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InvisibleKid
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #473239 - 11/29/01 04:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> You reading this post, right now, is changing your brain chemistry.

Exactly, which is why it's important not to overstate or understate brain chemistry, both what causes it to change, and what changes in it can cause.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
    #473242 - 11/29/01 04:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly. I think what we should discuss, when the topic of "what are the long term effects of (insert drug here)" comes up, are those changes in brain chemistry most commonly referred to as "damage".

If we stick to that (which, I think, is what people are asking when the post the question of this thread) then no, mushrooms most likely do not cause long term damage.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinefelix
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #473263 - 11/29/01 06:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

what about the advanced aging i've heard of....come on geniuses, clarify. is there any physical damage?


--------------------
Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug


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OfflineSpidey
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #473310 - 11/29/01 08:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, by inhibition of Serotonin, there would be, in effect, less serotonin in your brain than there should be. The neurotransmitter has effectually been blocked from release, but, it is my understanding, that it continues to be "reuptaked" (if that is a word).

This would result in the brain being left with below normal levels of serotonin, which it would then have to release over time to back to its normal level.

Not all hallucinagenic drugs act primarily on Serotonin. There are also, Anticholinergic and Catecholamine-like psychedelics that impart their effects via different methods than the serotoninergic psychedelics.

Reading thru my texts, I cannot find a timeline for how long it takes serotonin to return to normal levels, but one may assume that continued drug use would further disrupt this return to normal levels.

MDMA has been in the spot light in recent years due to its increased popularity. It is quite possible that different drugs may effectually inhibit serotonin transmission better than, or to a greater extent than others. Resulting in varying degrees of depletion depending on which drug is being studied.

Also, the extent to which drugs will act upon a person's physiology is dependent upon that person's individual makeup, length and duration of use, potency and dosage, etc. So generalizations about to what extent they do deplete serotonion is just that, a generalization. But any drug that acts by inhibiting the release of a neurotransmitter, is in effect, depleting the brain of that neurotransmitter (at least for the duration of use.) After use, the rate in which serotonin, in this case, returns to normal, I cannot comment on without further readings.

Thanks, for the link. I'll check it out on my lunch-break.

Please reply and let me know if I'm somewhat coherent. Haven't had my coffee yet :)

-Spidey.



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
    #473686 - 11/29/01 04:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, but I think you are wrong.

The reuptake process does not cause a decrease in serotonin levels in the brain. Reuptake is the process through which a neuron, after having dumped some serotonin (or any neurotransmitter) into the synapse, pulls the serotonin back into it's holding cells. In this way, serotonin can be used again when needed.

Now. If LSD (or another tryptamine hallucinogen) were to block the release of serotonin but not block the reuptake action, then serotonin levels in the synapse would drop for the duration of the drug's presence in the brain. The serotonin that was blocked from being released, however, is still there, waiting to be used. The drug wears off, serotonin blockage stops, and neurons begin releasing serotonin exactly as before.

Also, anticholinergic drugs are not always classified as hallucinogens. I have seen many references to them, and heard many people speak of them as, deleriants. Not hallucinogens, in my opinion.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #473726 - 11/29/01 05:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Deliriants and hallucinogens are not mutually exclusive categories. The way those terms are used is to describe their most prominent features (deliriants being primarily scary, delirium inducing substances and hallucinogens being primarily drugs which may cause [pseudo]hallucinations).

A drug can be a deliriant while being a hallucinogen, or it may be a deliriant without any hallucinogenic activity, just as a hallucinogen may or may not show deliriant activity.

These things exist on a spectrum, not as separate categories.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
    #473764 - 11/29/01 05:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent point.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineStankyBitch
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #473792 - 11/29/01 06:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Here's a trophy, Kid. Your posts are some of the most ABSTRACT posts I have ever read. Anyway, If I picked 7 as the winning number out of ten, you wouldn't be CONCRETE and say, "I pick six". Nope, you're the guy who would say, "Seven is not the winning number". Therefore, you're picking numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6, 8, 9, and 10. Feel free to bitch because I know you will.


