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 Mavrick127
newbie
Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 33
Last seen: 23 years, 13 days
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 Long term effects of 'Shrooms? 
#471701 - 11/27/01 09:13 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ever since I ate my first eigth of 'shrooms I have been wanting to do more. I recently started cultivating my own shrooms and want to trip once in a while.
I did a lot of research and couldnt come up with any long term effects of shrooms, only flashbacks. Are there long term effects besides flashbacks??
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 downforpot
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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 Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Mavrick127]
#471710 - 11/27/01 09:17 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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uhhh, u change if u do alot, i did a bit too much the first time, next day i was changed, i was more relaxed and not hyper, just not tryin to be kool or nothin. i got paranoid, waaaaaaaaaaay paranoid. and the flashbacks arent that big of a deal, the walls bleed sometimes.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25
"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"
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Spidey
Stranger
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 Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Mavrick127]
#471741 - 11/27/01 09:39 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Heavy abuse of Serotoninergic Drugs can potentiate depressive episodes due to a sustained decrease in serotonin.
Doesn't happen to everyone. But if someone has a predisposition for depression, psychedelics can compound it.
I had this happen to me. BUT, I was taking LSD once a week, and up to 3 times a week, off and on for almost 3 years. And was taking all sorts of other drugs at that time too.
Not permanent. And after discontinuing usage, it went away over time.
Good rule of thumb; too much of anything ain't a good idea.
Other than that, there aren't really any medically confirmed long term side effects. That is unless you already suffer from a pre-exisiting psychotic disorder.
Of course, as with anything, different people react differently, and your mileage may vary.
As far as Flashbacks, there are differing opinions in the professional community as well as among users, on whether there really is such a thing. Perhaps its possible, but I've never had one and I've never known anyone who has. although, sure, while I was using LSD chronically, I'd catch a trail out of the corner of my eye while sober. But when you're using LSD weekly and many other drugs daily, is there really such a thing as being sober??
Everything in moderation.
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COZMKSTRCHLD
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Registered: 11/18/01
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Mavrick127]
#471766 - 11/27/01 09:59 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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LONG TERM PROGNOSIS IS INSANITY. THE ALCHEMIND SOCIETY WILL GIVE YOU DIRECTION. ALL I CAN SAY, FROM MY VIEW, IS , GET ON THE BUS AND STAY ON, OR GET OFF.
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downforpot
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: COZMKSTRCHLD]
#471803 - 11/27/01 10:27 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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ive always been on the bus, so i got nothin to loose.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25
"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#471862 - 11/27/01 11:23 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Heavy abuse of Serotoninergic Drugs can potentiate depressive episodes due to a sustained decrease in serotonin.
BZZ. Wrong. Sustained decrease of serotonin does not cause depression; it may be caused by depression. What is also odd is that low serotonin levels may last for weeks after the end of a major depressive episode.
Change your etiology, but I have no objection to the claim that hallucinogens may cause depression.
> But if someone has a predisposition for depression, psychedelics can compound it.
What is a predisposition to depression? Where is your evidence that such an internal factor exists?
> Good rule of thumb; too much of anything ain't a good idea.
Wow, really? Causing yourself harm is a bad idea huh?
> That is unless you already suffer from a pre-exisiting psychotic disorder.
Schizophrenics who take hallucinogens don't end up in worse shape.
> Everything in moderation.
Were you reading my OTD thread before this?
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egolesss
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Mavrick127]
#471891 - 11/27/01 11:52 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've never had any bad effects from shrooms, 10 years of use and I have used them when my mind was ready for a trip and never regreted any of them..LSD caused some flashbacks, paranoia and depression, Mushrooms on the other hand have led me to revelations, and self improvement...Don't abuse them and they won't abuse you.......
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Going crazy will drive you mad, but once you get there the rest is easy....All spores are not created equal!!!!!!!!!!! Sporeworks, Hawkseye, PF, they are completely viable with very strong genetics.
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felix
Registered: 01/20/00
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: egolesss]
#471978 - 11/28/01 02:20 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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i think i read somewhere that long term use of shrooms advances the aging process...not sure if all organs or just one are affected.
short-term, i usually feel pretty mellow about things
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Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug
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Sir Tokes-A-Lot
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#471990 - 11/28/01 02:33 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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do you have to prove EVERYONE wrong about EVERYTHING?
