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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: badchad]
    #4695262 - 09/22/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

badchad writes:

Quote:

There are many situations where motive is quite important.




Name one.

It doesn't matter why one does good deeds. What matters is they get done. No rational person would argue that a passerby in a position to stop a rape from occurring (say a healthy young male carrying a firearm) should be criticized for driving off the rapist because his motive for doing so was he hoped to arrange a dinner date with her, for example. What difference does it make to either the woman, the rapist, or society if his motive was in essence nothing more than an extremely effective pickup ploy rather than an exhibition of Christian brotherly love?




Phred


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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4695348 - 09/22/05 03:29 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
badchad writes:

Quote:

There are many situations where motive is quite important.




Name one.




A police investigation :wink:


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: daimyo]
    #4695355 - 09/22/05 03:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Or Hansel and Gretel being fed candy, just so the witch can eat them.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,200
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4695364 - 09/22/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Easy.

I shoot someone in the head and kill them. Now doesn't it make a difference if:

A. Said person is attacking me. OR
B. I feel like killing someone for the heck of it.

One could conceivably think of many scenarios where the motivation/intent of performing an act changes the situation from "right" to "wrong".


Now take the Walmart scenario. Regardless of political stance and/or affiliation the situation is viewed differently depending upon whether you see walmart as:

A. An evil corporate giant exploiting people in crisis OR
B. A heartwarming institution reaching out to other's.

I obviously have little effect in changing most people's opinion. It really was not my intent to do so (as that would be futile). All I meant to point out was that motivation does in fact play a role.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: badchad]
    #4695369 - 09/22/05 03:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't categorize giving things away as exploiting people


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: badchad]
    #4695418 - 09/22/05 03:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

badchad writes:

Quote:

Easy.

I shoot someone in the head and kill them. Now doesn't it make a difference if:

A. Said person is attacking me. OR
B. I feel like killing someone for the heck of it.




Oh please. What changes the legal (and moral) status of your act is not your motivation, but the other person's actions. In case A, the guy is attacking you. In case B, he isn't.

Quote:

One could conceivably think of many scenarios where the motivation/intent of performing an act changes the situation from "right" to "wrong".




Then you should have no difficulty coming up with an actual example of such a scenario. Your first attempt doesn't qualify.

Quote:

All I meant to point out was that motivation does in fact play a role.




And all I pointed out was the role motive plays is irrelevant to the rightness or the wrongness of the action under discussion.




Phred


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,200
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4695491 - 09/22/05 04:09 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

LOL, something would have to make you pull the trigger. I would define the driving force to do so as a motivation. Yes, the other persons actions dictate what I do, however it is still an internal motivation.

If another person decides to become a priest to either:
A. molest young boys OR to:
B. spread brotherly christian love.

Does the motivation matter?

In my opinion (regardless of what the true reason is/was) Walmarts actions are either justifiable or immoral based upon the corporations motivations (whatever they may be).

In my personal opinion there is a difference between a corporation saying:

A. "I genuinely want to help people" OR
B. "no other stores have products right now, we could make a killing selling stuff AND improve our image to increase sales".

In my humble opinion, option B is not the moral reason to send aid to katrina victims.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: badchad]
    #4695683 - 09/22/05 04:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

badchad writes:

Quote:

LOL, something would have to make you pull the trigger. I would define the driving force to do so as a motivation. Yes, the other persons actions dictate what I do, however it is still an internal motivation.




I can't explain it any more clearly than I have already. The rightness or wrongness of your killing someone attacking you has nothing to do with anything other than his actions. If he's attacking you, your shooting him is right. If he's sitting in a chair minding his own business, shooting him is wrong.

Quote:

If another person decides to become a priest to either:
A. molest young boys OR to:
B. spread brotherly christian love.

Does the motivation matter?




Oh brother. This is an even MORE ludicrous attempt. Molesting little boys is an ACTION. If someone molests little boys, that someone is performing a bad action, regardless of whether he molests them because he enjoys it, because he believes it will save their souls, or because he believes they are incarnations of demons and deserve to be punished.

Do you honestly not grasp the concept under discussion here?

Quote:

In my personal opinion there is a difference between a corporation saying:

A. "I genuinely want to help people" OR
B. "no other stores have products right now, we could make a killing selling stuff AND improve our image to increase sales".

In my humble opinion, option B is not the moral reason to send aid to katrina victims.




So then if the only reason they help the victims is to gain some benefit for themselves, you are saying the victims should not be helped? It must be totally a one-way transaction or it mustn't be carried out?

I rest my case.




Phred


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OfflineVex
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4695719 - 09/22/05 05:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

wait a second...you agree with this article so now you think it was femas fault for not evacuating everyone? i thought that was ray nagins fault! Ah but now it's clintons fault they didn't have a plan so now it qualifys as a big government failure under democratic leadership, right?

the right never ceases to amaze me with their petty finger pointing and delusional reasoning. Am i suprised that people from the right are trying to blame the katrina situation on clinton who was in office like 6 years ago? no..i guess it was just a matter of time for the right to spin everything around and put it on clinton.

