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InvisibleMoonshoe
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if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?!
    #4714182 - 09/26/05 02:48 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

one of the biggest sources for confusion about god that people suffer is that they will almost invariably try to ascribe human qualities to god. They say god is all powerfull, all knowing, eternal... everything that humans are NOT. and then they try to understand why god acts differently than they would if they were god!

anyone else see whats wrong with that? take the classic question:
if god exists, why does he let people suffer?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

because suffering, fear of suffering, and preferance for non suffering, as well as the moralistic idea that causing suffering is wrong, are all human ideas and thus have as little relevance to gods actions as the moral stances of aphids have to us.

Until you stop trying to make god do THY will, your not gonna get it.

God is everywhere and everything and everytime. he gave life to hitler and jesus, buddha and hugh heffner, dahmer and gandhi. He sustained them and fed them, and when they died they ALL returned to him. God is not GOOD, in the sense that we understand. He  does not share your values of justice or right and wrong.

He is best represented as the sun. The same sun warms, sustains and makes life possible for the most evil and the most good. The sun plays no favourites.

God creates, sustains, and observes.

Such is my understanding anyways. God is tao, the univeral dreamer, not some bearded man who gives a shit if you stub your toe or for that matter get eaten by a cannibal.

None of this is mean to to be depressing.

:grin: :grin: :grin:

edit: oh i forgot something, before you get all upset. GOD loves you! its true. god is all loving. The difficulty is, he loves YOU (and jesus, mother theresa, the pope etc) EXACTLY the same amount that he loves dahmer, hitler, and geoge bush, and for that matter, a pile of dog poo. You cant earn gods love or buy it or win it, your born with it and you never ever lose it. God loves the bacteria eating your flesh just as much as he loves you! thats what it means to be ALL LOVING!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714214 - 09/26/05 02:54 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

the moralistic idea that causing suffering is wrong, are all human ideas and thus have as little relevance to gods actions as the moral stances of aphids have to us.

then

GOD loves you! its true. god is all loving. The difficulty is...

Way to go describing how human ideas are irrelevant to a discussion of God, then using a pile of human ideas to describe how God loves me. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
    #4714347 - 09/26/05 03:16 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"Way to go describing how human ideas are irrelevant to a discussion of God, then using a pile of human ideas to describe how God loves me."

maybe i see what your saying... but then again maybe i dont.

What im trying to say is that if god does "love" us, its not in at all the way that we as humans typically think of love.

humans tend to think of love as kind of a resevoir of affection to be doled out to things and individuals in order of how valuable they are to us... we love our family most, our close friends next, then our pets etc. We say we love candy or tv, because those things impact our happiness.

This kind of thinking is totally irelevant to god. When i say love i really mean : unconditional acceptance and sustenance. God creates us, sustains us and accepts us regardless of our actions , and then after a time draws us back into himself.

THis could in a way be though of as love, but i was really trying to show that god DOESNT love us, in the way we think of love. We think of love as a basis for favouritism. If we loved our momas, we would give her some of our food, but we wouldnt give it to some random crack head because its reserved for the person we love, aka mommy.

God on the other hand, is ALL loving, and thus his love shows no favouritism.

another example. If we loved someone, we would surely cure there leprosy if we had the means. But god is ALL loving, and thus, he would not intervene because his love for necrotising bacteria is equal to his love for your mom, who is dieing from it.

These examples are used to show just how alien human concepts of love are to god.

See where im going with this?

mwe mwe mwe i love to talk to myself


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OfflineAumakua
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714349 - 09/26/05 03:16 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Suffering exists because God gave humanity free will.Free will means the freedom to do good or bad.Thus the existence of suffering in the face of God does not prove that does not share our view of right or wrong.In fact most laws and morals are based on the bible or based on other laws and morals that were based on the bible.I think that you just have a misunderstanding when it comes to this subject.

Mahalo Cus.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
    #4714380 - 09/26/05 03:21 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"Suffering exists because God gave humanity free will."

exactly how does gods gift of free will relate to the suffering of, oh lets say cancer?

free will does not explain away the condition of suffering. many forms of suffering have no relation to free will. Free will does not factor into being hitten by a falling airplane, for example. Free will does not explain draught, or countless other natural disasters that cause suffering.

I think that is a cop out answer.