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"If god liked midgets, he woulda made 'em come on stilts."- ChemicalMonkey (The Early Years)
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Spidey
Stranger
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#472084 - 11/28/01 05:42 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>Sustained decrease of serotonin does not cause depression; it may be caused by depression.<<<
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
We can argue over this all day and not get anywhere. Still evidence does exist to show that SSRI's do help is many cases of depression, lending to the notion that low levels of serotonin and depression are highly correlated.
>>>What is a predisposition to depression? Where is your evidence that such an internal factor exists?<<<
Family history. Many mental illnesses may be genetic. When visiting a psychiatrist, most will ask for a family history.
>>>Wow, really? Causing yourself harm is a bad idea huh?<<<
And your sarcasm is necessary because..............??
>>>Schizophrenics who take hallucinogens don't end up in worse shape.<<<
Perhaps. Yet hallucinagens may still help potentiate psychosis in someone who destined to turn out that way. This is all PSY 101 shit, we're not talking quantum physics here.
>>>Were you reading my OTD thread before this?<<<
No, I haven't. A good read, huh?
:)
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#472339 - 11/28/01 12:38 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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> lending to the notion that low levels of serotonin and depression are highly correlated.
Yes, and what is said about correlation. Correlation does not imply causation.
> Family history. Many mental illnesses may be genetic.
His discordance rates between adopted, monozygotic twins in which one has schizophrenia clearly point to the importance of environmental factors even in psychotic disorders. Other disorders, such as PTSD, clearly rely much more on environmental influences. What may be inherited is a genetic sensitivity to social stress but by no means an increased likelihood of getting a given mental disorder.
It's may be that you're (biologically) predisposed to being sensitive to external stress than you are biologically predisposed to, say, depression.
> Yet hallucinagens may still help potentiate psychosis in someone who destined to turn out that way.
"May." But the simple fact is that we have no way of predicting who will develop schizophrenia (or any other psychotic disorder, or any other mental illness) and thus there's not enough evidence to conclude that because person X took LSD and became schizophrenic afterwards that he would have become schizophrenic without having taken LSD.
> No, I haven't. A good read, huh?
It's just that you said "everything in moderation", which was the title of a post of mine in which I criticized that very sentence for not being helpful.
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Spidey
Stranger
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#472340 - 11/28/01 12:40 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>BZZ. Wrong. Sustained decrease of serotonin does not cause depression<<<
Note, I never used the word "cause". I said potentiate. So don't put words in my mouth please.
Anyway, here's some quick references I grabbed;
"The serotoninergic system is known to modulate mood, emotion, sleep and appetite and thus is implicated in the control of numerous behavioural and physiological functions. Decreased serotoninergic neurotransmission has been proposed to play a key role in the aetiology of depression"
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/serotonin.htm
"Tryptophan depletion has been used extensively in research into depression and has shown that, in patients receiving an SSRI whose depression is in remission, depleting serotonin leads to recurrence of the disorder. "
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/ssrimech.htm
http://www.mastermind1.com/wwwfreelance/SAD/index20.htm
Anyhow, before you rudely accuse someone of being wrong, do alittle research.
I'm not saying you're wrong in your statements, but neither am I in my statement.
Thanks, Spidey.
:)
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Spidey
Stranger
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#472351 - 11/28/01 12:50 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey,
>>>Yes, and what is said about correlation. Correlation does not imply causation. <<<
True. However, I did not use the word "cause".
>>>It's may be that you're (biologically) predisposed to being sensitive to external stress than you are biologically predisposed to, say, depression. <<<
True. Extreneous varibles do play into it. In the "nature, nurture" debate, I lean towards "nature".
But yeah, there are more factors than just serotonin that determine depression. Some people find SSRIs to be ineffective treatments. Thus serotonin is not always the key.
>>>thus there's not enough evidence to conclude that because person X took LSD and became schizophrenic afterwards that he would have become schizophrenic without having taken LSD. <<<
True, hind sight can be 20/20 or a blinder. The point I was making is that psychedelics *could* potentiate an underlying condition.
>>>It's just that you said "everything in moderation", which was the title of a post of mine in which I criticized that very sentence for not being helpful. <<<
Perhaps you don't find it to be helpful. Words over the internet rarely are helpful. But I do believe those are words to live by. Not that I always do. Sometimes the senses are better enjoyed in excess.
