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Invisiblemantis
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Deism
    #4706808 - 09/24/05 09:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I bet there are a lot of people here who could consider themselves Deists.
Quote:

Deism is defined by the view that reason, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God. Deists reject organized religion and promote reason as the essential element in making moral decisions. This "rational" basis was usually founded upon the cosmological argument (first cause argument), the teleological argument (argument from design), and other aspects of what was called natural religion. Deism has become identified with the classical belief that God created but does not intervene in the world, though this is not a necessary component of deism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

A lot of our founding fathers and some of the greatest thinkers of history followed this. Deism grew in popularity around the scientific revolution. People began to recognize our ability to help ourselves and change the world. The idea that our fate was in Gods hands was rejected by many.

It sums up my beliefs perfectly. I still pray, but merely to thank God for creating such an intricate and amazing world.
Deism
You may choose only one
sums up my beliefs
makes some valid points
has a lot of problems
conflicts with my beliefs
i'm not sure


Votes accepted from (09/24/05 09:45 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4706820 - 09/24/05 09:52 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My religious beliefs have gone something like this: Judaism -> Deism -> Agnosticism -> Eastern Religions (Hindu, Zen, Buddhism, Taoism)


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Deism [Re: dblaney]
    #4706842 - 09/24/05 09:58 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Interesteing, here's my flowchart of religiosity:

Catholic -> non-denominational Christian -> Atheist -> Agnostic -> Deist

I still use elements of Christianity, but my Deist mindset has been here for quite some time. (in fact, I only recently learned that it's a well-known belief system)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4706871 - 09/24/05 10:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

No way. God is completely irrational in my opinion, and I doubt I'd ever believe in higher powers in any form without evidence.

The teleological argument is complete bullshit. I'll use Wikipedia as you did, as it's much more concise than putting it in my own words:
Quote:

Although there are variations, the basic argument goes something like this:

1. X is too complex to have occurred randomly or naturally.
2. Therefore, X must have been created by an intelligent being.
3. God is that intelligent being.
4. God exists.




Of course, it ignores the fact that God is too complex to occur randomly or naturally, since he in fact creates such complex phenonema, so the teleological argument is really just faith lacking evidence bound up in 4 steps.

The cosmological argument is also bullshit, for the same reasoning:
Quote:

Framed as a formal proof, the first cause argument can be stated as follows:

1. Everything has a cause.
2. Nothing can cause itself.
3. Everything is caused by another thing.
4. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
5. There must be a first cause.
6. God was the first cause.




All Deism is based on the assumption that God must be radically incomprehensible, yet he is also the reason for everything. We exclude him from the argument itself, such as the cosmological argument (which will fail with any logical atheist) because we say everything must have a cause except for God. Likewise, the teleological argument says everything complex must be created except for God, who is undoubtedly the most complex of all. This is mindless faith in its purist form.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Deism [Re: Ravus]
    #4706963 - 09/24/05 10:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I'm no Philosophy major so I'm not going to argue with you in that sense. I speak of God in a very broad sense. God is existence.

"I think, therefore I am" I'm asking a question, so I must exist
I extend this mindset into my spiritual beliefs. The universe exists, so it had to get here somehow (a higher power).

No logical proofs are going to change my beliefs, I've considered the atheist perspective. They are just as clueless as the rest of us-- they just won't admit it 9 times out of 10.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707002 - 09/24/05 10:40 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

God is extra; he is not evident, and therefore he requires evidence. With the lack of evidence, atheism will flood in.

Though in the deepest parts of my heart and soul, I truely believe there is no God, nor are there any mystical forces or higher powers at work. Everything is science, even if science hasn't yet found the theories to explain some things.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707021 - 09/24/05 10:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ravus is correct about the inadequacy of the cosmological and teleological arguments. These are the same arguments put forth today by the Intelligent Design crowd. They made more sense in the time of the founding fathers, when they didn't have these concepts like evolution or the big bang or string theory. I do believe in a higher power, but my concept of this power more closely resembles the idea of the Tao than of any sentient being.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Deism [Re: Silversoul]
    #4707036 - 09/24/05 10:49 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My belief in GOD is nuts. I've actually considered seeking help for it.


