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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4696727 - 09/22/05 08:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If they managed to keep it a secret, we wouldn't know about it.

They only successfully had a widespread disinformation campaign.


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OnlineAsanteA
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4696758 - 09/22/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Serious question: If physicists used the Atoms are tiny Boddhisatvas theory, do you believe the atomic bombs the US dropped on Japan would have worked?





The intent of the Boddhisatva-thing is to say that you can have a completely different approach as to theory and still arrive at the same outcome (mass murder in one of the worst warcrimes to date, in this case)

The only difference between a delusional system and scientific assumptions is that the delusions are less consistant and predictive. If they are more so, the delusional system becomes the new science.
Flat Earth/Globe.

Quote:

You're arguing that somehow the Atomic Theory is totally wrong, but this makes as much sense as saying that the Condensed Water Rain Theory is totally wrong and rain really is the result of sweaty albatrosses, we just don't know it.




I'm saying we must seriously consider that both the atomic and condensed water theories are wrong and that it is all caused by the sweaty armpits of albatrosses.
Because the minute you truly believe you have found the Ultimate Truth the scientist within you dies and you stop thinking.

Its not about Boddhisatvas or sweaty albatross armpits. It's about taking the stance that all we think we know may be wrong.
To truly live with the 1% chance that we are fully wrong is one of the most precious things in a person's personal growth or spirituality.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Shroomism]
    #4696759 - 09/22/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nice try. Project Bluebook was a debunking campaign by the US government to discredit contactees and deny the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

Try this one - http://www.ufoalert.com/


Here's the thing...

When you asked me for sources to support my statement that most sightings are explained as natural or human-made phenomena or hoaxes, I provided a link to ~13,000 documented cases of which 6% remain unexplained.

When I asked you for sources to "thousands and thousands of unsolved and unexplained observations", you give me a link to a some guy's site where the stated purpose right on the front page is:

"This web site is an attempt to document UFO sightings around the world."


They make no effort to analyze any of these sightings. They only catalog them. Until a sighting is analyzed, it is not "unsolved and unexplained". It's just a sighting that could be anything.

So I'll ask yet again for a source of "thousands and thousands of unsolved and unexplained observations".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/22/05 09:02 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Shroomism]
    #4696766 - 09/22/05 08:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If they managed to keep it a secret, we wouldn't know about it.

And what about every other government on Earth, many of which hate the US and would like nothing better than to 'expose' our lies about alien visitation?

Or do you believe that aliens only crash in the US?

They only successfully had a widespread disinformation campaign.

Sources please?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Shroomism]
    #4696803 - 09/22/05 08:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

UFO would be like when I see that spacecraft, but don't communicate with them.. so they are unidentified. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the flight patterns of their ships, and birds, planes, balloons, other man-made things, and natural phenomena does not move like that.

Are you deliberately ignoring my detailing of an object that "does not move like that" in New Mexico?

It turned out to be reflections of a distant town bouncing of the refractive index change (the same thing that causes shimmering in the distance over a hot roadway) in a standing thermocline in the atmosphere as the air currents shifted rapidly in mountain turbulence. How many other sightings of objects that "do not move like that" can, and have been, explained by researchers when they looked closely? Project Blue Book contains almost 13,000 explained sightings of objects that "do not move like that".

And by the way, you have yet to refute PBB. All you've provided is a link to some guy's web site cataloging a bunch of unresearched sightings taken on faith to be aliens.

I now invoke Icelander's Three-request Rule.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/24/05 03:26 AM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Asante]
    #4696878 - 09/22/05 09:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The intent of the Boddhisatva-thing is to say that you can have a completely different approach as to theory and still arrive at the same outcome

Once again, you fail to answer a simple question. I'll try again:

Serious question: If physicists used the Atoms are tiny Boddhisatvas theory, do you believe the atomic bombs the US dropped on Japan would have worked?

I'm saying we must seriously consider that both the atomic and condensed water theories are wrong and that it is all caused by the sweaty armpits of albatrosses.

Given the giant mounds of evidence supporting the Atomic Theory and Condensed Water Theory, and the small (read: zero) amount of evidence supporting the Armpit Theory, it's all but useless to consider the latter.