Take care, gotta run, (at work)
-Spidey.
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Anonymous
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#472357 - 11/28/01 12:57 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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thats right spidey, stand up to the man
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#472487 - 11/28/01 03:15 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Note, I never used the word "cause". I said potentiate. So don't put words in my mouth please.
What you said was:
"Heavy abuse of Serotoninergic Drugs can potentiate depressive episodes due to a sustained decrease in serotonin."
Which is equivalent to saying that these drugs can increase depression caused by a decrease in serotonin. So what you said was equivalent to cause, even though you didn't specifically use that word.
I'll break it right apart for you:
"Heavy abuse of Serotoninergic Drugs can potentiate depressive episodes..."
meaning: 'heavy abuse of Serotonergic Drugs can make more potent depressive episodes'
"...due to a sustained decrease in serotonin."
meaning 'caused by decreased serotonin.'
So yes, what you said was: 'Heavy abuse of Serotonergic Drugs can worsen depressive episodes caused by decreased serotonin.'
> Anyhow, before you rudely accuse someone of being wrong, do alittle research.
I have done research. I've taken courses about stuff like this. So, don't tell me I haven't done "a little" research.
f/ "Culture and Mental Illness: A Client-Centered Approach" by Richard J. Castillo (a pupil of Arthur Kleinmann)
"Among the reasons for change in underlying theory is that after thousands of studies and many millions of dollars spent on research, the laboratory confirmation of specific brain diseases as the underlying causes of the hundreds of mental disorders in DSM-IV has not arrived as expected. Of course, numerous brain abnormalities have been found to be correlated with various mental disorders, but none of them have been confirmed as causing the mental disorders." p.10
"...in the case of major depression, studies have found abnormalities in neurotransmitters associated with depression, but the relationships involve several neurotransmitters in complex interactions that are not yet fully understood. As a result, researchers now generally agree that no single neurotransmitter system is involved in a specific and isolated manner with major depression. And again, these abnormalities could be the effects of depression and not the cause." p. 10
"Furthermore, DSM-IV goes on to state, "Most laboratory abnormalities are state dependent (i.e., affected by the presence or absence of depressive symptoms), but some findings may precede the onset of the episode or persist after its remission"" p.11
from DSM-IV-TR, by the APA, for Major Depressive Episode
"Associated laboratory findings. No laboratory findings that are diagnostic of a Major Depressive Episode have been identified." p. 352
> True. However, I did not use the word "cause".
No, but you implied causation. The meaning of what you said was pointing to causation.
> The point I was making is that psychedelics *could* potentiate an underlying condition.
Fine, but please understand that since you didn't say that, I picked at the point.
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Spidey
Stranger
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#472803 - 11/28/01 07:27 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>>>I've taken courses about stuff like this. So, don't tell me I haven't done "a little" research. <<<
Good, good. Psy is interesting stuff.
Myself, I have a Bachlor of Science degree in Psychology. Graduated 4 years ago. Went into Sales instead. (go figure.)
In the future, when posting, I'll mind my semantics. Dam near every arguement via the internet boils down to semanitcs.
I see we come from different schools of thought. That's good. I prefer the company of those who differ from me in thought more than those who are more similar to me in thought.
It's been a pleasure talkin' to ya. I look forward to butting heads again sometime.
peace :)
-Spidey.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#472866 - 11/28/01 08:17 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually it was anthropology (psychiatric antrhopology, but we still went over the biopsychosocial perspective)
Peace though.
Kid
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#473047 - 11/28/01 10:55 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is my understanding that not all hallucinogens cause depletion of serotonin.
MDMA, yes, because it causes a release (more like a flood, I guess) of serotonin. The serotonin get's released, broken down, and it's gone. So you end up with decreased levels.
Hallucinogens like LSD and psilocybin (tryptamines), however, are structurally similar to serotonin. They "take the place" of serotonin in the brain, and bind to 5-HT sites on neurons (as well as histamine, ACh, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine sites). Some evidence actually points to this class of drugs blocking the serotonin pathways in the brain (meaning less serotonin is used).
So no. I don't think LSD and psilocybin (and the rest of the tryptamine hallucinogens) cause depletion of serotonin levels.
