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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Fuck Recycling
    #4698324 - 09/23/05 01:16 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This Fall, school kids across the country will again be taught a chief doctrine in the civic religion: recycle, not only because you fear the police but also because you love the planet. They come home well prepared to be the enforcers of the creed against parents who might inadvertently let a foil ball into the glass bin or overlook a plastic wrapper in the aluminum bin.

Oh, I used to believe in recycling, and I still believe in the other two Rs: reducing and reusing. But recycling? It's a waste of time, money, and ever scarce resources. What John Tierney wrote in the New York Times nearly 10 years ago is still true: "Recycling may be the most wasteful activity in modern America."

Reduce and reuse makes sense. With no investment in resources I can place the plastic grocery bag in the bathroom garbage can and save a penny or so for some more pressing need. Reducing and reusing are free market activities that are an absolute profitable investment of time and labor.

Any astute entrepreneur will see the benefit of conserving factors of production. Houses are built today with much, much less wood than homes built just 20 years ago; and they are built sturdier, for the most part anyway. The decision to reduce wood in houses was not prompted by a green's love for trees; it was a reaction to the increasing cost for wood products.

Using less wood makes financial sense and any entrepreneur worth his profit will change his recipe to conserve wood through better design or by substituting less dear materials for wood products.

A recent Mises article, Ethanol and the Calculation Issue, discussed the inability to calculate the true cost of producing Ethanol. No one can calculate the cost of all the factors of production in the direction from the highest order labor and land down to the lowest order. Ethanol at the pump, though the Chicago School, Keynesians, etc., would certainly give the calculation the old college try. Absent government supports, the cost of Ethanol at the pump reveals the true economic cost of producing that fuel.

The same applies to recycling. What is the true cost of all factors involved in the recycling activity? I haven't a clue. Though using Misesian logic I know that the costs of recycling exceed the benefits. This is the simple result of the observation that recycling doesn't return a financial profit.

I used to recycle. It paid. As a child living in the Pittsburgh area, I would clean used glass containers. After collecting a sufficient amount of glass, my father would drive the three or so miles to the local glass factory where the owner gladly exchanged cleaned waste glass for dollars. It this instance I was an entrepreneur investing factors of production in order to turn dirty waste glass into capital. The value of the exchange exceeded my preference for time, elbow grease, and my parents' soap, water, and auto fuel. (Of course all of my exchanges against my parents' resources were high on my preference list, but that's another issue altogether).

What's wrong with recycling? The answer is simple; it doesn't pay. And since it doesn't pay it is an inefficient use of the time, money, and scarce resources. That's right, as Mises would have argued: let prices be your guide. Prices are essential to evaluate actions ex post. If the accounting of a near past event reveals a financial loss, the activity was a waste of both the entrepreneur's and society's scarce resources.

I'm supposed to believe that I need to invest resources into cleaning and sorting all sorts of recyclable materials for no compensation. And this is considered economically efficient? In some local communities--many thousands of which have recycling progreams--residents have to pay extra so that a company will recycle their paper, plastic, and glass. The recycling bins come with a per-month fee.

In other areas, such as my township, the garbage company profits at the mercy of the political class. The trustees in my township specified that in order to win the waste removal contract, the winning company has to provide recycling bins. Further, they have to send a special truck around to empty those neatly packed bins and deliver them to companies that have no pressing need for these unraw materials. The recycling bins are ostensibly free, but in reality their cost is bundled into my monthly waste removal bill.

Since there is no market for recyclable materials, at least no market sufficient to at least return my investment in soap and water, not to mention time and labor, I conclude that there is no pressing need for recycling. If landfills were truly in short supply then the cost of dumping waste would quickly rise. I would then see the financial benefit to reducing my waste volume, and since the recycling bin does not count toward waste volume, the more in the recycling bin, the less in the increasingly expensive garbage cans. Prices drive entrepreneurial calculations and, hence, human action. Recycling is no different.

Come on now, there can't be any benefit to even the neoclassical society if you actually have to pay someone to remove recyclables.

That recycling doesn't pay signifies that resources devoted to recycling activities would be better utilized in other modes of production. Instead of wasting resources on recycling, it would be more prudent to invest that money so that new recipes could be created to better conserve scarce materials in the production process.

Human action guides resources toward the activities that meet the most pressing needs. This movement of resources means that those activities that don't meet pressing needs are relatively expensive. Why? Those activities have to bid for factors of production along with the profitable activities ? activities that are meeting the most pressing needs. The profitable activities will drive the cost of those scarce factors upward leading to financial ruin for those activities that don't satisfy the most pressing needs. Forced recycling is such a failed activity.

The concept of lost materials is fraught with errors. Glass headed to the landfills will sit quietly awaiting someone to desire its value. The glass is not going anywhere, and should glass become as dear as gold or even something less dear, you can bet that entrepreneurs would begin mining landfills for all those junked glass bottles, not to mention plastic, aluminum, etc.

