGrib_iz_Pitera
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Re: A nipple on Panaeloina? [Re: Grib_iz_Pitera]
    #4740882 - 10/01/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

YESSUP, your pics are cool! It's all clear with the beaten guy,
but the bruised mushrooms (which are not semis of course) remind me what I had seen on a 'false orange-cap boletus' I found in a forest yesterday. This is a pore fungi which bruises like a bastard! It is considered as poisonous (at least all books tell this) but may be, does it consist psilocybin?


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