A good read is "Postulated Mechanisms of LSD", linked here:
http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~ivl/writing/non_fiction/lsd/
It's a little technical, but an excellent read.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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 Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473166 - 11/29/01 12:51 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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At the end of the day, if substances like sugar, caffeine and nicotine can effect brain chemistry, you'd have to infer that psilocin will too...
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#473186 - 11/29/01 01:12 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I didn't say that it doesn't effect brain chemistry. I said that it doesn't (or at least appears to not) deplete serotonin levels.
Of COURSE it changes brain chemistry (be it temporary or permanent...i lean towards temporary). If you want to compare it to sugar, caffeine, and nicotine...well then you might as well say that everything changes brain chemistry. You reading this post, right now, is changing your brain chemistry.
I still stand by my statement: tryptamine hallucinogens don't deplete serotonin.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473239 - 11/29/01 02:46 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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> You reading this post, right now, is changing your brain chemistry.
Exactly, which is why it's important not to overstate or understate brain chemistry, both what causes it to change, and what changes in it can cause.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#473242 - 11/29/01 02:48 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Exactly. I think what we should discuss, when the topic of "what are the long term effects of (insert drug here)" comes up, are those changes in brain chemistry most commonly referred to as "damage".
If we stick to that (which, I think, is what people are asking when the post the question of this thread) then no, mushrooms most likely do not cause long term damage.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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felix
Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 10,503
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473263 - 11/29/01 04:01 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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what about the advanced aging i've heard of....come on geniuses, clarify. is there any physical damage?
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Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug
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Spidey
Stranger
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473310 - 11/29/01 06:27 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, by inhibition of Serotonin, there would be, in effect, less serotonin in your brain than there should be. The neurotransmitter has effectually been blocked from release, but, it is my understanding, that it continues to be "reuptaked" (if that is a word).
This would result in the brain being left with below normal levels of serotonin, which it would then have to release over time to back to its normal level.
Not all hallucinagenic drugs act primarily on Serotonin. There are also, Anticholinergic and Catecholamine-like psychedelics that impart their effects via different methods than the serotoninergic psychedelics.
Reading thru my texts, I cannot find a timeline for how long it takes serotonin to return to normal levels, but one may assume that continued drug use would further disrupt this return to normal levels.
MDMA has been in the spot light in recent years due to its increased popularity. It is quite possible that different drugs may effectually inhibit serotonin transmission better than, or to a greater extent than others. Resulting in varying degrees of depletion depending on which drug is being studied.
Also, the extent to which drugs will act upon a person's physiology is dependent upon that person's individual makeup, length and duration of use, potency and dosage, etc. So generalizations about to what extent they do deplete serotonion is just that, a generalization. But any drug that acts by inhibiting the release of a neurotransmitter, is in effect, depleting the brain of that neurotransmitter (at least for the duration of use.) After use, the rate in which serotonin, in this case, returns to normal, I cannot comment on without further readings.
Thanks, for the link. I'll check it out on my lunch-break.
Please reply and let me know if I'm somewhat coherent. Haven't had my coffee yet :)
-Spidey.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#473686 - 11/29/01 02:27 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry, but I think you are wrong.
The reuptake process does not cause a decrease in serotonin levels in the brain. Reuptake is the process through which a neuron, after having dumped some serotonin (or any neurotransmitter) into the synapse, pulls the serotonin back into it's holding cells. In this way, serotonin can be used again when needed.
Now. If LSD (or another tryptamine hallucinogen) were to block the release of serotonin but not block the reuptake action, then serotonin levels in the synapse would drop for the duration of the drug's presence in the brain. The serotonin that was blocked from being released, however, is still there, waiting to be used. The drug wears off, serotonin blockage stops, and neurons begin releasing serotonin exactly as before.
Also, anticholinergic drugs are not always classified as hallucinogens. I have seen many references to them, and heard many people speak of them as, deleriants. Not hallucinogens, in my opinion.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473726 - 11/29/01 03:01 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Deliriants and hallucinogens are not mutually exclusive categories. The way those terms are used is to describe their most prominent features (deliriants being primarily scary, delirium inducing substances and hallucinogens being primarily drugs which may cause [pseudo]hallucinations).
A drug can be a deliriant while being a hallucinogen, or it may be a deliriant without any hallucinogenic activity, just as a hallucinogen may or may not show deliriant activity.