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Deism [Re: Ravus]
    #4707057 - 09/24/05 10:55 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think this planet is damn good evidence. That's doesn't cut it for you. Your beliefs are absolutely logical and scientific. I can respect that although I don't agree with it.

I agree that science can explain anything in the physical world, but it has its limits. That's where faith comes into play.

It's not "mindless faith" as I've put considerable thought into it. I appreciate the condescension though.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707071 - 09/24/05 10:59 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I said, "Likewise, the teleological argument says everything complex must be created except for God, who is undoubtedly the most complex of all. This is mindless faith in its purist form." The teleological and cosmological arguments are, in my opinion, mindless faith; maybe you put more thought into the issue of God than these arguments, in which case it's a possible that you came to the conclusion of God not by unquestioning faith and exceptions to the rule so as to put God in the cracks, but by actual reasoning. Alas, only you know, unless you want to share.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinesublime40oz
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707075 - 09/24/05 11:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I toggle b/t atheisim and thinking there must be something but I don't want to call it "god." I am just another confused soul enjoying his life, I prefer not to worry about it, I'll find out someday. Or never assuming there is nothing more to all this. What is the scientific explanation of ghosts, b/c my old house was haunted, this I am sure of.


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Beyond the gray sky


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707096 - 09/24/05 11:05 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If you call yourself a deist, go invest yourself in Scientology: Both are equally ludicrous.

There's a reason fairy tales are told to children: The story is great, and the kids don't stop mom 3 pages in and call bullshit.


Enjoy, tho.


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Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineWeAreAllOne
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Re: Deism [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4707122 - 09/24/05 11:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I cannot even begin to put into words how incredibly ridiculous it is

that we are anything at all.  Every time I think about how I don't

believe in a higher being, I think back to the point of the very first

existence of anything.  How can something come of nothing? Why is

there anything at all?


So strange to be anything at all.

:confused:


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Deism [Re: GnuBobo]
    #4707134 - 09/24/05 11:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If you call yourself a deist, go invest yourself in Scientology: Both are equally ludicrous.



A belief in God is as ludicrous as considering L. Ron Hubbard a prophet?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707141 - 09/24/05 11:13 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mantis said:
A belief in God is as ludicrous as considering L. Ron Hubbard a prophet?



Belief in God isn't in and of itself ludicrous(depending on how one defines God), but to justify that belief based on such shaky arguments is ludicrous.


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OfflineWeAreAllOne
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707145 - 09/24/05 11:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.


:grin: :thumbup:


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Deism [Re: Ravus]
    #4707191 - 09/24/05 11:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

As an atheist, you are very good at picking apart other people's arguments. Do you have any suggestions of your own? How do you think the modern world came to be?


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OfflineWeAreAllOne
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707211 - 09/24/05 11:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Relax, people.

We're here. 

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

Who cares how we got here?

:mushroom2:


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Invisiblemantis
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Re: Deism [Re: WeAreAllOne]
    #4707266 - 09/24/05 11:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I didn't want this to turn into a philosophy thread because I despise the ambiguity of it. This Christian kid I work with was trying to tell me how I should believe in heaven/hell, go to church and pray. I told him I'm focusing on THIS life. I believe my purpose on this planet is to enjoy myself, get a better understanding of the world and hopefully make an impact on it (no matter how insignificant).

Alas, the S&P brigade sniffed it out like a pack of bloodhounds.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Deism [Re: mantis]
    #4707293 - 09/24/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mantis said:
How do you think the modern world came to be?



The laws of physics as we know them today explain that pretty much perfectly without any "creator" required in the explanation.


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