Such hypocrisy....when it's on bush..it's a local and state failure and bush and fema had nothing to do with it. But if the blame can be traced to clinton then it's a massive federal failure on femas part because they were supposed to figure out a way to evacuate people.  :rolleyes: shees make up your minds already.


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OfflineDeepDish
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 86
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4695833 - 09/22/05 05:33 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Motivations are usually based around previous action, that is the whole point of a "motive". Of course it matters why people do good deeds, especially if they are doing them to hide something about themselves. If a serial killer perfoms community service events in order to try and hide fact that he kills little children in his basement, would you not agree that his motive for performing the good deeds is suspect.

I guess there are two ways to look at the situation. The first would be to seperate the actions and treat them as two independant events. In one he is doing something good, in the other something bad. Motivation is simply a characteristic that links the two actions, and it certainly is possible for someone to have a bad motive for performing a percieved good deed.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Vex]
    #4696140 - 09/22/05 06:38 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wait a second...you agree with this article so now you think it was femas fault for not evacuating everyone?




Where on earth do you get that from? I posted that article to show the difference between the corporate world (competent) and the government world (incompetent). This doesn't mean I think Nagin and Blanco weren't at fault to a greater degree than FEMA -- clearly they were.

Quote:

Am i suprised that people from the right are trying to blame the katrina situation on clinton who was in office like 6 years ago? no..i guess it was just a matter of time for the right to spin everything around and put it on clinton.




LOL! Oh the irony. I guess it escaped your attention that it was the Dems who started immediately bashing Bush for not doing more. It wasn't till a few days later that not-Dems started linking to the ignored New Orleans evacuation plans, the unused New Orleans and Louisianna buses, the diversion of funds from flood protection projects into unknown Democratic pockets, the lackadaisical "actions" of the Clinton administration, etc. If the Angry Left had shown even a modicum of civility and common sense rather than gleefully seizing on a natural tragedy as just another occasion to "get Bush", there would have been a whole hell of a lot less finger-pointing.

When Clinton makes (in defiance of all tradition for the comportment of ex-Presidents) widley-publicized claims that...

Quote:

"I think we did a good job of disaster management," he said on ABC's "This Week." While criticizing the Bush administration for leaving poor people stranded in New Orleans, he said that he and his FEMA director, James Lee Witt, had been especially sensitive to the needs of poor people because of their own backgrounds.




... he leaves himself open for rebuttal. It was Clinton who opened the door.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: DeepDish]
    #4696159 - 09/22/05 06:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

DeepDish writes:

Quote:

If a serial killer perfoms community service events in order to try and hide fact that he kills little children in his basement, would you not agree that his motive for performing the good deeds is suspect.




So it would be better if he weren't to do those good deeds?

Quote:

Motivation is simply a characteristic that links the two actions, and it certainly is possible for someone to have a bad motive for performing a percieved good deed.




Of course it is possible. That doesn't change the fact that a good deed which otherwise would not be done has been done. I ask again -- is it better to not do the good deed at all?




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4696740 - 09/22/05 08:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Electricity is not, to my knowledge, a right. Can't pay your bill????? Live in the dark. And freeze. And starve. Or beg. What?? What's demeaning??? Well, the acknowledgement of an inability to care for oneself should come with some sense of shame. After all, you have really come up short in this society if you can't even feed, clothe and house yourself. That is almost impossible to achieve. Unless you're one of the retards who had a baby at 16 and/or married at 17 and/or droppped out of high school. You can make your own way here. Don't waste your life envying Bill Gates. Envy the guy who owns the mechanic shop down the street or the successful contractor , or the diner owner.
Nobody owes your slacker ass anything. You're young, smart and full of potential. Do it yourself. Nobody's gonna do it for you


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Phred]
    #4699934 - 09/23/05 12:06 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So it would be better if he weren't to do those good deeds?


If it means we catch him sooner then yes. Didn't Gacy's "good deeds" help keep him from suspicion?

That doesn't change the fact that a good deed which otherwise would not be done has been done. I ask again -- is it better to not do the good deed at all?


If you are doing your "good deeds" to assist you in getting away with murder then no.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: Fuck WalMart [Re: Alex213]
    #4702576 - 09/23/05 11:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I presume by "forcibly" you mean the government? Even tho taxation is perfectly legal and any political party is perfectly free to stand on a "no-taxation" ticket?



The legality of an action is no measure of it's being moral, just or efficient. Your questions have no bearing on my original query.

Quote:

I think it's more that people have learned to question the motives of private business.



*** Sigh *** that is assumed in my question and adds nothing. The point is, why don't the same people question the motives of those in government? Why is it that those who like to forcibly take money from other people to pay for charity are somehow considered by some to be more noble than private business people who dispense their own companies' funds to charity? There is no sacrifice, no moral action in forcing another to pay for charity. It's really quite a simple concept, people who give of their own free will hold a much higher moral ground than those who force others to give, regardless of the legality of their actions.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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