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 daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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 Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?!  [Re: Moonshoe]
#4714698 - 09/26/05 02:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is no god, there is no existence, there is no suffering.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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 Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
 
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
#4714737 - 09/26/05 02:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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God don't give a shit.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
#4714774 - 09/26/05 02:23 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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How would it be relinquishing omnipotence entirely if god chose not to stop man from making his own choices?
It goes like this:
Say I reach a fork in the road. I can go left or right and have free will to choose either.
If God is omnipotent and therefore knows everything, when he knows I will go left, my going right makes him in error and so not omnipotent.
Either I cannot go right (no free will) or I can and do go right, and God is wrong (not omnipotent).
Which is it? It can't be both.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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primal
undefined
Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 13
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
#4714835 - 09/26/05 02:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, the thing is, God is the ONLY thing in existence. He's not separate, watching over us, judging us, and all that garbage that is found in the "Holy Bible." He is the absolute, the uncreated, the undying, the eternal. Everything that God experiences is himself, because he is ALL THERE IS. He is me, he is you, he is ALL THINGS. So when you know that people suffer, know also that this suffering is something that God is doing to himself. Or herself, or itself, or whatever.
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blowback
Nothing to lose,nothing to gein.
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 376
Loc: Houston Tx.
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: primal]
#4714893 - 09/26/05 02:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think we have pain and suffering so we will question the existance of God. Those who follow with faith regardless of suffering reap the rewards of the test.
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"Daddy, what's the difference between ignorance and apathy?"
"Son, I don't know, and I don't care"
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: primal]
#4715298 - 09/26/05 04:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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That is simple Pantheism [Pan = All, theism = belief in a personal creator]. The GOD of the Bible is PanENtheistic - suffusing creation but not created, as well as transcending creation. The GOD of the Bhagavad Gita is more along your description in that the material universe is considered to be GOD's 'material energies' with which he is co-extensive. The emanationist theory of creation in Jewish Kabbalism has similar pantheistic overtones - the ten spheres of creation are progressively denser 'rays' of GOD's original uncreated light. GOD in the Qur'an utterly transcends creation, yet is called "Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful," and is said to be 'closer to us than our jugular vein.' So you see, by settling on one intellectual formula, one does a tremendous injustice to the Truth of the matter.
One must concede that when speaking of GOD, one must admit of Mystery - the inability to Know the Truth intellectually. One can wonder, one can love, one can worship as modes of Knowing, but one cannot Know GOD through intellectual understanding. Every mystic says as much.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Aumakua
Stranger
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 29
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715315 - 09/26/05 04:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
How would it be relinquishing omnipotence entirely if god chose not to stop man from making his own choices?
It goes like this:
Say I reach a fork in the road. I can go left or right and have free will to choose either.
If God is omnipotent and therefore knows everything, when he knows I will go left, my going right makes him in error and so not omnipotent.
Either I cannot go right (no free will) or I can and do go right, and God is wrong (not omnipotent).
Which is it? It can't be both.
See again you make no sense.Even if god knows what choices you will make does not mean that you do not have free will.You are still choosing for yourself but god knows which you will choose in advance.For example lets say you come to a fork in the road...You can go right or left but god already knows which you will choose even though it is your free will to choose which way.Someone else knowing the outcome of your decision does not prevent you from having free will.Its not that you dont have free will its that god wqould be able to correctly predict your decision.So therefore god can know everything and you can still have free will.Free will is the lack of interference by god.Even if god knows everything he is still not interfering because he has done nothing to change the course of events.Your logic is highly flawed.If god had exerted any force in any way to change the outcome then you can claim what you claim.But otherwise it makes no sense logically.
Besides what you are arguing is whether god is infallible or not.Being omnipotent is not the same as infallible.You can have unlimited power but still be wrong.You can have unlimited power but yet still have a lifespan.
Personally I believe god is indeed fallible but that is irrelevant really.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: blowback]
#4715322 - 09/26/05 04:10 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you are half right. The Book of Job is one of the oldest in the Bible. He never questioned GOD's existence but demonstrated transcedental faith: 'Though He slay me, yet will I worship Him.' Having lost his children and animals through death, finally being covered with boils, Job did not forsake his faith in GOD. GOD then restored Job's (not resurrecting the dead however) health and estate many times over.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715381 - 09/26/05 04:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
How would it be relinquishing omnipotence entirely if god chose not to stop man from making his own choices?