These things exist on a spectrum, not as separate categories.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#473764 - 11/29/01 03:57 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Excellent point.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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StankyBitch
member
Registered: 07/23/01
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 Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473792 - 11/29/01 04:14 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here's a trophy, Kid. Your posts are some of the most ABSTRACT posts I have ever read. Anyway, If I picked 7 as the winning number out of ten, you wouldn't be CONCRETE and say, "I pick six". Nope, you're the guy who would say, "Seven is not the winning number". Therefore, you're picking numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6, 8, 9, and 10. Feel free to bitch because I know you will.
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Spidey
Stranger
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#473913 - 11/29/01 06:01 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey, how's it going. Thanks again for the link. Made for good readin' this afternoon.
I'm agreeing with you up to this point:
>>>The drug wears off, serotonin blockage stops, and neurons begin releasing serotonin exactly as before. <<<
My thinking is, after being inhibited for the duration of the drug experience, it takes time for the release of serotonin to be back at a normal level.
An example would be:
The kitchen sink. The basin, represents the brain. The faucet, releases serotonin. The drain, reuptakes serotonin.
Now, assuming you plug the drain halfway, so that it drains, but that the flow from the faucet still can fill the sink.
Apply a serotonin blocking drug. In this example, that would be equal to turning the faucet off. So now no more water is flowing, but it is continuing to slowly flow down the drain.
The sink empties, or at least partially empties.
Then the drug action wears off. In the example, we turn the faucet back on. The sink WILL fill up again, but its gonna take some time. In the meantime while we wait for the sink to fill up, we have a water deficit.
Of course, we could refill the sink up faster with a full blast flood from the faucet.
What I am in question of, is how fast does serotonin return to normal levels?
I would think it is safe to say, that after a single drug episode, this replentishment would occur quickly.
But with chronic use over an extended amount of time, years, the time it would take to replentish would be longer.
Some factors that would be important would be duration of use and dosage. What I was originally talkin about was dosing once every 3-7 days (or more often) for a period of 3 years. And increasing dosage when necessary to compensate for tolerance.
Now, one time occassional use, I would say that 99.9% of the time will cause no long term effects. But chronic LSD use for long periods of time MAY cause long term effects in some individuals.
(Defining Long term as: more than a couple days but less than a couple years. Meaning, I'm not implying any permanent condition.)
Let me know what you think,
-Spidey.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: StankyBitch]
#473992 - 11/29/01 07:16 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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And your point is pointless. Thanks for your input.
> Feel free to bitch because I know you will.
Did you bitch at me so that I'd bitch at you back?
BTW, I make a lot of concrete points. Even if some of my points are abstract, you should remember that language is an abstract representation of our reality. Abstract points don't mean that they're any less useful.
Perhaps your abstract reasoning capabilities are not working?
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
#474293 - 11/30/01 12:16 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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There's one mistake in your analogy (although, I must say, it IS a good one).
Ok. So let's say your sink is a synapse. The faucet is the presynaptic terminal, and the drain serves as the serotonin reuptake function.
Here's what normally happens (without any drug influence). A signal comes down the axon from the neuron and reaches the presynaptic terminal. This signals the terminal to open some vacules that are full of serotonin (the water). The serotonin floods into the synapse, and connects with the dendrite on the other side of the synapse (a dendrite is an extention of a neuron, kind of the "input" end, while the axon is the "output" end). The serotonin binds to it's specific sites on the dendrite and causes the dendrite to send a message down to it's neuron, thus completing the link.
The serotonin that is floating around in the synapse can not stay there, or else it would continue to excite the dendrite. So one of two things happen (or a combination of both). MAO comes in and breaks down serotonin into it's metabolites, or the serotonin reuptake comes into effect. The presynaptic terminal uses reuptake to "capture" some of the serotonin it has released, and pulls it back into vacules so that it can be used again (and thus eliminating the need to produce more).
The key element here is that when the neuron connecting to the presynaptic terminal is not excited, there is no serotonin in the synapse at all. The natural state of a synapse is to be void of all neurotransmitters.
So in your analogy, the sink would only have water in it while the tap is running. If the tap turns off, the water drains out. This is natural and completely expected. When more water is needed, the tap turns on and water enters the sink.
