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OfflineLynxRufus
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Increasing potency through species sequencing...
    #4711706 - 09/25/05 11:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Since there are soooo many posts about upping potency (it makes the board so exciting you know :smile: !!! ), I thought I would throw this out.  The wood lovers are known for higher potency for variable reasons.  So are the Pan dung lovers.  They, however, have two probs.  The wood lovers can be unpredictable and often require outside culture for best results.  This, of course, leads to short fruiting spans compared to indoor cubes (all year v. seasonal).  The pans are relatively small (second issue).

So what if one would utilize ps az or cyan and pan cyans easiest parts (substrate colonization) to their fullest without attempting fruiting.  THen chopped substrates up, mixed, pasteurized, and inoculated with some high producing quality strain of Ps Cub, like GT.  Would someone interested in achieving super potent cubs get them?

Sure, many of the desired products would be broken down by pasteurization, but would the byproducts still be readily available for conversion / utilization by the cubs?  Would there be a way to kill off the initial mycelium with out pasteurization to preserve them?



Edited by LynxRufus (09/26/05 12:05 AM)


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OfflineJeremy_Davis
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: LynxRufus]
    #4719750 - 09/27/05 02:26 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Expose the colonized substrate to ozone saturated air for a while (half hour to hour + the time to oxidize and breakdown back into O2). All the living materials should be dead as well as clean, you may be able to spawn directly to this substrate now. Just my guess.
Light and Love,
JD


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Jeremy Davis
Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization, Inc.
Check out the ECHO mushroom blog page to see our lab, growing facility, and more-www.echotech.org/greta


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: LynxRufus]
    #4726667 - 09/28/05 08:00 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

No species sequencing in this case would be to grow out and fruit Copelandia on a set amount of substrate, then sterilize and reinoculate with cubensis to get more fruits. It would not pay to not fruit the copelandias. Most of the used nutrition from the copelandia colonization(mycelium growth) is lost, and will not be carried over to the next species grow. YOU waste MOST of the primary growth of the first species if you don't fruit it.

You wouldn't want to inoculate cubensis into wood lover substrate, it would be less then optimal.


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OfflineLynxRufus
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: EonTan]
    #4732592 - 09/29/05 06:17 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ya, I realize what species sequencing is, thanks.

Half the reason I posted this was because there are so many "increase potency" threads on the advanced forum. I personally think it is a joke because any psilo producing species will be potent enough if grown correctly. If you want more juice, then just grow and eat more. If they are weak, then someone is doing something wrong. Although, it is a nifty idea and if done in a replicable way, could be positive.

Now on to this idea.... Psi Az or Cyans can derive nutrition in quantity from wood substrates that cubs cannot (effectively). So by allowing them to eat it up and then feeding it to the cubs would supply them with the condensed products in a more useable form (ie dead mycelium). I do not see how it would be wasted as the total product would be fed to the cubs. Are you saying the nutrition held in the mycelium would be largely ignored by the cubs? Because I really disagree with that. Once again, the point of this (as so many people seem interested in it) is to make stronger cubes- not to fruit woodlovers. Also, wood products themselves hold a lot of minerals, vitamins, etc and partially digested wood would be "opened" up more to the cubes.

The uneaten wood, while not as optimal as vermiculite or some other items, would add texture and moisture holding abilities.

Compared to what one could get by growing cubes in this fashion as opposed to actually fruiting the woodlovers (bigger fruits, year round fruiting), it may be worth a try.

I will give you this much though, the pan cyans are not hard to grow and fruit and it would be silly to waste them on this.

All in all, its strictly academic for me for reasons previously stated. But knowledge for knowledges sake is still important.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: LynxRufus]
    #4732814 - 09/29/05 07:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

good luck.


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OnlinemushboyS
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: EonTan]
    #4734431 - 09/30/05 01:46 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

ive got a syringe of pan cyan. I plan to clone the largest fruit, grow it, clone largest fruit from that(so on and so forth)

after a couple runs, you can make the mushies that much better.

correct me if i am wrong :P


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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: mushboy]
    #4737369 - 09/30/05 04:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
ive got a syringe of pan cyan. I plan to clone the largest fruit, grow it, clone largest fruit from that(so on and so forth)

after a couple runs, you can make the mushies that much better.

correct me if i am wrong :P




You are wrong. You don't want to clone more than about 2 generations. In addition, the second generation (after cloning twice) would be the same genetically as the first clone except the cells would have divided more times making the mycelium weaker. Stamets talks about this. If you want to select for bigger fruits you need to have a much bigger population with lots of genetic diversity, and you have to use sexual reproduction (meaning growing from spores) for each generation. Further, that assumes that fruit size is heritable. My suspicion is that it is only minorly heritable because we all know substrate makes a huge difference on fruit size. But this is off topic.


