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InvisibleNewbie
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Thoroughlly confused...
    #4687515 - 09/20/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I've been an atheist all my life. I just don't believe in god, heaven, Satan, hell...it all seems like it's fiction written in attempt to make humans live happier and healthier lives.

I don't have a problem with believers but I don't want them telling me I'm wrong. I'm neither right or wrong, and so are they. One belief can't outweigh another unless there's more truth behind it and neither atheist or religious can prove their belief true. That being said...

Just because I'm atheist doesn't make me a bad person. I still have morals and I still want to lead a good life and make people happy. This is where the religious people come in: If there turns out to be a god when I die, will he look at me and say, "You didn't believe in me, go to hell"? or will he recognize that even though I had trouble believing but still led a good life, that I don't deserve eternal damnation in hell? I'm confused and I'd like some opinions on those with more experience with this sort of thing.

It kind of sounds like I'm refusing to believe until the last minutes of my life when it really counts, but that's not it at all. I'm just saying what if...what if all my beliefs are completely wrong and the heavens really do exist? What will become of me?


Edited by Newbie (09/20/05 09:29 PM)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4687522 - 09/20/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Its unlikely that you will experience your own death, because by that time you will be, well, dead. So no, I wouldn't worry about some stern judge at the end of the tunnel.


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InvisibleLazyGnome
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4687532 - 09/20/05 09:32 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I hate when people try to convert me and shit  :thumbdown:


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Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, olny taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pcleas. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by ilstef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

"Everything that we know and understand comes down to perception, and by altering this perception we shake everything we know. All that you and I can know and understand is what we can see smell hear think touch and so on, and when something like mushrooms or salvia alters this steady perception, it can break reality permanently." - Dihnekis


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4687569 - 09/20/05 09:42 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It sounds like you are more of an agnostic than an athiest...I don't think most atheists would ponder about the possibility that they may meet a God when they die. It appears as if you've already accepted that as a possibility and thus would be more accurately described as Agnostic (undecided).

I am agnostic - I'm not sure true knowledge of a diety is possible, but I won't rule out the possibility. I have no first-hand evidence, experience, or knowledge that would point towards the existence of a Creator...but again I won't rule out the possibility.

I think that, if there is a God and he/she/it is something at least similar to what most major religions think (a being who reisdes over the after-life, and will judge each of us worthy to enter or not), that this God would not be so petty to toss you in hell just because you weren't steadfast in your belief of him. I think if you lead a good life, a moral life, any God that may exist won't have a problem with you!


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BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4687579 - 09/20/05 09:44 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Well, after stating that no ones belief is right or wrong, you want opinions so you will know what to believe.

It's a best guess for all of us.

I say follow your heart.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: LazyGnome]
    #4687894 - 09/20/05 10:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not trying to convert you (or maybe I am), but I am curious on your standpoint.

Do you believe in an energy ( or force or power) that is greater than your self or connected to your self?

Do you believe that us humans are the most intelligent and the greatest beings in this universe?

Do you believe that we are totally autonomous and independent from the rest of the universe?

I see it as close minded to have an unshakeable belief in God and Heaven and Hell and the whole lot without being able to explain or even understand the nature of these things.

Yet I also see it as close minded to have an unshakeable belief that God and Heaven and Hell DO NOT exist. Especially if one doesn't have a thorough understanding of what they are not only rejecting the idea of, but also blindly believing that these things do not exist (which I am not accusing anyone of).

Thats my two cents.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4687924 - 09/20/05 11:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I stay awake at night worrying about whether the Greek gods are waiting for me to die, creating a high mountain and heavy boulder just to punish my insolence.

No, not really. I wouldn't worry about modern mythology anymore than I'd worry about mythology past.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleNewbie
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Buddha1]
    #4687931 - 09/20/05 11:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

1)No
2)Definitely not
3)Seems to be...i mean we're surviving without the help of some alien or something


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Invisiblerod
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4687951 - 09/20/05 11:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I,m not going to preach God, or anything, when I was in my 20,s
I use to think there couldn,t be a higher spirit, but the older I get,
the more I know, that for me, there has to be, you have to find
what works best in your life :thumbup:


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4689712 - 09/21/05 12:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Very Important question:

What is the definition of the word "God"?

Only once you define the word can you argue its existence.