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OfflineSpidey
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #473913 - 11/29/01 08:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, how's it going. Thanks again for the link. Made for good readin' this afternoon.

I'm agreeing with you up to this point:

>>>The drug wears off, serotonin blockage stops, and neurons begin releasing serotonin exactly as before. <<<

My thinking is, after being inhibited for the duration of the drug experience, it takes time for the release of serotonin to be back at a normal level.

An example would be:

The kitchen sink. The basin, represents the brain. The faucet, releases serotonin. The drain, reuptakes serotonin.

Now, assuming you plug the drain halfway, so that it drains, but that the flow from the faucet still can fill the sink.

Apply a serotonin blocking drug. In this example, that would be equal to turning the faucet off. So now no more water is flowing, but it is continuing to slowly flow down the drain.

The sink empties, or at least partially empties.

Then the drug action wears off. In the example, we turn the faucet back on. The sink WILL fill up again, but its gonna take some time. In the meantime while we wait for the sink to fill up, we have a water deficit.

Of course, we could refill the sink up faster with a full blast flood from the faucet.

What I am in question of, is how fast does serotonin return to normal levels?

I would think it is safe to say, that after a single drug episode, this replentishment would occur quickly.

But with chronic use over an extended amount of time, years, the time it would take to replentish would be longer.

Some factors that would be important would be duration of use and dosage. What I was originally talkin about was dosing once every 3-7 days (or more often) for a period of 3 years. And increasing dosage when necessary to compensate for tolerance.

Now, one time occassional use, I would say that 99.9% of the time will cause no long term effects. But chronic LSD use for long periods of time MAY cause long term effects in some individuals.

(Defining Long term as: more than a couple days but less than a couple years. Meaning, I'm not implying any permanent condition.)

Let me know what you think,

-Spidey.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: StankyBitch]
    #473992 - 11/29/01 09:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And your point is pointless. Thanks for your input.

> Feel free to bitch because I know you will.

Did you bitch at me so that I'd bitch at you back?

BTW, I make a lot of concrete points. Even if some of my points are abstract, you should remember that language is an abstract representation of our reality. Abstract points don't mean that they're any less useful.

Perhaps your abstract reasoning capabilities are not working?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Spidey]
    #474293 - 11/30/01 02:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There's one mistake in your analogy (although, I must say, it IS a good one).

Ok. So let's say your sink is a synapse. The faucet is the presynaptic terminal, and the drain serves as the serotonin reuptake function.

Here's what normally happens (without any drug influence). A signal comes down the axon from the neuron and reaches the presynaptic terminal. This signals the terminal to open some vacules that are full of serotonin (the water). The serotonin floods into the synapse, and connects with the dendrite on the other side of the synapse (a dendrite is an extention of a neuron, kind of the "input" end, while the axon is the "output" end). The serotonin binds to it's specific sites on the dendrite and causes the dendrite to send a message down to it's neuron, thus completing the link.

The serotonin that is floating around in the synapse can not stay there, or else it would continue to excite the dendrite. So one of two things happen (or a combination of both). MAO comes in and breaks down serotonin into it's metabolites, or the serotonin reuptake comes into effect. The presynaptic terminal uses reuptake to "capture" some of the serotonin it has released, and pulls it back into vacules so that it can be used again (and thus eliminating the need to produce more).

The key element here is that when the neuron connecting to the presynaptic terminal is not excited, there is no serotonin in the synapse at all. The natural state of a synapse is to be void of all neurotransmitters.

So in your analogy, the sink would only have water in it while the tap is running. If the tap turns off, the water drains out. This is natural and completely expected. When more water is needed, the tap turns on and water enters the sink.

When a drug like LSD wears off, there is no time required for neurons to "fill up the sink" with serotonin. The sink is naturally empty. What LSD does is come along and pretend to be serotonin. It binds to 5HT (serotonin) sites on the dendrite just like natural serotonin, and also inhibits the terminal from releasing serotonin. There is no loss of serotonin. When the LSD is gone, the inhibition of the terminal is gone, and neurotransmition returns to normal.