The only caveat to this train of thought is what Rothbard wrote about when he discussed psychic profit: the perceived benefit one gets from performing an action, even if that action leads to an economic loss.

Who reaps the real psychic reward from recycling? The statist do-gooder and the obsessed conservationist. Since recycling is now a statist goal, the do-gooders and greens force the cost of recycling on the unsuspecting masses by selling recycling as a pseudo-spiritual activity. In addition to these beneficiaries, there are those who have not considered the full costs of recycling, but their psychic benefit is more ephemeral than real. The other winners are the companies that do the collecting and process the materials, an industry that is sustained by mandates at the local level.




Make Rothbard your teacher: $40

If recycling at a financial loss leads you to greater psychic profit, then recycle, recycle, recycle. Let your personal preferences guide your actions, but don't force your preference schedule on others who have a different preference rank for their own actions. And, do not delude yourself into thinking that you are economizing anything; you are simply increasing your psychic profit at the expense of a more rational investment. But, hey, your actions are your business; just don't force your preferences to be my business.

Oh, and don't tell my children half the recycling story. Remember Hazlitt and turn over the second and third stone before drawing an economic conclusion.



http://www.mises.org/story/1911


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: z@z.com]
    #4698650 - 09/23/05 02:00 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

This guy seems to overlook the liklihood that having lots of landfills and waste overcrowding the planet will suck and make life worse for lots of people. What good is economy and effiency if we are all getting sick, destroy the natural world or run out of space? This person sounds like Ayn Rand.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4698745 - 09/23/05 02:20 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
This guy seems to overlook the liklihood that having lots of landfills and waste overcrowding the planet will suck and make life worse for lots of people. What good is economy and effiency if we are all getting sick, destroy the natural world or run out of space? This person sounds like Ayn Rand.



Exactly. You bring up one of my main points. As a Libertarian I believe that the government should only intervene when force is initiated on another. We need to work towards defining when exactly that happens. I thought the title might just give us a few extra responses.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,380
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: z@z.com]
    #4699432 - 09/23/05 09:07 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't this the same guy who wrote the article in Phreds "Fuck Wallmart" thread?

Anyway I read this article a while ago and yeah, he seems a little confused about how easy it is to just sweep our garbage under the metaphorical rug.

It says nothing of sustainability, either. The materials we take from the Earth are not infinite, and some are always in short supply. Recycling makes perfect logical sense in this light - why throw something away (and have to dig up something new) when you can reuse it?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: z@z.com]
    #4700080 - 09/23/05 12:32 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Since there is no market for recyclable materials, at least no market sufficient to at least return my investment in soap and water, not to mention time and labor, I conclude that there is no pressing need for recycling.

This guy is joking, right?

There is no market?

First, soap, water and labor are no longer prerequisites for
recycling...a little time, maybe, putting the banana peel
in one can and the aluminum in another.

He might want to tell my uncle that who has made a pretty
penny setting up a recycling program in Reno.

He pulls in paper, cardboard and glass, sorts, bails and
then ships it off to Weyerhaeuser for a great profit.

Weyerhaeuser then turns it into 'less dear material' and
other products.

This guy is either strikingly ignorant of the topic which
he has chosen to berate or is being purposefully disingenuous
for the sake of expelling more hot air.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: afoaf]
    #4700117 - 09/23/05 12:41 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Ya, this guy's a joke. Reminds me of my hardcore libertarian phase where ideology took precedence over rationality. Too bad not everyone grows out of it.


--------------------


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: Silversoul]
    #4700165 - 09/23/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

it's arguable that the process would not be sustainable
without some level of subsidization.

I believe the collectors get a bump to support the bins
and additional collection, but I don't think it's an
exorbitant amount.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: Silversoul]
    #4700199 - 09/23/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Reminds me of my hardcore libertarian phase where ideology took precedence over rationality. Too bad not everyone grows out of it.




As a hardcore and irrational libertarian ideologue, I take offense to that.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 11 years, 27 days
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: afoaf]
    #4700232 - 09/23/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

So you want this guy to do the work so that he can make no profit? He pays to rent the container, he pays to have it picked up, and he spends time separating it. If he doesnt' do this, he gets a fine. And for him doing all of this, your uncle makes money? How about you come and cut some wood for me, split it, stack it, load it in the truck, unload it at client sites and I'll keep all of the money?

Not that I think the article is correct, but he does have a point. Your say "No no, my uncle is rich from it" doesn't make it any more financially logical for the average citizen.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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Offlinescribble
Stranger
Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 86
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4700234 - 09/23/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

even though I only read half the article this line caught my attention

Quote:

Though using Misesian logic I know that the costs of recycling exceed the benefits.




It looks to me that he's saying he has no proof.


--------------------
Mahayana Buddhist tradition tells how Buddha lived on one hemp seed a day.
This was enough to sustain him during the six steps of asceticism leading to his Enlightenment.
In recent centuries, higher doses have been favoured.


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
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Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4700321 - 09/23/05 01:49 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

where did he say he gets fined for not recycling?