It goes like this:
Say I reach a fork in the road. I can go left or right and have free will to choose either.
If God is omnipotent and therefore knows everything, when he knows I will go left, my going right makes him in error and so not omnipotent.
Either I cannot go right (no free will) or I can and do go right, and God is wrong (not omnipotent).
Which is it? It can't be both.
god doesnt caire wich way you go. God doesnt make mistakes, because he doesnt make right or wrong answers.
he is all that isnt the center of all extreames the balance of every thing, He is life giving water or deadly ice and snow, he is the fog in the mountains and the sap within a desert plant, you can find him running long the canyons or laping at the lakes edge. You can find him within the earths deepest recesess or up floating lazely in the sky.
Each have different ways of beeing, all just doing what they do, always changing and flowing threw cause and effect.
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qhr0me
o = oo
Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 203
Loc: sun diego, ca
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
#4715473 - 09/26/05 04:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said:
He is best represented as the sun.
i think it (coz you really don't wanna get all sexist when it comes to gawd) is best represented as a photon. then that 'let there be light business' is all taken care of and all photons are exactly identical and linked via quantum entaglement with the primordial phot0n, so all photons are in fact one and pervade the universe and all that jazz.
is it sunday yet?-)
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: qhr0me]
#4715511 - 09/26/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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very interesting
i like it
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
#4715541 - 09/26/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Even if god knows what choices you will make does not mean that you do not have free will
Explain to me how God can know I will go left and I freely chose to go right.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#4715551 - 09/26/05 04:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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God doesnt make mistakes, because he doesnt make right or wrong answers
But if you say I have free will, you must concede that God is less than omniscient.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715579 - 09/26/05 05:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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You have free will yes you do. But do you work in the light for the greater of all good or do you dwell in the shadows and work for onesself with out compasion for the others effected by ones actions?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#4715598 - 09/26/05 05:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Uh... what?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Aumakua
Stranger
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 29
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715607 - 09/26/05 05:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Even if god knows what choices you will make does not mean that you do not have free will
Explain to me how God can know I will go left and I freely chose to go right.
God knows in advance which way you will choose to go.Therefore whichever way you end up choosing he already knew the answer in advance.If you freely choose to go right,god would have already known that you would of chosen to go right.If you would have gone left instead god would have known that you would have chose to go left.What you are saying is illogical.
What you are saying is that god will know your going left and you will freely choose to go right.Thats incredibly illogical.If you choose right god will know in advance that you would have chosen that.If you chose left again god will already have known in advance.Its not logical nor plausible that you will choose the opposite of what god knows because since he is all knowing he will know your choice in advance.yet because he did not alter your course in anyway it is still free will.I suggest you sit and think this one over a bit because what you are saying is illogical and senseless.
You are assuming you will be able to choose the opposite of what god knows but he will have already known so no matter what choice you have made he will know the answer in advance.
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Aumakua
Stranger
Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 29
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715623 - 09/26/05 05:07 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
God doesnt make mistakes, because he doesnt make right or wrong answers
But if you say I have free will, you must concede that God is less than omniscient.
Is english your native language?I ask this because you make little sense in your logic.Free will has nothing to do with god's omniscience (all know or having infinite knowledge).You can freely choose your path no matter what(this is free will) but god will know your choices and answers before you even decide.But since he does not in any way alter your course it is still free will.It is still what you chose.So explain how god's omniscience has anything to do with whether or not man has free will?
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715634 - 09/26/05 05:09 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Explain to me how God can know I will go left and I freely chose to go right."
explain to me why you cant? he understands you so well that he knows what you are going to do before you do... but it is still you doing it, freely and of your own accord...
(im not nescessarily saying i believe that but hypothetically i dont see the contradiction you speak of. Just because god knows in advance
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
#4715646 - 09/26/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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uh never mind you may get it someday.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
#4715662 - 09/26/05 05:15 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aumakua said:
God knows in advance which way you will choose to go.Therefore whichever way you end up choosing he already knew the answer in advance.If you freely choose to go right,god would have already known that you would of chosen to go right.If you would have gone left instead god would have known that you would have chose to go left.What you are saying is illogical.
Actually, what you are saying is illogical. If God can know in advance which way you would choose, then you didn't really have a choice. You just followed the path predicted by God.
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