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OfflineJon
Registered: 06/28/03
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Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics?
    #4710259 - 09/25/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I mean if a psychadelic can permanently or temporarily screw someone up, what way would it be? Has there ever been people that were never able to get out of a trip for the rest of their lives or somthin? I really think I would have to be tortured in hell then put back on my bed before I would go crazy forever on any psychadelic. Any opinions?


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: Jon]
    #4710327 - 09/25/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Usually when things like that happens, the person already has latent mental issues. Like schizophrenia in their family history. Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder can happen, although I'm not sure how it happens in some people but not in others. Maybe some people are very resilient to it while others are susceptible to it?

However, 'normal' people without any latent issues can also get problems, like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder if they have a traumatic experience.


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OfflineJon
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4710380 - 09/25/05 05:14 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

So if someone were to be traumatized over a bad psychadelic experience, would it be relevant to say that the individual should take the same substance once more to learn to overcome it?

ps. Im asking this because there seemed to have been a problem with an individuals 3rd trip. She said she never tried anything so potent and pretty much gave up drugs altogether. She is also still shaken by the whole experience. She took an entire 8th from what I heard, and had some violent reverberating reactions to it, like complained of a de ja vous that was going to break her head or somthin.


Edited by Jon (09/25/05 05:16 PM)


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: Jon]
    #4710386 - 09/25/05 05:15 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

No.

That could fuck the person up even worse.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4710418 - 09/25/05 05:22 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

One very valid point, is the fact that if you take a very high dose (3.5 and up) and have an anxiety attack, you can take the ability to experience that, back to sobre reality with you. Most scientists who messed with this stuff in the 50-60's knew how harmful a bad reactions to hallucinogens can be(anxiety in particulare). Usually even with the worst reactions, the ability for it to cross over into daily life was uncommon. None the less, you become vulnerable to accidental metaprograming. For most people though, metaprograming is thought to be an important factor in the process of psychadelic enlightenment.
Also, if you take enough high doses you should be able to see "it" for a long time after. The only people I know who dont see visuals(for one) on a day to day basis are the ones who never even began to understand the spectrum of experience that can be found within a trip.
Sadly, some people who would have never had such serious problems with anxiety or other mental illness can become so because of hallucinogens. Ever seen or heard of a true "tweak-ball" I dont like this kind of slang, but those people do exist. Also, your average tweakball has problems not yet assigned a name in modern psychology. Like there twitchy or all too liberal nerves and muscles(including the synapses).


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OfflineJon
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: stemmer]
    #4710453 - 09/25/05 05:27 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Jesus I thought only meth can make "tweak-balls"


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: stemmer]
    #4710456 - 09/25/05 05:28 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Taking more would be so very moronic for people who have real problems or those who developed such problems because of hallucinogens. Bi-polar, depressed people have a few more shots with the stuff than those with the real problems I was refering to.
If youve got anxiety and some balls, you can take some drugs and learn how to handle anxiety, but probably not in extreem cases.


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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: stemmer]
    #4710480 - 09/25/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

A ton of acid can really freak people, mainly if they think they are having a typical time on the stuff, so they take it for months/years. Meth is a streight shot though, your right. That shit has a more direct rout to the nervousesystem, like coke.


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Offlinesacred_mushroom
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: stemmer]
    #4710804 - 09/25/05 06:50 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I've had persisting visual hallucinations for about 4 months now ever since my first two experiences with acid. At any time, any place, i can stare at things and make them move, twist, jolt, breathe. Plus, while in a relatively dark room, i ALWAYS have after images and blobs of color floating around my visual field.

Sometimes it gets so intense to the point where i forget what i'm doing and i just zone out into space. During this time i am remembering in perfect clarity a moment or place that i experienced in a trip, and i remember it as if i was still tripping. Thats called a flashback.

It hasn't gotten to the point where it bothers me, in fact i really like it. It keeps me occupied sometimes when theres nothing to do, and it makes me laugh when i find myself thinking really strange and zoning out.