"In fact most laws and morals are based on the bible "

The bible has very little to do with god, at least the "laws and morals" part of it. All the laws and morals in the bible are of human origin. Its absolutely laughable to think that a divine, omnipotent god would give a shit if you ate shellfish, or pork, or if you wore "garments of blended fiber". Or any of the other nonsensical bullshit in leviticus and throughout the old testament. All that is human silliness.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/26/05 03:29 PM)


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OfflineAumakua
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714436 - 09/26/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Its not a cop out answer.When it comes to cancer per se humans expose themselves to many many many carcinogens everyday from teflon to cosmetics to medicines and etc.Cancer is merely a malignant growth or tumor caused by abnormal and uncontrolled cell division.Its science not magic.There is always a physical cause for cancer its not spontaneous.However its not always readily apparent what the cause of cancer is.As far as a falling airplane that is human error combined with sheer chance as to may be hit by a falling airplane.So it all really does boil down to free will.People choose to be exposed to carcinogens or unknowningly expose themselves to it by intentional means.People make mistakes in airplanes all the time whether its the mechanic or pilot.People choose to not double check their work people choose to be lazy or choose to fly planes under the influence or in bad weather.

All in all free will accounts for everything.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714445 - 09/26/05 03:32 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

""if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?!""

BECAUSE YOU ARE IN, GOD, WITH GOD, AS GOD!!!...


IF YOU SUFFER... THEN IT IS BECAUSE, YOU ( in GOD through GOD as GOD ) ... Let YOU SUFFER..


IN-FACT.. YOU MAKE YOURSELF, SUFFERING...

GO FIGURE!?!? (yes I am drunk, And yes, I blame KING alcohol!)


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineAumakua
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714468 - 09/26/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

As far as the laws and the bible many laws were handed down by god such as specific ways to worship or conduct their lives as well as the ten commandments which is the only set of rules/laws that applies to non jewish christians also known as gentiles.The ten commandments form the basis of all nearly all modern laws directly and indirectly.God also instructed us as to what is edible or what is non edible.Pork is said to be spiritually unclean thus people were instructed not to eat it.A large portion of the laws and morals aspect of the bible was god-given instructions one way or another.Both directly and indirectly.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
    #4714471 - 09/26/05 03:35 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

'All in all free will accounts for everything. "

i still have to disagree. people who live very healthy lives and avoid all known carcinogenics can still get sick and die. People who take every precaution against STD's can still be raped and get HIV. People can be born and then murderd as infants, before they have ANY ability to use their free will. Some day the sun will burn out and all living things will die, against their will. an earthquake, caused by tectonic plates deep below the earth, can kill unsuspecting villagers, against their will. Natural forces care not for human free will. An asteroid could hit earth with no warning and obliterate thousands of people. A child could be abducted from his room and murderd. Against his will.


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/26/05 03:37 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
    #4714496 - 09/26/05 03:39 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

this question is what originally most lead me to athiesm until i realized that simply because i couldn't answer it didn't mean there was no answer.

some possible answers ive come to consider are these:

in reality only God exists but when he took the form of human consciousness he somehow allowed himself to forget his true nature. suffering is the result of the wrong identification with the body and continues until the person realizes his true nature as not limited to the body. could God be blaimed for creating suffering when he himself was in reality the only suffering?

another explanation: humans descended into a lower state of consciousness (or fell from grace) in which they could longer perceive their connection to God. God gave humans the ability to do and imagine anything they wanted, even horrible suffering. all suffering is like dream suffering, it is unreal from the point of view of the transcendent reality.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Aumakua]
    #4714508 - 09/26/05 03:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Suffering exists because God gave humanity free will

Free will in the context of an omnipotent God makes as much sense as the statement: "I am lying."

If I'm telling the truth, I can't be telling the truth because the statement is that I'm lying.

If I'm lying, I can't be lying because the statement is the truth.

So, if God knows every-thing (omnipotence) and my decisions are things, then God knows my decisions and I am only a helpless follower of what God already has foreknowledge of. But if I can in fact choose, then you must concede that I may choose different than what God already knows I will choose, and so God is not omnipotent.

At least one of the following MUST be true:

1. I do not have free will
2. God is not omnipotent


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Deviate]
    #4714520 - 09/26/05 03:43 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"i still have to disagree. people who live very healthy lives and avoid all known carcinogenics can still get sick and die. People who take every precaution against STD's can still be raped and get HIV. People can be born and then murderd as infants, before they have ANY ability to use their free will. Some day the sun will burn out and all living things will die, against their will. an earthquake, caused by tectonic plates deep below the earth, can kill unsuspecting villagers, against their will. Natural forces care not for human free will. An asteroid could hit earth with no warning and obliterate thousands of people. A child could be abducted from his room and murderd. Against his will.
"

yes but all that happens on the physical plane, which humans chose to allow their consciousness to become attatched to. if you ascend to heaven (or the awareness that you are one with God) then all the problems on earth are like problems in dreams.