End of story.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleNDK
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: trendal]
    #474412 - 11/30/01 05:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Amateur biochemical neuroscience apart.....it is my experience that taking loads of shrooms on a regular basis can fuck with your mind.

Hey - you can alway find some research to back up a point but if you really want to find out then take them on a very regular basis and find out for yourself! I know I did.

I tend to grow a batch, take a few doses, give the rest away and then stop for about 6 months. No problems. No worries.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: NDK]
    #474443 - 11/30/01 06:25 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> Hey - you can alway find some research to back up a point but if you really want to find out then take them on a very regular basis and find out for yourself!

Actually, that's one of the worst ways to find out. You, as a single subject, are not able to know whether or not your reaction is statistically significant. You cannot know whether or not other people will react the same way. You also can't really know that the etiology of your reaction originated with mushrooms.


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OfflineHB
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
    #477901 - 12/03/01 03:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

who cares about statistics? it's all about individuality, everybody is different, no need to group results together for everyone.

sorry i just don't like statistics, they are worthless IMO, because it's all about the individual. for example, just because a statistic says "1 out of 100,000 will have a dangerous reaction to E" or whatever doesn't mean that it won't happen to you (that was fake but it was just an example) do you understand what I'm saying?

sorry this isn't meant to attack you Kid I'm just saying my thoughts on how much I hate statistics


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: HB]
    #478303 - 12/03/01 02:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But the statistic would allow you to judge the risk.

Example: if the statistic was "1 in every 100,000 people will have a dangerous reaction to E", I would still take it because the odds are in my favor. If it was something like "1 in every 2 people will have a dangerous reaction to E" I would certainly not take E, because the odds are stacked against me.

See my point? I do agree that it is kind of disheatening, being grouped together as "99,999 out of 100,000" or whatever. But the statistics still help out.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: HB]
    #478457 - 12/03/01 05:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> who cares about statistics? it's all about individuality, everybody is different, no need to group results together for everyone.

That's exactly my point though. NDK said to do what he did and find out. He's saying that what happened to him will happen to everybody else. I'm making the point that he could be an example of the extreme 1 out of 1000 who gets such a reaction.

Also though, I said that he's in no position to make a claim about the origins of what his problems were.

> just because a statistic says "1 out of 100,000 will have a dangerous reaction to E" or whatever doesn't mean that it won't happen to you (that was fake but it was just an example) do you understand what I'm saying?

Unless you happen to be one of those 99 999 people who doesn't react that way.


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InvisibleNDK
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Kid]
    #479085 - 12/04/01 05:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not actually saying that. I was being sarcastic/ironic :-)

What I was trying to say was that looking at the limited research on brain chemistry isn't sufficient to tell what shrooms do to you. There simply hasn't been enough research. But anecdotal evidence suggests that chronic use of such chemicals can have a bad effect on your mind.


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InvisibleKid
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: NDK]
    #479162 - 12/04/01 09:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

> What I was trying to say was that looking at the limited research on brain chemistry isn't sufficient to tell what shrooms do to you.

Yup.

> There simply hasn't been enough research.

Yup yup, damned gov't. Fortunately, it looks like MAPS is making some headway.

> But anecdotal evidence suggests that chronic use of such chemicals can have a bad effect on your mind.

Anecdotal evidence also suggests that chronic use of such chemicals can influence your "soul" in a positive way. ;-P

More research needs to be done, you're right.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: NDK]
    #479443 - 12/04/01 01:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Remember: chronic use of any chemical will have bad effects on you :-)


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMajk526
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Re: Long term effects of 'Shrooms? [Re: Mavrick127]
    #479654 - 12/04/01 05:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

let me just say somethin.....yall are frikkin smart as hell...ive been researchin this stuff for about a year and I have learned more in the last two minutes readin all yalls posts....Damn.....now if yall can figure out how to operate can opener thingies...he he

Lata,
Im sotably tober


Edited by Majk526 (12/04/01 05:01 PM)


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