My consumption over the past 10 months has been about 45 grams of Cyans/Cubes and 12 tabs of Acid. I'm takin it easy for now due to my visual/mental disturbances.

Yes. It is very possible. Be careful.


--------------------
Wild mushrooms have the power to increase ones awareness of reality, promote critical thought on the ways of mankind, and encourage people to THINK!! THINK OUT OF THE BOX!! ..These are gifts given directly to you and me from the living soils of our planet, a road map provided by the Earth which may - or may not make possible for one to break the chains from evil powers in our world that have successfully immobilized the souls of masses, given the illusion of freedom, and repressed revolution of the human spirit - The tools provided by the Earth tell us to "WAKE UP! REMOVE YOUR MIND FROM THE DELUSIONAL BOX OF CONSUMERIST PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT, LIVE FREE, DEFY AUTHORITY! AND NEVER ABANDON THE QUEST FOR ULTIMATE TRUTH!"


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: sacred_mushroom]
    #4710910 - 09/25/05 07:29 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

No. There is no such thing as ?mental trauma from psychedelics?. Psychedelics can awaken latent psychological material including unresolved traumas and can even be used to help us heal and resolve our traumas, but they are not the source of trauma itself.

According to Stanislav Grof, one of the most prominent authorities on the use of psychedelics, psychosomatic, ideational and perceptual changes that may show up after the use of psychedelics can be understood as a result of activation and exteriorization of the content of previously unconscious matrices.

These symptoms usually disappear instantly when the underlying material is fully experienced and integrated, via dream work, in a new psychedelic session or some other experimental technique such as Holotropic Breathwork.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4710940 - 09/25/05 07:39 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

To say that is like saying 'seeing horrific things in war didn't cause those WW2 solders to have traumatic experiences, they had latent psychological problems'.

It's complete bullshit. Don't fool yourself into thinking psychedelics are perfectly safe. They're not, they can fuck you up very badly if you're not careful, for DECADES after using them.


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Offlineriby
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: sacred_mushroom]
    #4710948 - 09/25/05 07:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

last monday, i ate five dried, at the peak, the visuals meant shit, they paled in comparison to what my <i>self</I> was going through, i didn't really walk away from that trip the same person. the majority of the trip was spent dwelling on how i act and who i am and how i look, and that(ive been getting down on myself for this in the past week and it well, showed itself as something else), well i felt really alone (alone, in that philosophical thought that 'I'm the only one who exists', im sure every one think about that one, but then to believe it, yeah). so basically it can be classed as a BAD trip, (3 hour peak, mental focusing on what you detest of bout yourself) but i sure learned a lot. the worst part of the trip was that, i understood that, the only way to comedown off this one is to forget it, they were not realizations that i liked about myself, but the were true, and i still carry these realization with me, not to the same intensity. during the trip i was like 'IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT I TOOK, THIS IS WHAT I AM', a kid going nuts in an empty house alone. It wasn't bad because it just showed me both sides to me, and well its my fault i didn't like it. but when your on psilocybin, for me at least the idea is sobriety is a very ignorant one, and that you loose part of the whole picture when coming down. i mean to a scientist, observable changes are reflected as damage. but people change everyday, after i learn something in calculus that pretty interesting (yeah sorry, i DO like math), i don't walk away from that assignment the same person. i find (probably because of my ignorance with the subject) that some mental orders might be evolutionary (heightened), but forced to repress ideas to remain 'sober' and as my shroom friends have kinda defined as well an ignorant state.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: riby]
    #4710983 - 09/25/05 07:55 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

yes you can easily develop post-traumatic stress disorder from having a very intense psychedelic experiance that you were not ready to deal with. My brother suffers from this, and even though he learned to cope with what happened to him, it still affects him to this day.

there is a lot to say on this subject, but i am tired and have a snake using one of my hands as a jungle gym, so can't type fast...