Edited by Deviate (09/26/05 03:45 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Deviate]
    #4714526 - 09/26/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"Free will in the context of an omnipotent God makes as much sense as the statement: "I am lying."

If I'm telling the truth, I can't be telling the truth because the statement is that I'm lying.

If I'm lying, I can't be lying because the statement is the truth.

So, if God knows every-thing (omnipotence) and my decisions are things, then God knows my decisions and I am only a helpless follower of what God already has foreknowledge of. But if I can in fact choose, then you must concede that I may choose different than what God already knows I will choose, and so God is not omnipotent.

At least one of the following MUST be true:

1. I do not have free will
2. God is not omnipotent "


what if you are God?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Deviate]
    #4714543 - 09/26/05 03:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

there is a big connection
he is suffering too
help him out
help your self
help eachother
this is the hand of god
our hands


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OfflineAumakua
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714552 - 09/26/05 03:48 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

" still have to disagree. people who live very healthy lives and avoid all known carcinogenics can still get sick and die."

It is impossible to avoid all known carcinogens as there are many in the air and on the ground.Not to mention new carcinogens are discovered all the time.It is still free will as people choose to go places where carcinogens unwittingly are and people choose to use things that contain carcinogens and etc.Its still free will.

"People who take every precaution against STD's can still be raped and get HIV."

Yes but this boils down to the free will of others.Anyone can choose to rape another person and some people do.This is their free will.Again its the free will of people albeit other people.

"People can be born and then murderd as infants, before they have ANY ability to use their free will."

Infants have free will from the day they come into this world perhaps even before although they are in fact limited in many ways.However this boils down to the free will of others who choose to kill.Again free will comes into play albeit the free will of others.

"Some day the sun will burn out and all living things will die, against their will. an earthquake, caused by tectonic plates deep below the earth, can kill unsuspecting villagers, against their will. Natural forces care not for human free will. An asteroid could hit earth with no warning and obliterate thousands of people."

I was thinking more along the lines of quote unqoute evil vs good rather than suffering as a sepereate entity per se.Suffering has nothing to do with good or evil.The evils of this world are man caused by free will.Suffering isnt evil.However in terms of suffering people choose to live.At any moment we can choose to die.Thus again it is our free will to live that caused this suffering however.Again free will.We choose to live when at any moment we can choose to die very easily.Life is not mandatory.It is not a requirement.It is a choice.

"A child could be abducted from his room and murderd. Against his will."

Again the free will of others.Some else chose to kill and so because of their free will others must suffer.I never said it was only ones own free will that cauised suffering.I said it was because of free will period which is a totally different thing all together.It seems your view is merely too narrow to see the big pictures.As one might say, you cannot see the forest through all the trees.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Deviate]
    #4714558 - 09/26/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

what if you are God?

Then if I give my creations free will, I relinquish my omnipotence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/26/05 04:18 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
    #4714603 - 09/26/05 03:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

" Then if I give my creations free will, I relinquish my omnipotence.
"

how so? you are simply choosing not to use it.


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OfflineAumakua
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Diploid]
    #4714614 - 09/26/05 03:59 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

How would it be relinquishing omnipotence entirely if god chose not to stop man from making his own choices?Omnipotence is unlimited power.This includes the power to choose not to interfere in the affairs of man.This lack of interference is what we call free will.God is still omnipotent even by giving his creations free will.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Deviate]
    #4714625 - 09/26/05 04:01 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

"yes but all that happens on the physical plane, which humans chose to allow their consciousness to become attatched to. if you ascend to heaven (or the awareness that you are one with God) then all the problems on earth are like problems in dreams. "

you guys want to know the best advice i can give any of you in this thread?

pay more attention to deviate than to me.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


and other guy, new guy, anamakura or whatever, i think im starting to see what you mean. if god did not give us free will, than he could direct our lives in such a way that nothing bad could ever happen to us... but then we would not truly be alive.

something like that?

thanks for your wisdom.


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OfflineAumakua
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Re: if god exists, why does he let us suffer?!?! [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4714666 - 09/26/05 04:08 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

and other guy, new guy, anamakura or whatever, i think im starting to see what you mean. if god did not give us free will, than he could direct our lives in such a way that nothing bad could ever happen to us... but then we would not truly be alive.

something like that?




Without free will yes we could be directed so that no one suffers but then we'd merely be puppets of gods will with no real existence.We wouldnt have any choice and thus no point of life at all.Essentially we are given free will to learn and advance.The human experience is designed to educate the soul so to speak.A learning place.Everything has a lesson.Good,bad,suffering,etc all has an important lesson but modern mans attachment to the modern idea of good and evil only prompts us to view anything which isnt helpful to us as evil and thus man believes nothing can be learned but rather man learns to fear and avoid.


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