Would you, as you say, "seriously consider" that all the money in your bank account actually belongs to me? If not, you are being dishonest in your assertion that we should "seriously consider" the Armpit Theory of where rain comes from. If you do, then please send me the money.

It's about taking the stance that all we think we know may be wrong.

Despite what you've been lead to believe, this is a scientific truism.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4696932 - 09/22/05 09:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is 'a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.' No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth."

This is where science is separated from a believe.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Annom]
    #4697292 - 09/22/05 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

when scientists talk about [a theory] they are not expressing reservations about its truth

Neither are they expressing certainty about its truth.

They are expressing only a reasonable explanation of the available observations and experimental results that is subject to revision when/if new evidence becomes available.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4698001 - 09/23/05 12:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Project Blue Book investigated 12,618 UFO sightings and 701 of those sightings remained unidentified. Many UFO researchers feel that the investigations of the UFO sightings were unprofessional and unscientific. The program used poor research methods and researchers were too eager to label a mysterious sighting as "identified" phenomena. Individual researchers and UFO organisations believe that members of Project Blue Book were pressured to "identify" UFO sightings to calm the public hysteria about UFOs. This theory has been supported by the recent release of CIA documents pertaining to UFOs. They also suggest that any report that was initially perceived as unexplainable or would cause public concern was never included in Project Blue Book. They allege that these reports were passed on to a higher authority that never reported the results to the public. Project Blue Book, it seems, was just a low level collection and disinformation program created under Project Sign (of December 1947) which evolved into Project Grudge (of December 1948) to cover up the true investigation into the alien presence on Earth." From "United States Air Force Project Blue Book", Above Top Secret Website





http://www.ufoevidence.org/

http://www.nicap.org/hallstate.htm

http://www.rense.com/general52/mexv.htm

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/contentid-9.html

http://www.larryhatch.net/

http://www.caus.org/home.shtml

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1477.htm

http://www.unexplainedresearch.com/in_the_news/UFO_Mondovi.html

http://www.freedomofinfo.org/


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Shroomism]
    #4698385 - 09/23/05 01:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Many UFO researchers feel that the investigations of the UFO sightings were unprofessional and unscientific.

Alright, let's look at an example from book 12:

Begin Report
Description

One unidentified object was reported by two USAF officers stationed with the Moby Dick balloon launching detachment, Tillamook, Oregon. This object was seen at 1010 PST 9 June 1953. The object was viewed through a theodolite and appeared half-moon in shape and white in color. It appeared to hover and no manner of propulsion was observed. No manner of disappearance was reported.

Discussion

During such a long period of observation, any conventional object known to be on this earth would, under existing conditions, have moved more than this particular object did. The winds at 30,000 feet were from 120 deg at 25 knots. Project Blue Book's astronomer was contacted and they stated that this sighting was undoubtedly the planet Venus which, under ideal conditions, can be seen during the daylight hours.

Conclusion

Was astronomical (Venus).

End Report

I saw Venus in the early afternoon after lunch in broad daylight a few days ago, and it's funny I happened upon this particular Blue Book explanation by chance. Two of the five people I was with at the time thought Venus was a UFO until I explained what it was and that due to Venus' orbit being inside that of the Earth, Venus actually exhibits phases just like the moon, and just like reported in the UFO incident analyzed above. The outer planets don't.

Now, the beef of the issue.

What part of that report was "unprofessional and unscientific"?

Project Blue Book were pressured to "identify" UFO sightings to calm the public hysteria about UFOs. This theory has been supported by the recent release of CIA documents

Sources please? I'd like to read those CIA documents for myself.

They also suggest that any report that was initially perceived as unexplainable or would cause public concern was never included in Project Blue Book.

Alright, how about this one also from book 12:

Begin Report
Description

At 2310 EST on 10 June 1953 and AFROTC cadet at Wayne University observed one large bright object that was white or light yellow in color, round in shape and larger than a star. This object moved from a high westerly position in a falling arc toward the north and then leveled off and proceeded at high rate of speed to the north in a straight line. This object made these maneuvers in a period of 60 seconds and disappeared over the northern horizon. The object, though bright, cast no beam nor left any trail or exhaust. No sound was noticed.