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4711066 - 09/25/05 08:22 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

The officinal definition that psychologist and psychiatrist use to diagnose trauma is that "it is caused by a stressful occurrence that is outside the range of usual human experience, and that would be markedly distressing to almost anyone". This description of trauma is unfortunately very vague and misleading, since it doesn't cover events such as accidents, falls, illnesses, surgeries and even rape that are unconsciously perceived as threatening and traumatizing, yet are also inside the range of usual human experience. (Walking the Tiger, Peter A. Levine).

On the other hand unusual human experiences such as psychedelic ones are not necessarily "traumatic like". If the experience itself is positive I doubt we would call it traumatic only because it was unusual. Even if one has an unpleasant psychedelic experience it can still end-up as a positive one if the user is able to embrace the horror of the trip and ride it out. If one can do that there will be no "trauma like" after effects. If on the other hand the potential bad trip was aborted by tranquilizers or was for some other reason unsuccessfully resolved, then yes one can experience trauma like symptoms. But as said before these are not the symptoms of a new trauma but a result of activation and exteriorization of the content of previously unconscious matrices. These matrices are not necessarily latent psychological problems, as you said it. Decades of research by Grof and others (LSD Psychotherapy, Stanislav Grof) support his.

I am not kidding myself into thinking psychedelics are perfectly safe. They can be very dangerous and can contribute to some serious long-term problems if they are used in an uncontrolled environment, without any detailed knowledge on their nature and effects. On the other hand they can be enormously useful in the treatment of all kinds of disorders such as anxiety, depression, addictions, and even PTSD itself, therefore I encourage their use (if one knows what he or she is doing).


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Offlinesacred_mushroom
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4711570 - 09/25/05 10:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Am i the only one on this forum that has persistent visual distortions? I would think, in a group of people this big who all use hallucinogens and other substances, that there would be a few people with something like what were debating.

Everytime you use psychedelics you open up doors. It is extremely difficult to close those doors. People (like myself) who use psychedelics fairly regularly will understand what i mean when i say "at anytime we could take a peek through the door, only for a few seconds."

Depending on how often you use psychedelics, you may find yourself stepping through the door from time to time and then quickly stepping out back into whatever you were doing. When you start losing control of coming back through that door, thats when you know its time to consider taking a break from all use.


--------------------
Wild mushrooms have the power to increase ones awareness of reality, promote critical thought on the ways of mankind, and encourage people to THINK!! THINK OUT OF THE BOX!! ..These are gifts given directly to you and me from the living soils of our planet, a road map provided by the Earth which may - or may not make possible for one to break the chains from evil powers in our world that have successfully immobilized the souls of masses, given the illusion of freedom, and repressed revolution of the human spirit - The tools provided by the Earth tell us to "WAKE UP! REMOVE YOUR MIND FROM THE DELUSIONAL BOX OF CONSUMERIST PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT, LIVE FREE, DEFY AUTHORITY! AND NEVER ABANDON THE QUEST FOR ULTIMATE TRUTH!"


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: sacred_mushroom]
    #4711594 - 09/25/05 10:57 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

yes, I too have HPPD, but I don't let it bother me...

The key to not being traumatized by tripping, or any event for that matter, is being able to turn something negative into something positive. Most psychedelic trauma comes from lack of integration of the experiance, or lack of resolution. Sometimes you just have to take another trip to re-experiance the trauma and get closure. Other times staying away from all drugs is the best thing to do.

Whatever you do, and however you feel, tripping is always a gamble. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you lose big, but more often than not you just break even...


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: dr0mni]
    #4711739 - 09/25/05 11:23 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

you could become possessed by a spirt. You could have your body taken. You could have another soul enter your body. you could leave your body and not know how to get back. you could have your soul damaged or split. you could get trapped in another world. many many things can happen in the second attention and death is far from the worst. be careful.


