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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
250,000 bullets per insurgent
    #4708032 - 09/25/05 03:03 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Do americans believe in AIMING before firing?

US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed

By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 25 September 2005

US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."

Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about ?5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article314944.ece


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708061 - 09/25/05 03:13 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

that sounds about right... not every round is used to shoot someone... most of the rounds are shot by squads laying down suppressive fire so people can move while under attack


--------------------
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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4708097 - 09/25/05 03:19 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

most of the rounds are shot by squads laying down suppressive fire so people can move while under attack

Any evidence this is the case in Iraq?


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708103 - 09/25/05 03:20 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

The topic?


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708115 - 09/25/05 03:24 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

i'm sure there's evidence if you go looking for it... it's standard procedure, one guy moves while the rest of his squad fires full auto at the enemy firing positions... this causes the enemy to take cover, giving the man time to move without being harassed by enemy fire... when the man gets to his destination, he begins supressive fire while one by one the other team members moves to where he is...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708139 - 09/25/05 03:29 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

And thats WAY down from Vietnam.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4708519 - 09/25/05 05:31 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

i'm sure there's evidence if you go looking for it... it's standard procedure, one guy moves while the rest of his squad fires full auto at the enemy firing positions... this causes the enemy to take cover, giving the man time to move without being harassed by enemy fire... when the man gets to his destination, he begins supressive fire while one by one the other team members moves to where he is...

Yeah but do you think that's relevant to Iraq? My impression was the bulk of the action was taking place in heavily populated cities where loosing off hundreds of thousands of rounds would cause absolute carnage.

Also, do the insurgents do much fighting with small arms fire from entrenched positions where such covering fire would be neccessary? I thought snipers and roadside bombs was their preferred strategy.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708530 - 09/25/05 05:37 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

most of the firefights seem to happen on the roads between towns... i don't know what they do in dense urban situations... i imagine more of the same, and damn the civilians...


--------------------
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we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708533 - 09/25/05 05:39 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

And thats WAY down from Vietnam.

Got a source for that magic?


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708538 - 09/25/05 05:40 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Thats about how it works. The M16 has a cyclic rate of 800 rnds/min with an average rate of 10-12 rnd/min. 10 men shooting for one minute bangs away 120 rounds. The M240G is belt fed ad has a cyclic rate of 650-950rpm. A four man lance in the Marines would have three M16's and a M240. Usually four lances (fireteams) are put into one platoon under the command of a 1st lieu. If his platoon was moving and was recieving fire, that would be 12 men shooting 244 rounds per minute (total) and 3 men shooting 2850 rounds per minute from the M240G. Thats a lot of ammo. Almost three thousand rounds right there. Figure that the .50BMG on top of Humvees is considered a small arm and they REALLY pound through the ammo, thatsnot hard to see.

This really isn't unusual and, of course, you don't really have a point but t ouse some moronic news source to make the US look bad. It's not like we are losing the war. It's not like we are short on bullets. We kicked ass and plowed through Iraq as fast as we could move. Same with Afghanistan. Hell, when we kick you out of our country we probably wasted a lot of ammo, but you see who's flag we fly now.

WhileI've got your attetion, why did you abandon our gun control thread ?


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708543 - 09/25/05 05:44 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

you're a marine?


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708545 - 09/25/05 05:44 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Yea, somewhere. I recall it was a few million rounds per confirmed kill. It's hard to know justh ow many people are killed. And sometimes a few people can kill one guy, not that it matters here.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4708546 - 09/25/05 05:45 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Why do ya ask if I'm a Marine? I just happen to know alot about them. The info I just posted came from the Guidebook for Marines, btw.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: Alex213]
    #4708549 - 09/25/05 05:46 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

that article reeks of bullshit.  I've had no problem purchasing 5.56 or 7.62mm rounds what so ever from US manufactures, so I'd assume hat the gov't isn't having much problem either.  Also, the article itself just assumes how many people were killed and how many rounds were fired.  The US does train with live ammo, ya know :smile:


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708552 - 09/25/05 05:49 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

you sounded like you knew something there...

the reason i asked is that you have to be a pretty special character just to get through marine training... just wanted to know if you were that kind of character...


--------------------
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we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4708556 - 09/25/05 05:50 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't really want to go to war now a days.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708562 - 09/25/05 05:54 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

nobody does... thats why marines are special... they do it even though they don't want to...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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OfflineMagicalMystery
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4708563 - 09/25/05 05:55 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Marines definatly want to go to war :smile:


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708566 - 09/25/05 05:57 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

This really isn't unusual

In densely populated civilian areas?

not like we are losing the war.

To be honest, that's exactly what it looks like.

No question the US military can topple weak third world governments but they appear ill-equipped to handle guerilla warfare. Imagine if the Iraqi insurgents were being armed the same way the US armed the fundamentalist lunatics in Afghanistan during the 80's.

I wouldn't brag on attacking third world places like Afghanistan and Iraq too much - who'se next? The Hare Krishnas?

WhileI've got your attetion, why did you abandon our gun control thread ?

Don't recall that one magic - must've gone under my radar.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: 250,000 bullets per insurgent [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4708574 - 09/25/05 06:00 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Marines definatly want to go to war

I think a lot of them will be having second thoughts now.


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