As for the original post:
I agree that it would be a waste to not fruit those mushrooms. If you really want to make potent mushrooms so badly that you will sacrifdice yeild, then just do a extract with methanol or ethanol from mushrooms and put that on dried mushrooms. If you do this, you could obtain a 20x extract if you really wanted to. The reason ofcourse people don't do this is because it wastes tons of actives.

I should say though that species sequencing is a great idea if you are going to fruit all the species. If you were to grow cyans on wood and fruit them then use that broken down wood to make a compost with dung then inoculate that with cubensis, that might work. Interesting idea anyway and goodluck.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: LynxRufus]
    #4757435 - 10/05/05 03:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I was pretty close to paying this guy out until I read his second post and its actually quite an interesting idea - since he is right in that Panaeolus and cubensis lack a variety of enzymes to metabolise lignious substrates, but if they were able to exploit the substrate already partially metabolised by a previous psilocybe-producing host the possibilities are quite interesting. Species sequencing might enable the cubensis to exploit the substrate it normally thrives on and sections of a substrate that would otherwise be off limits to it if the previous host is a lignious psilocybe.
Let us know how it goes.
BTW - i wouldnt say woodlovers are unpredictable. :smile:


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OfflineLynxRufus
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4761657 - 10/06/05 01:31 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Alright, I'm talked into it.  The experiment is on.....  :smile:


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InvisibleWormholeSurfer
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: dumbsnake34]
    #4785022 - 10/10/05 11:33 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dumbsnake34 said:
You are wrong. You don't want to clone more than about 2 generations. In addition, the second generation (after cloning twice) would be the same genetically as the first clone except the cells would have divided more times making the mycelium weaker. Stamets talks about this. If you want to select for bigger fruits you need to have a much bigger population with lots of genetic diversity, and you have to use sexual reproduction (meaning growing from spores) for each generation. Further, that assumes that fruit size is heritable. My suspicion is that it is only minorly heritable because we all know substrate makes a huge difference on fruit size. But this is off topic.





What would be a proper methodology then?

1) Start with Generation 0 spores and a proven optimal substrate produced in a large, homogenous quantity, divide in equal parts for successive generations.

2) Collect first generation's biggest specimens' spores.

3) Use Gen-1 spores to start a 2nd batch, and collect biggest specimens' spores

etc?


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Offlinedumbsnake34
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: WormholeSurfer]
    #4819264 - 10/18/05 03:01 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WormholeSurfer said:
Quote:

dumbsnake34 said:
You are wrong. You don't want to clone more than about 2 generations. In addition, the second generation (after cloning twice) would be the same genetically as the first clone except the cells would have divided more times making the mycelium weaker. Stamets talks about this. If you want to select for bigger fruits you need to have a much bigger population with lots of genetic diversity, and you have to use sexual reproduction (meaning growing from spores) for each generation. Further, that assumes that fruit size is heritable. My suspicion is that it is only minorly heritable because we all know substrate makes a huge difference on fruit size. But this is off topic.





What would be a proper methodology then?

1) Start with Generation 0 spores and a proven optimal substrate produced in a large, homogenous quantity, divide in equal parts for successive generations.

2) Collect first generation's biggest specimens' spores.

3) Use Gen-1 spores to start a 2nd batch, and collect biggest specimens' spores

etc?




That would work better. Think about mushrooms like sexual being because they are. If you have kids, would you want your kids having kids together? Probably not... Fungus are better able to deal with inbreeding, but it is still best avoided. If you want to apply selective pressure, you really need a population that starts with a lot of genetic diversity (i.e. more than one print from more than one source, the more sources the better). GL, with your work though. PM me if you would like.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Increasing potency through species sequencing... [Re: WormholeSurfer]
    #4958344 - 11/20/05 02:10 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

mmm... Not sure how this relates to cloning actually.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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