I missed that.

how much time do you collectively spend each month
seperating your recyclables?

I recycle regularly and I can say that it probably
accounts for about 5 minutes of extra time each month
between putting the stuff in a different container
and having an additional can to take to the curb.

I won't add the extra $3 I spent on the can into that
equation because it seems so trivial, but then again
so does whining about the minimal additional cost
rolled into his monthly bill for bin rental.

Re-read my post, I took issue with his assinine claim
that there was no market for recycled materials and
that this was all just a sham and waste of time.

There clearly is a range of markets for recycled
materials. If there weren't then all those billions
of cans and bottles collected over the years would be
sitting in a hole somewhere along with a lot of bankrupt
waste removal services.

Your firewood example is flawed.

The fact of the matter is that you do inherently benefit
from recycling, and, as I pointed out earlier, recycling
really ain't that difficult...especially when compared
to chopping wood.

Much of those materials are repurposed into packaging
and products that are used as inputs into the finished
products you buy, improving efficiency, reducing costs
and generating all the great economic side effects of
such things....lower prices, more money, increased
employment and so on.

All just because you sucked it up and put the glass
into the blue can!


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 11 years, 27 days
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: afoaf]
    #4700358 - 09/23/05 02:01 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
where did he say he gets fined for not recycling?




That is how it works in my community.
Quote:


how much time do you collectively spend each month
seperating your recyclables?




The issue that I have is that I used to collect newspapers for recycling, I used to save my cans for recycling and I used to save my glass for recycling. I did this all in bulk and took it to the recycling center once a year or so and ended up with a few hundred dollars for it. Now what do I end up with? I have to recycle, I have to PAY for it, and I don't get any sort of compensation for my work. People aren't allowed to recycle their own goods in my community. I hope your uncle likes his new Porsche.
Quote:


The fact of the matter is that you do inherently benefit
from recycling, and, as I pointed out earlier, recycling
really ain't that difficult...especially when compared
to chopping wood.




It's difficult for me to swallow the "Hey, we need to save the environment! So we'll be taking materials from you that we can profit from and we'll give you, ah, well, hah, a warm fuzzy feeling deep down". I did used to recycle when it was profitable for me. I still do now but it's because I'm compelled to do so and now I don't get anything for it. As a matter of fact, I have to pay to do it!
Quote:


All just because you sucked it up and put the glass
into the blue can!




I had 15 55 gallon barrels in my basement filled with bottles, glass and aluminum, and four large truckfulls of newspaper each year to take to get recycled. As I said, I made money for it, so whats the problem? Do you want to go to WalMart and say "OK, I'll take this useful, valued material from you, and for that privledge, you can pay me 15$", or do you go in and purchase what you want?


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4700395 - 09/23/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

well, your system blows.

maybe that's the disconnect.

here, it's optional.

here, you can still take your stuff to the
recycling center and get payed.

here, there are no fines.

the US wins again!

; ]

(mndfreeze)


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineMagicalMystery
turn off yourmind

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Here, there and everywher...
Last seen: 11 years, 27 days
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: afoaf]
    #4700430 - 09/23/05 02:27 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I'm in the USA. Start throwing all of your cans away and see how long it takes before oyu get a fine.


--------------------

"Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest."
From the Declaration of the Continental Congress

"We can have peace and security only as long as we band together to preserve that most priceless possession, our inheritance of European blood."
Charles A. Lindbergh,"Aviation, Geography, and Race", Reader's Digest, Nov. 1939

"We must secure the existance of our people and a future for White children."
David Lane


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4700608 - 09/23/05 03:11 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Start throwing all of your cans away and see how long it takes before oyu get a fine.




I do. I've never used the recycling bins except when the garbage cans are too full and I have to use the recycling bins as garbage cans. But most of the times those garbage men wont take the recycling bin garbage so I have to wait until the next week.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: afoaf]
    #4700878 - 09/23/05 04:09 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
well, your system blows.

maybe that's the disconnect.

here, it's optional.





Read my "My city looks through people's trash" thread in the Pub.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: z@z.com]
    #4701014 - 09/23/05 04:36 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

This article is 1% inspiration, and 99% defication.


People should be paid for the service of sorting their recyclables, and in most cases it is profitable to someone up the line. By his own logic this results in lower prices for the individual.


--------------------


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: MagicalMystery]
    #4701020 - 09/23/05 04:38 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

People aren't allowed to recycle their own goods in my community.





Can you explain to me how the government is preventing you from recycling your own goods for a profit?


--------------------


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: z@z.com]
    #4701511 - 09/23/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

this article proves something ive long suspected.

Many, many people are Very, very stupid.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2,213
Loc: city of angels
Re: Fuck Recycling [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4702065 - 09/23/05 08:53 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

This guy sounds like he comes from the Ann Coulter school of "I'll say anything, no matter how incorrect, to piss off liberals and use my own very narrow experiances to explain myself; and still get paid for it."


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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