When a drug like LSD wears off, there is no time required for neurons to "fill up the sink" with serotonin. The sink is naturally empty. What LSD does is come along and pretend to be serotonin. It binds to 5HT (serotonin) sites on the dendrite just like natural serotonin, and also inhibits the terminal from releasing serotonin. There is no loss of serotonin. When the LSD is gone, the inhibition of the terminal is gone, and neurotransmition returns to normal.
End of story.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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NDK
member
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 186
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
#474412 - 11/30/01 03:28 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Amateur biochemical neuroscience apart.....it is my experience that taking loads of shrooms on a regular basis can fuck with your mind.
Hey - you can alway find some research to back up a point but if you really want to find out then take them on a very regular basis and find out for yourself! I know I did.
I tend to grow a batch, take a few doses, give the rest away and then stop for about 6 months. No problems. No worries.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: NDK]
#474443 - 11/30/01 04:25 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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> Hey - you can alway find some research to back up a point but if you really want to find out then take them on a very regular basis and find out for yourself!
Actually, that's one of the worst ways to find out. You, as a single subject, are not able to know whether or not your reaction is statistically significant. You cannot know whether or not other people will react the same way. You also can't really know that the etiology of your reaction originated with mushrooms.
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HB
Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 42,528
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#477901 - 12/03/01 01:14 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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who cares about statistics? it's all about individuality, everybody is different, no need to group results together for everyone.
sorry i just don't like statistics, they are worthless IMO, because it's all about the individual. for example, just because a statistic says "1 out of 100,000 will have a dangerous reaction to E" or whatever doesn't mean that it won't happen to you (that was fake but it was just an example) do you understand what I'm saying?
sorry this isn't meant to attack you Kid I'm just saying my thoughts on how much I hate statistics
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: HB]
#478303 - 12/03/01 12:40 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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But the statistic would allow you to judge the risk.
Example: if the statistic was "1 in every 100,000 people will have a dangerous reaction to E", I would still take it because the odds are in my favor. If it was something like "1 in every 2 people will have a dangerous reaction to E" I would certainly not take E, because the odds are stacked against me.
See my point? I do agree that it is kind of disheatening, being grouped together as "99,999 out of 100,000" or whatever. But the statistics still help out.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: HB]
#478457 - 12/03/01 03:49 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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> who cares about statistics? it's all about individuality, everybody is different, no need to group results together for everyone.
That's exactly my point though. NDK said to do what he did and find out. He's saying that what happened to him will happen to everybody else. I'm making the point that he could be an example of the extreme 1 out of 1000 who gets such a reaction.
Also though, I said that he's in no position to make a claim about the origins of what his problems were.
> just because a statistic says "1 out of 100,000 will have a dangerous reaction to E" or whatever doesn't mean that it won't happen to you (that was fake but it was just an example) do you understand what I'm saying?
Unless you happen to be one of those 99 999 people who doesn't react that way.
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NDK
member
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 186
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
#479085 - 12/04/01 03:20 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm not actually saying that. I was being sarcastic/ironic :-)
What I was trying to say was that looking at the limited research on brain chemistry isn't sufficient to tell what shrooms do to you. There simply hasn't been enough research. But anecdotal evidence suggests that chronic use of such chemicals can have a bad effect on your mind.
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Kid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: NDK]
#479162 - 12/04/01 07:12 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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> What I was trying to say was that looking at the limited research on brain chemistry isn't sufficient to tell what shrooms do to you.
Yup.
> There simply hasn't been enough research.
Yup yup, damned gov't. Fortunately, it looks like MAPS is making some headway.
> But anecdotal evidence suggests that chronic use of such chemicals can have a bad effect on your mind.
Anecdotal evidence also suggests that chronic use of such chemicals can influence your "soul" in a positive way. ;-P
More research needs to be done, you're right.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: NDK]
#479443 - 12/04/01 11:47 AM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Remember: chronic use of any chemical will have bad effects on you :-)
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Majk526
Stranger
Registered: 12/03/01
Posts: 24
Last seen: 21 years, 8 months
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Mavrick127]
#479654 - 12/04/01 03:00 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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let me just say somethin.....yall are frikkin smart as hell...ive been researchin this stuff for about a year and I have learned more in the last two minutes readin all yalls posts....Damn.....now if yall can figure out how to operate can opener thingies...he he
Lata,
Im sotably tober
Edited by Majk526 (12/04/01 03:01 PM)
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