Discussion

Movements of this object and length of observation eliminate the possibility that it was of astronomical origin. Checks with airports in the vicinity revealed that there was one aircraft in the area. This was DC-4 enroute to Chicago on a heading of 270 deg and was probably not in the area. A check was made with the weather bureau to determine whether or not they had a balloon in the area. A balloon was released at 0300Z, but it could not have caused the sighting since it burst before 0410Z (time of sighting).

Conclusion

Unsolved

End Report

As you can see, contrary to the UFO proponents you are quoting, PBB certainly DID state that something was unexplainable when it in fact was unexplainable. Now, I have to wonder, who are the ones making up misinformation, PBB or the UFO proponents you are quoting?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (09/23/05 02:09 AM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Diploid]
    #4698497 - 09/23/05 01:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've provided one explained, one unexplained, and just for good measure, here's a hoax.

From book 12:

Begin Report
Description

On the night of 7 July 1953, three observers from Atlanta were driving on Highway 78 near Mapleton, Georgia, when they encountered a "flying saucer" in the middle of the road. There were three small animals near this red colored "saucer". As the observers bore down on this object, two of the animals entered the "saucer" and escaped. As the "saucer" rose and disappeared at a 45 degree angle, it turned a light blue in color. Observers' car struck the third animal and knocked him unconscious. After getting out of the car and finding this animal which was approximately 21 inches in length, had long ears, no hair, and no tail, observers stayed at the scene and several other automobiles stopped. The animal died in about 30 minutes and was taken to one of the Atlanta newspapers. A reporter for the newspaper called the FBI, who in turn called the OSI to investigate the incident.

Discussion

This animal was first examined by a local veterinarian who stated that he had never seen such an animal before. Later the animal was taken to Emory University where an Emory authority identified it as a member of the monkey family and not an "animal from space". A member of the State Crime Laboratory and another member of the Emory University staff identified the animal as a monkey which had been shaved and from which the tail had been removed. Observers confirmed that the whole story was a hoax resulting from a $10.00 bet with a friend that he (observer) could not get his picture in the paper. Observer was fined $40.00 for obstructing the highway and was released at that time.

Conclusion

Other - Hoax.

Note: This is one of many similar reports received by Project Blue Book.

End Report


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: Swami]
    #4704250 - 09/24/05 08:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

the thing that i find particularly telling about UFO reports is the absence of anything unexpected. All of the supposed alien encounters that have been described all conform to a formula present in many science fiction stories, eg, saucer shaped craft, beings that look and act similarly to humans, but different in small matters such as the shape of their heads or bodies, lights flying in formation, all things that science fiction stories have told us to expect...

i've never heard someone claim to have seen a spaceship that looks exactly like a dog, for example, or a ship made out of cheese... these things would seem to bizarre to an observer, who upon seeing a giant flying snack machine would assume he is hallucinating, but a person who hallucinates a triangular pattern of lights is convinced he has seen an extraterrestrial...

modes of communication reported to have been experienced are also quite predictable, invariably involving mental telepathy or human speech... nobody ever claimed that an alien communicated by changing eye colors, or through scent communication, because in order to communicate with an alien one must understand the alien... i have yet to hear of an alien encounter where the person did not understand in some way the communications being presented by the aliens...

an encounter with a bona fide alien would more resemble an encounter with a fish, wherein there is no understanding of the thoughts, motivations, or purposes of the fish and where no communication is possible because we don't know how the fish communicates and the fish likewise does not know how to talk to us... that fish could be telling me his life story, but i would not even percieve that the fish was attempting communication at all...

now fish share this planet with us, have common ancestors with us, as do birds, rats, and snakes, yet we can communicate with none of them...

a being that does not share the same ancestry or home planet would have even less chance of communicating with us than we have of communicating with squirrels...


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Best UFO Evidence [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #4706383 - 09/24/05 07:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

modes of communication reported to have been experienced are also quite predictable, invariably involving mental telepathy or human speech

You silly, they use their Universal Translator. Sheesh, don't you know anything?  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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