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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #4711863 - 09/25/05 11:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry if ive bursted anyone's bubble, but they can be dangerous for some people, specificaly people who know why they take mushrooms.
Those who are most receptive are most vulneable to its effects, most of those people already have some of the less reactive disorders or even schyzophrenia to a more latent degree. It is when they become real problems, for god sake read up before you tell people that there aint no problem unless your crazy. Thats very funny to me and Im shure to many others. The highest you can get on shrooms is crazy and schyzotypal, dont put down the schizos or anyone else. If you think you cant be harmed by it, then your more ignorant and crazier than those who are infact harmed by it.


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Offlineevolmachine
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: stemmer]
    #4712726 - 09/26/05 03:04 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I think it just depends on the person. I have two friends that used to deal acid, and anytime they got a new batch they personally tested it together to make sure it was good before selling it. This went on for almost a year, sometimes tripping on acid 3 or 4 times a week. Neither one of them has any negative side effects, and both of them are actually more intelligent people because of it. It's like it opened their brains to more experiences and ideas, and both of them read more now to satisfy that almost ravenous hunger for more knowledge. They've turned to shrooms now mostly because its easier on the body and also LSD is like impossible to get here.

On the other hand, I also had a friend in highschool that used acid about as much as these two guys, and he is totally fucked up now. He spent several months in a rehab center and a few more in a mental health clinic. Most likely this is due to his personal problems with his parents and general bad mental health... he was never really there to begin with. It just depends on the person.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Is it really possible to have mental trauma from psychadelics? [Re: Jon]
    #4713315 - 09/26/05 11:25 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

People can get all sorts of mental derangements resulting from trips if the trip is the stressor that pushes them over the edge they perhaps never knew they already were at.

Most of the time it is anxiety related though.

I am the third person chiming in that has HPPD. I've been tripping nonstop for 2 years now. I am a shaman, so I went into the psychedelic experience expecting permanent change. And I got this. But this is a far cry from 99/100 users who would freak out bigtime and be harmed if something in them changed.

The person I believe to have the "worst" kind of HPPD on these forums is LCid. With him the walls basically undulate AND pattern nonstop as if he's on a blotter, so he told me a long time ago. For years.

Quote:

I really think I would have to be tortured in hell then put back on my bed before I would go crazy forever on any psychadelic.




I'm sorry, that's naive. People who go "crazy" don't go "crazy". The "crazy" part is our inability to m,ake sense of their actions. What they are is away from normalcy. And thats alot closer to home. Example:

People who jump off buildings on LSD most often do not think "they can fly". That's just what the newspapers say.

Instead, they simply are having a bad trip in which they feel so excruciatingly bad at that moment and about their entire life, so utterly desperate that they choose death over facing the nightmare of their existance any longer.


Now that is a bit more understandable than people thinking they grew wings, no?

With most HPPD-ers you can say that on one come-down the trip simply did not wear off.

Some people get depressions or traumatize themselves.

Quote:

I really think I would have to be tortured in hell then put back on my bed before I would go crazy forever on any psychadelic.




And what makes you think there's no Hell awaiting between your ears? If a plastic toy gun can scare you into a cardiac arrest, why can't LSD?

People who go south generally do not do this all at once but rather in a process of months. Going mad tends to take a good part of a year or several years. Most cases of "madness" however are in reality people struggling with such extreme unhappiness that they cannot function normally, and we take that oddness and call it "crazy".

Most people who trip will at one time or regularly deal with uniquely horrible trips. One in four human beings will in his lifetime gho through a episode that would warrent commitment to a psychiatric hospital, but usually get by or are coached by friends.

Psychological problems are both far away and very close at the same time. Imagine your friends whom you know and trust suddenly grab you, pin you to the ground, pry your mouth open and start shorting out your tooth fillings with a piece of tin foil whilst kicking you in the nuts for an hour or so.
Bad trips can be like that.


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