Personally, I dont believe in the christian image of god. It would be hard to say that there is anything that I totally believe in. But there is definitely an energy in the universe that makes cells multiply and grow. There is something that connects all living things. How could you take seeds from a plant, and grow them from something so simple to something so complex? How do a sperm and egg create new life? If I somehow made a seed or a sperm or egg from scratch (raw chemicals), it would have no life. How does life come into being? And dont answer DNA and genes and stuff. If anyone truly understood DNA and genes then they would be able to create life from scratch. What keeps an atom from falling apart, or from falling apart from eachother. There is obviously an energy there keeping things in order.

I used to hear people preeching about God and I thought they were ignorant for believing something that they could not explain or understand in its totality.

But now I see that when they say God they are talking about this energy which exists everywhere and which governs life. The mythology aspect just helps people understand things in a certain way. Whether or not the myths are true is irrelevant. The relevant thing is the way that people view our world and life itself. The bottom line is that the world is and will always be a mystery (at least for us humans). There is no way that us humans in our present state could understand the totality of the universe and the mechanics of life. So in my view, God is life, God is the energy that keeps cells muliplying and keeps atoms spinning. Its all in how you look at it. And it is important to keep in mind that no view of our world or life itself could ever come close to the true nature of these things.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Ravus]
    #4689838 - 09/21/05 01:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I stay awake at night worrying about whether the Greek gods are waiting for me to die, creating a high mountain and heavy boulder just to punish my insolence.

No, not really. I wouldn't worry about modern mythology anymore than I'd worry about mythology past.




HAHA! Good point

I think it's pretty unlikely that any high and merciful universal diety would punish you because you chose not to follow artificially constructed theological dogmas. And if they did, then that's not the type of God that deserves to be worshipped. I'd rather go party with the devil in hell, get hungover for the rest of eternity and catch spiritual STD's in the bottomless orgy pit.

God wants your life to be fulfilling, he doesn't want you to worship him.

Honestly though, I think that judgement in the afterlife is a fallicious concept, and i wouldn't worry about it at all.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4689864 - 09/21/05 01:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If you(and many others) are wrong, then it will depend on who's right. You may burn forever in eternal damnation, or you may come back as Ann Coulter.

Get yourself a god and have something more to look to in life. Religion can be a great tool to better yourself. Just don't go all fundamentalist and start blowing shit up.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: dr0mni]
    #4690244 - 09/21/05 02:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
I stay awake at night worrying about whether the Greek gods are waiting for me to die, creating a high mountain and heavy boulder just to punish my insolence.

No, not really. I wouldn't worry about modern mythology anymore than I'd worry about mythology past.




HAHA! Good point

I think it's pretty unlikely that any high and merciful universal diety would punish you because you chose not to follow artificially constructed theological dogmas. And if they did, then that's not the type of God that deserves to be worshipped. I'd rather go party with the devil in hell, get hungover for the rest of eternity and catch spiritual STD's in the bottomless orgy pit.

God wants your life to be fulfilling, he doesn't want you to worship him.

Honestly though, I think that judgement in the afterlife is a fallicious concept, and i wouldn't worry about it at all.




I agree with your first point, but then suddenly your second point addresses "God" as something real.

Looking at human history, we've had many gods. We've had angels, pantheons of gods, unifying forces, mystical energies, quite omnipotent and all-knowing versions of God, and possibly so many other types of mythology I couldn't write them all down in a book. Since we lack any evidence that the modern spiritual concepts of deities, energies or unifying forces are any truer than those from the past, why do you still believe in the modern one? How do the past views of humanity influence you, seeing as your view will one day be a past view that may be looked at as ridiculous under the change of a new religion or philosophy?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Ravus]
    #4690573 - 09/21/05 04:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I was an atheist/agnostic for my whole life up until my conversion at age 30, that was five years ago. Before my conversion I attempted to live decently (treat others as I would like to be treated), I think this is very similar to you.

You state that "just because I'm an atheist doesn't make me a bad person, ..I have morals..."and then further statements to the effect that your act of believing can justify you before God. These statements imply that you believe that man is justified based on some work being performed, such as being moral or exercising an act of faith. This is an impossibility, man is NEVER justified based on personal human merit. Any person who believes that a human action can
bring or maintain a justified state does not believe the one and only gospel that saves. What must be understood is that man's best efforts at righteousness are as filthy rags in the sight of an infinitely Holy God, and ONLY perfection, the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, is the sole and only righteousness that can justify. He ALONE justified all those that were given to Him by the Father from before the foundation of the world.

Oh that you might be given a sense of the weight of your unrighteousness, that you may become heavy burdened, thirsting for a righteousness that you can not produce, that you may see Jesus Christ. Oh that the righteousness of God might be revealed into your soul and you may understand what sin, righteousness and judgment REALLY mean. These things are not understood be mere intellectual understanding, but are revealed by God the Holy Spirit directly into the soul.

You ask what will become of you if your beliefs are completely wrong when you die. The scriptures are quite clear that those who hold to false beliefs about God (idolaters) will suffer eternal damnation in a place of unspeakable torments. But isn't God love? Why such extreme punishment? God is love, but God is also righteous and just. Justice, which demands punishment, can not be diminished. But despite this, God sent Christ to suffer that punishment on behalf of His people, so he might be remain just and at the same time be a justifier and magnify His mercy. So all His attributes might be manifested, and He might be glorified.

Man always will try to think that they can find justification in personal merits. The offense of the gospel is that the best works, especially religious works, are an abomination, and the only acceptable work is that of Christ ALONE. This is why most hate the true gospel, it testifies of the depravity and ruination of man, how he is incapable of doing ANYTHING due to the Fall, and is wholey and completely at the mercy of God for the fate of their souls. Repent from wickedness and believe the ONE and ONLY gospel.


Edited by fivepointer (09/21/05 04:38 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: fivepointer]
    #4690613 - 09/21/05 04:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

:drooling: :rofl2: :whocares:  Check your new rating. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/21/05 04:43 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: fivepointer]
    #4690633 - 09/21/05 04:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Since our actions create a greater effect in the world around us than our beliefs, I find it laughable that one would think that it is belief which "justifies" us, whatever that means. But the more obvious conclusion is that we need not justify our existence. We simply are.


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Offlineqhr0me
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: rod]
    #4690678 - 09/21/05 04:58 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

rod said:
you have to find what works best in your life




i'm with rod, gotta keep looking. been an atheist/agnostic worshipping at the altar of goddess science for 30 years of my life until i realized scientific materialism isn't going to get me anywhere. after that i spent 5 years (and will likely spend all my remaining years on this godforsaken planetoid) trying to figure out who the hell i really am. good luck to me there, i know... prolly gonna end up like this guy!-)

thus far, after much turmoil and reading and what not, i resonate best with rinzai zen methods of discovering the self, but i continue to be open to all sorts of ideas. in fact, that's why i'm here, trying to figure out if it's worth playing with psychedelix.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: qhr0me]
    #4690702 - 09/21/05 05:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It's worth it. :laugh: But you won't find anything. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4690817 - 09/21/05 05:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

NewbieShroomie said:

One belief can't outweigh another unless there's more truth behind it and neither atheist or religious can prove their belief true.





I think the point of spirituality is lost the second you attempt to prove it to someone else. Truth is what is true for you, truth isnt defined by how many people you can prove it to.... in a spiritual sense.
If you sit around waiting for spirituality or God to be proven to you and refuse to take an active role in finding your own truth, then you have only yourself to blame for your confusion.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Thoroughlly confused... [Re: Newbie]
    #4690863 - 09/21/05 05:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

NewbieShroomie said:
I've been an atheist all my life. I just don't believe in god, heaven, Satan, hell...it all seems like it's fiction written in attempt to make humans live happier and healthier lives.

I don't have a problem with believers but I don't want them telling me I'm wrong. I'm neither right or wrong, and so are they. One belief can't outweigh another unless there's more truth behind it and neither atheist or religious can prove their belief true. That being said...

Just because I'm atheist doesn't make me a bad person. I still have morals and I still want to lead a good life and make people happy. This is where the religious people come in: If there turns out to be a god when I die, will he look at me and say, "You didn't believe in me, go to hell"? or will he recognize that even though I had trouble believing but still led a good life, that I don't deserve eternal damnation in hell? I'm confused and I'd like some opinions on those with more experience with this sort of thing.

It kind of sounds like I'm refusing to believe until the last minutes of my life when it really counts, but that's not it at all. I'm just saying what if...what if all my beliefs are completely wrong and the heavens really do exist? What will become of me?




A dreamer.. :P


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